Originally posted by RajCaj

You guys are getting all butt-hurt over simple words.....

 

The point is....Blizzard did something with World of Warcraft that none of the other MMORPGs before it has been able to do....main stream MMORPG gaming for the largest sub-section of the gaming audience.  Blizzard has been able to take a very complex form of gaming (for gaming enthusiasts) and turn it into something that the "everyday gamer" can jump in / out of easily.  They done this by creating a MMORPG thats casual friendly, using a gear based linear progression model.

It's the quest / dungeon crawling focus, in addition to casual friendly game mechanics (light death penalty, quick & easy travel, short cycled game experiences) that has been the major difference between WOW and all the MMORPGs before it.  It's also these traits that we see many other game companies try to make their game in the image of, is the reason we refer to them as WOW Clones.

So its not the "borrowed" fantasy game setting, or even the level based progression system that people are refering to when they use the word WOW Clone.....its the whole "EZ Mode Linear Progression to satisfy the masses" that warrents the title.

I would have written several paragraphs to describe what you so eloquently summarized in a single one.  It really does come down to this and not to specific mechanics borrowed from one place or another, but rather how they're implemented in the overall gaming experience.

Originally posted by alyndale

To some degree, just about all mmo's created after 2003 have some affinity with EverQuest, DAoC, Ultima Online, and ect. World of Warcraft is not and has never been 100% unique. Most mmo's worth their "snuff" have something they can claim as their own design. But, frankly the term, "WoW Clone" is meant to be deragatory in nature and thus, in my eyes, not worth the time to take seriously. Remember the top execs now at Blizzard were once just devs that played EverQuest religiously. The theory-crafting you see now was first experimented with in EverQuest by these guys.

I really do not care if a game mimicks WoW because WoW mimicked EverQuest and those games that the devs played while they were working on WoW itself. Therefore when I read a post that claims that Game X is a clone of WoW and should not be played, well I just grin and go for it anyway. You see, it is more important for me to see good competition in this market rather than experience the "dead air" of no games at all.  This year we should see a couple more mmo's emerge and it is my wish that they ALL do well. By 2012, we'll see even more opportunities for us to expand our "gaming horizons" a bit. I say good show and keep'em coming. Competition is a healthy thing. Monopoly is stagnation and none of us want to continue to experience that.

Play the game you enjoy and do not take subjective name-calling too seriously!

 

Alyn

 I refer you to my post above.  Atleast for me, when I say WOW Clone, I'm not talking about specific individual features that may (or may not) have been taken from a previous game....I'm talking about the game as a whole....as it exists as a casual friendly MMORPG that has a very linear & repetitive core to its game functionality.

To me, WOW Clone is synonomous with "Linear Progression Themepark MMO"...its just easier to say and more recognizable to more people...because of WOW's mass appeal.

By the way, WOW Clone is only a negative term for those people who do not enjoy Linear Progression Themepark MMOs.  For those people who like that sort of thing, then its a perfectly fine gaming choice.

And your right, competition is a healthy thing.......something we haven't had in this genere for some time now.  We have plenty of titles to chose from...and there is competition among titles.  World of Warcraft occupies over 60% of the MMORPG marketshare.  WOW's casual friendly / linear progression model is what allows WOW to have 60% of the MMORPG marketshare, so the majority of the AAA publishers are trying to mimic WOW's model to gain access to this specific gamer demographic. So while we have PLENTY of competition between titles out there.....there is little real competition in the overall game experience in the MMO space of gaming.

WoW and games like WoW are a subgenre. The most popular and most mainstream subgenre. They have fast paced action combat. They are linear. They are themparks with no or few sandbox features. Fast levelling and questbased levelling. No HDP.  They focus on farming items in instances. They are often lobby games with ques and instance finders.

Of course they could be called WoW clones. But any other name would also work.

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

But don't be disappointed, I believe that although everyone will be motivated by money. MMO that was build from the WOW Clone style will eventually be patched with the developers new and renovated ideas. Or atleast they should.

IF they are smart, they will use WOW Clones to get the millions of WOW players interested, get those players to play and pay for a month, then the patch they bring and expansions they put in next, will bring those renovated ideas that further distanced themselves from the WOW mentality. Becoming a new game through patches and expansions. Satisfying the Investors, as well as satsifying and bringing in new players by the masses.

