Sorry but this is a competitive industry, not a thanksgiving dinner. You either give the customer what they want or they go elsewhere, its plain and simple.

We all expected much from FF14, they didn't deliver, they lost millions. APB failed to meet expectations, they also lost millions. Don't expect us gamers to lower our standards just so developers can have an easier time.

Originally posted by SBFord

In this week's Player Perspectives column, Isabelle Parsley compares developing MMOs to making Thanksgiving dinner: A lot of work; folks wolfing it down in five minutes flat; dozing in the living room; and poor Mom left to clean up alone. Find out why Isabelle makes that comparison and then lend us your thoughts when finished.

Developing and running an MMO is like making Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner: weeks of preparation and getting everything together, half a day of kitchen slavery, panic when things don’t look as though they’re going to be ready on time – and everything gets devoured in under an hour. If you’re lucky, nobody will complain about food poisoning and someone might even thank you, but forget about getting any help with the dishes: everyone’s too busy dozing in the living-room.

Read more Player Perspectives: Are We Asking Too Much of our MMOs?

 I felt that way but then I got into Dark Age of Camelot and went:

1.  Wow - you mean there are more than 2 factions??

2.  You mean, we don't have to do an instanced battleground and capture a flag or a tooth?

3.  Pvp affects an entire realm/faction?? Not just the person involved? wow!

4. You can actually have a game last over 10 years that has totally different races and classes across three different factions and people deal with it?  I mean they deal with it, really? 

5.  The developers actually created a 1-50 series of leveling maps PER faction??? I won't get to level 15 and see the other guys trying to kill 12 wolves?? wow so playing all three realms is almost like 3 different games!

6.  You mean instead of gear upgrades we actually become better fighters/mages/hearlears/rogues based on combat experience from fight other realms?  Like a sandbox title?? wow!

7.  You can capture castles and blow holes in a wall with siege equipment.  That's like Age of Conan and Shadowbane except we have like 27 races and totally unique factions! 

So yeah - while the market has been terrible for years, I do know that I am ALLOWED TO EXPECT MORE.  The problem is that the developers build on a WoW model (Rift pvp and raids), or they get so silly with a sandbox that you end up having to go to a trainer just to know how to /rest (Mortal Online) or "realistic" combat has turned into left mouse button spamming and every 12 year old arse-hat drooling as he spams you for your last 15 minutes of gear collecting (Dark Fall).

The genre is dead in my opinion in regards to creativity.  It is alive as an alternate to RPGs for people who want real player competition but it's just not a business I would get into.  Plenty of developers out there (you can google this on your own time) will tell the player base that the genre is just a mess due to corporate greed and a subsequent lack of creativity.

Originally posted by Thane

yea we are surely asking too much.

 

* asking for a newer engine (maybe one thats not as old as 6 years or even more)

* asking for balanced pvp

* asking for interesting pve

* and ffs get rid of that dumb "tab, cast, donce* system

 

or at least one of them. hell i dont play diablo 2 anymore for a reason, no matter how good the game was, game engines tend to be outdated at a certain point, same for mmos. 

it does not help if they produce a new eq/wow clone each year and just polish the gfx.

 

The biggest problem is that MMO players as a whole don't support this theory. "We ask too much" is not true. "We" just don't know what the hell we want.

Let's take the above 4 points. These were fulfilled by AOC at launch. The lead Dev dumbed down the whole system and f*cked it up based off of whining by the players and killed the game.

It had a new engine, interesting and balanced PvP, and interesting combat which used combos, etc. in order to drive it (not sure if they ever got spellcasting combos in, but those were promising in beta).

Also, when someone does come out with an interesting MMO, it's interesting to 30% of the people here, but the other 70% "don't like it" or "it's complicated". It all boils down to each person wanting their own way of doing an MMO which would be "rad"... but it's not what everyone thinks would be "rad", and so the game fails.

One thing WOW did well is cater to a large amount of people. With 11 million subscribers, no one can deny they did this. They standardized the genre by ripping things off from every MMO that was successful. While this made the play experience "generic", "ininspired" and "WOW clone" became a standard term... the buyers of said game became the engine which fueled this development model.

So far, while I see posts like the above, I don't see where someone ever explains how to accomplish these points. "Riveting gameplay" and "balanced PVP" are used by quite a few posters.

Having run a PW in NWN for several years, I can tell you this means very different things to different people, and is a marketing term, not an actual feature. As long as we specify this with marketing terms, we fail. There is nothing specific in marketing terms, by nature.

My immediate question is: "How do you want feature x implemented" and on the tail end of that "How many people would actually like that method?"

This is why we don't see innovation. We ourselves (and I am guilty of this - I'm not holding myself above all the marketing terms) don't make the next big thing, we don't really offer suggestions as to how to achieve it, and gamers, as a whole, want what they want, not what every one else wants.

In closing, an MMO is about what lots of people want - not just you. They can't sell an MMO to 5, 10, or 100 people who want it, and no one else. Hence, those modeled after WOW succeed, because it's familiar. Rift is an excellent example of this. TOR will be another. GW2 will be different to a point, but the combat will play the same. Because it works, it gets money in the door, and it's not wrong. It's just boring.

If you compile all of the player demands as a whole together it is easy to say that they are making impossibly high (and conflicting) demands, but the same can be said for just about anything that people have an opinion about.  Most of us have been there done that over and over again and so it becomes frustrating that time and time again the developers are reskinning the same incomplete game every single time a new MMO comes out. 

As the people who pay for these games I don't think it's too much to ask for a game that offers a complete PVE and PVP experience in one package and is takes our opinions into consideration.  Ten years ago