Oops, I hope i didn't ruin any developers surprises..

Originally posted by Lucioon

But don't be disappointed, I believe that although everyone will be motivated by money. MMO that was build from the WOW Clone style will eventually be patched with the developers new and renovated ideas. Or atleast they should.

IF they are smart, they will use WOW Clones to get the millions of WOW players interested, get those players to play and pay for a month, then the patch they bring and expansions they put in next, will bring those renovated ideas that further distanced themselves from the WOW mentality. Becoming a new game through patches and expansions. Satisfying the Investors, as well as satsifying and bringing in new players by the masses.

Oops, I hope i didn't ruin any developers surprises..

 I understand your line of thinking, but I don't think it works quite like that...

Your suggestion is exactly what the big game companies have been trying to do over the last 5+ years, with Rift being the most successful.  The idea is that you provide for a familiar enough of an experience that the gamers don't get culture shock, but difirentiate yourself just enough to create an insentive to play.  Rift is WOW with some slight enhancements to class builds & public grouping.  Both of those major innovations are two ways that Rift is DIFFERENT than WOW.....yet it delivers the same game experience as World of Warcraft (casual linear gear based progression....driven by quest lines & instanced dungeons).

Your idea is that we can eventually get innovation in the industry by slowly baiting & switching the customer base as a whole to get them headed in a different MMO direction.  It's a nice thought, but I don't think it works....and heres why...

Making any changes to a MMO that fundamentally changes it from the current formula to something different, like the sandbox formula, will alienate too big a piece of the playerbase and game companies won't touch it.  Star Wars: TOR will not feature things such as a Free For All Combat system, Full Loot Death Penalty, Player Crafted Best in Slot system, or any other virtual world system because on a fundamental basis, it contradicts the MMO methodology that needs to be in place to make MMO gaming "fun" for the masses.

So you CAN make small changes to a game to expose players to new game dynamics.....SO LONG as those dynamics agree with the Linear Themepark MMO model. (As in Rift)  However, you won't see any major changes coming from the big game companies if those changes undermine what has turned out to be the very tired gear / reputation grind system we've had since WOW's success.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

Yes, the market is over saturated. Thats why it cant continue like this forever. Companies that spend money creating "WoW clones" will learn and change when they cant earn as much money and get as much profit as they expected. Sooner or later big companies and investors will give up creating WoW clones.

Nothing can last forever. And I very much believe there will be MMO:s in the future that are not in any way "WoW clones". When WoW starts to really lose subcribers some time in the future everyone will recognize it. And investors will no longer be interested.

But perhaps a indie company that can release a good fun game with OK polish and few bugs can change everything. Its not impossible even if most of them fail. Someone with real talent that release the right game at the right time.

No such thing as a WoW clone, simply because noone has come close to actually making a game remotely like WoW. They try to, but fail. One does not simply clone into Mordor.

And to clone WoW you can't just copy it's graphics and gameplay, oh no, you must capture the feeling of playing WoW vanilla, and that is something noone can recapture, except Blizzard Entertainment themselves... They traded that feeling for money and power from Activision, but the true creators do still wield that magical feeling deep down in their black hearts.

Originally posted by labryinth

No such thing as a WoW clone, simply because noone has come close to actually making a game remotely like WoW. They try to, but fail. One does not simply clone into Mordor.

 

And to clone WoW you can't just copy it's graphics and gameplay, oh no, you must capture the feeling of playing WoW vanilla, and that is something noone can recapture, except Blizzard Entertainment themselves... They traded that feeling for money and power from Activision, but the true creators do still wield that magical feeling deep down in their black hearts.

 if i wanted to play WoW, I'd just play WoW..

WoW has years of content added to it, that no brand new "clone" can compete with... but they keep trying

Theres plenty of older MMOs that could be "cloned" that i would love to play...  I'm holding my breath .....

My take on it is that people can clearly see that games borrow from other games, and WoW isn't the only game that new games borrow from, it just happens to be the most visibile, and happens to be the one that most people have played; and I don't think people have issues with the comparison itself. I can't speak for everyone, but I know when I read someone calling a game a "wow-clone," to me, it gives off an aura and elitism and pompousness that I generally find distasteful, and misplaced when discussing video games.

I'm against censorship, so  would never tell anyone to stop posting like that, etc, but I am also free to disregard any post where I see the term "wow-clone" used. I'm not saying I do, but I also feel like most of the time, when the term is used to describe a game, it isn't painting the full picture.

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

Yes, the market is over saturated. Thats why it cant continue like this forever. Companies that spend money creating "WoW clones" will learn and change when they cant earn as much money and get as much profit as they expected. Sooner or later big companies and investors will give up creating WoW clones.

Nothing can last forever. And I very much believe there will be MMO:s in the future that are not in any way "WoW clones". When WoW starts to really lose subcribers some time in the future everyone will recognize it. And investors will no longer be interested.

But perhaps a indie company that can release a good fun game with OK polish and few bugs can change everything. Its not impossible even if most of them fail. Someone with real talent that release the right game at the right time.

 I think SW:TOR will determine how it shakes out.  If SW:TOR is a success, the lesson the big game publishers will get out of all this is that they just didn't spend enough money before.  It will set a precident in the industry that in order to have a successful MMORPG in this highly competitive industry...you must spend 400+ million dollars.....further creating a situation where game companies are afraid to experiment in gaming unless it taps into the majority of the playerbase.

If SW:TOR fails.....then I think the big publishers will go back to creating RPGs on the console, or look for the other "next big thing".  Companies still in the MMO space will figure out a way to lower the cost to produce a MMO and allow for more varied experiences for smaller niche groups.  Indie developers get more traction having not to battle half a billion dolar budgets.

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

Yes, the market is over saturated. Thats why it cant continue like this forever. Companies that spend money creating "WoW clones" will learn and change when they cant earn as much money and get as much profit as they expected. Sooner or later big companies and investors will give up creating WoW clones.

Nothing can last forever. And I very much believe there will be MMO:s in the future that are not in any way "WoW clones". When WoW starts to really lose subcribers some time in the future everyone will recognize it. And investors will no longer be interested.

But perhaps a indie company that can release a good fun game with OK polish and few bugs can change everything. Its not impossible even if most of them fail. Someone with real talent that release the right game at the right time.

 I think SW:TOR will determine how it shakes out.  If SW:TOR is a success, the lesson the big game publishers will get out of all this is that they just didn't spend enough money before.  It will set a precident in the industry that in order to have a successful MMORPG in this highly competitive industry...you must spend 400+ million dollars.....further creating a situation where game companies are afraid to experiment in gaming unless it taps into the majority of the playerbase.

If SW:TOR fails.....then I think the big publishers will go back to creating RPGs on the console, or look for the other "next big thing".  Companies still in the MMO space will figure out a way to lower the cost to produce a MMO and allow for more varied experiences for smaller niche groups.  Indie developers get more traction having not to battle half a billion dolar budgets.

wow, you got it all figured out.

A WoW clone to me is anything that mimicks Everquest-style mmos, where the combat focuses on clicking one of 50 skill boxes and autoattacking. I usually hate these types of games, as I get bored quickly with this laid-back style of combat. I've never really liked PVP in these types of MMOs due to level/gear coming into play, which throws off a pure skill vs skill fight (what I prefer). Not a fan of griefing, so that doesn't entertain me.

These days when I look for an MMO, I look for key words like "Fast, action, difficult" etc. If I look at a video and see boxes being clicked to attack a target, and at other times questing and grinding for most of the game, I see it as an everquest, or "WoW clone".  Laid back, slow-paced, and long.

A couple games I enjoyed for a while that I would NOT consider WoW clones are Vindictus and Planetside. I'm hoping for smaller, more fast-paced MMOs aimed at a different audience.

no offense meant to anybody. just my opinion on what type of games i like. take it easy

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

Yes, the market is over saturated. Thats why it cant continue like this forever. Companies that spend money creating "WoW clones" will learn and change when they cant earn as much money and get as much profit as they expected. Sooner or later big companies and investors will give up creating WoW clones.

Nothing can last forever. And I very much believe there will be MMO:s in the future that are not in any way "WoW clones". When WoW starts to really lose subcribers some time in the future everyone will recognize it. And investors will no longer be interested.

But perhaps a indie company that can release a good fun game with OK polish and few bugs can change everything. Its not impossible even if most of them fail. Someone with real talent that release the right game at the right time.

 I think SW:TOR will determine how it shakes out.  If SW:TOR is a success, the lesson the big game publishers will get out of all this is that they just didn't spend enough money before.  It will set a precident in the industry that in order to have a successful MMORPG in this highly competitive industry...you must spend 400+ million dollars.....further creating a situation where game companies are afraid to experiment in gaming unless it taps into the majority of the playerbase.

If SW:TOR fails.....then I think the big publishers will go back to creating RPGs on the console, or look for the other "next big thing".  Companies still in the MMO space will figure out a way to lower the cost to produce a MMO and allow for more varied experiences for smaller niche groups.  Indie developers get more traction having not to battle half a billion dolar budgets.

I agree. But I think there is also a third alternative. SW:TOR will not fail but it will not be a amazing success long term.

Perhaps they will sell 2.5 million boxes. After 3 months there will be 1.5 million subscribers. After 12 months 500K subcribers.

EA would probably officially call that a sucess and appear to be very proud and satisfied.

But it would not be a amazing success. It would prove that the game cant grow after release.  A really fantastic success would be. 2.5 million sold at release. 3.5 million after 3 months. 5 million after 12 months....

So I believe that there is a big chance SW:TOR will do OK. Investors will think profits are OK. But long term if we compare release numbers and the situation after 12 months it will not really be a success.

With the marketing and hype big companies can afford. Release sales and subscriptions the first months is often enough to satisfie the investors. And to give reasonable return of investment. But the game can still be far from successful long term.

If a game tries to copy the success of WOW by making a similar game, then it's a WOW-clone.

It doesn't matter if wow cloned eq.

Originally posted by Giblar

If a game tries to copy the success of WOW by making a similar game, then it's a WOW-clone.

 

It doesn't matter if wow cloned eq.

I think you just nailed right on the point.

Its only when the game succeeds in becoming a success like WOW that it can be called by any other name.

IF and only IF for example SWTOR holds a success after a year and surpasses the WOW subscribers, then  that  when all future games will be called SWTOR Clones. And thats what every MMO wants to become. The name that will be used before -clone

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by Lucioon

the term WOW clones exists because WOW currently is the longest standing MMO with the largest player base. WOW has become the most recognized term everywhere that has a internet. When it first came out, Ever Quest ( EQ ) was the most talked about, almost all the games was compared to EQ, everywhere you see and search for MMO you will see EQ clones, EQ has this already, EQ already done this, this graphic is better than EQ, this graphic is worst then EQ. EQ ruin lives, EQ this , EQ that. But that was still only in the community of MMO players at that time.

But when WOW took over, WOW broke through all media networks, Celebritys plays WOW, Grandmas Plays WOW, 3 years olds Play WOW. So now everything is compared to WOW. Its what everyone recongizes an genre for.

WOW is to MMO as Final Fantasy is to RPG

but Final Fantasy is a term that soon will be replaced by Mass Effect or Fallout , because if Square Enix doesn't step up and take charge. Everyone will refer to Western RPGs as standards for all other games to compare to.

WOW clones are not necessary a bad term, but instead its just been used negatively for alot of players.

And when there Exists a company that doesn't care about making money but instead of making break throughs in gaming, thats when we will start seeing new styles of content and a new style of MMO in the future.

 Sorry.....I hate to be the one that tells you, but most publicly traded game companies that know what they are doing are primarily motivated by money.  The folks who have the financial liberty to take big risks in developing original content in the MMO space are indie developers that don't have the cash to put in the level of polish most "average" MMO gamers have come to expect.

The guys with all the money for polish won't touch a game unless they have an opprotunity to tap into the kind of playerbase that WOW taps into every month, so if it's not a "WOW Clone" they don't want to have anything to do with it.

The guys that are doing new things in the MMO space can't get players to stick around longer than the free month they were given because the lack in funds create crappy animations & art, laggy performance from par level hardware, and a soundtrack laid down by a Yamaha keyboard instead of an award winning orchestra + composer.

While I think guys like the dude who created Minecraft are examples of how "Small folks" can change the industry....but for the most part, the people with the funds and brainpower to make real big sweeping changes are likely not to do so because it's too risky in this over saturated market.

Yes, the market is over saturated. Thats why it cant continue like this forever. Companies that spend money creating "WoW clones" will learn and change when they cant earn as much money and get as much profit as they expected. Sooner or later big companies and investors will give up creating WoW clones.

Nothing can last forever. And I very much believe there will be MMO:s in the future that are not in any way "WoW clones". When WoW starts to really lose subcribers some time in the future everyone will recognize it. And investors will no longer be interested.

But perhaps a indie company that can release a good fun game with OK polish and few bugs can change everything. Its not impossible even if most of them fail. Someone with real talent that release the right game at the right time.

 I think SW:TOR will determine how it shakes out.  If SW:TOR is a success, the lesson the big game publishers will get out of all this is that they just didn't spend enough money before.  It will set a precident in the industry that in order to have a successful MMORPG in this highly competitive industry...you must spend 400+ million dollars.....further creating a situation where game companies are afraid to experiment in gaming unless it taps into the majority of the playerbase.

If SW:TOR fails.....then I think the big publishers will go back to creating RPGs on the console, or look for the other "next big thing".  Companies still in the MMO space will figure out a way to lower the cost to produce a MMO and allow for more varied experiences for smaller niche groups.  Indie developers get more traction having not to battle half a billion dolar budgets.

I agree. But I think there is also a third alternative. SW:TOR will not fail but it will not be a amazing success long term.

Perhaps they will sell 2.5 million boxes. After 3 months there will be 1.5 million subscribers. After 12 months 500K subcribers.

EA would probably officially call that a sucess and appear to be very proud and satisfied.

But it would not be a amazing success. It would prove that the game cant grow after release.  A really fantastic success would be. 2.5 million sold at release. 3.5 million after 3 months. 5 million after 12 months....

So I believe that there is a big chance SW:TOR will do OK. Investors will think profits are OK. But long term if we compare release numbers and the situation after 12 months it will not really be a success.

With the marketing and hype big companies can afford. Release sales and subscriptions the first months is often enough to satisfie the investors. And to give reasonable return of investment. But the game can still be far from successful long term.

 I completely agree with you....it just determines how you define success.  Since neither of us are on their project team, we can't know. :)

BUT, it doesn't take a very smart business person to understand that considering the money spent and the audience it went after.......barely inking it by in the "black" won't cut it.  Barely turning a financial profit (largely due to promotion & Intellectual Property) after 12 months WITH a negative subscriber trend will, I think, spell failure for BioWare & Electronic Arts.

Look....going after a niche market and coming out with 300,000-500,000 subs is a success.  Going after the "Mass Audience", with a game that is designed to appeal to the largest number of MMORPG gamers, and coming out with 1,000,000-1,500,000 subs is NOT a success....even if the revenues barely cover cost.  You don't spend $400 million dollars to make $500,000.....there are a lot more places with a lot higher yield to spend that money.

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by Giblar

If a game tries to copy the success of WOW by making a similar game, then it's a WOW-clone.

 

It doesn't matter if wow cloned eq.

I think you just nailed right on the point.

Its only when the game succeeds in becoming a success like WOW that it can be called by any other name.

IF and only IF for example SWTOR holds a success after a year and surpasses the WOW subscribers, then  that  when all future games will be called SWTOR Clones. And thats what every MMO wants to become. The name that will be used before -clone

 I suspect TOR will share far more kinship with WOW (in terms of gameplay mechanics) than WOW did with EQ.

But there will be one huge difference, the story driven content, I can see future games copying it when TOR proves successful.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by Giblar

If a game tries to copy the success of WOW by making a similar game, then it's a WOW-clone.

 

It doesn't matter if wow cloned eq.

I think you just nailed right on the point.

Its only when the game succeeds in becoming a success like WOW that it can be called by any other name.

IF and only IF for example SWTOR holds a success after a year and surpasses the WOW subscribers, then  that  when all future games will be called SWTOR Clones. And thats what every MMO wants to become. The name that will be used before -clone

 I suspect TOR will share far more kinship with WOW (in terms of gameplay mechanics) than WOW did with EQ.

But there will be one huge difference, the story driven content, I can see future games copying it when TOR proves successful.

 1 big issue, what happens when the stories dry up?  not everyone want to alt.  And once you take the stories out you are really are left with wow in space (with several million ex wow players clamouring for end-game on board if the game is a success)  On top of this stories are very expensive to build and high risk - e.g if it wasnt Star Wars the stories would be far far less enticing and less of a safe bet.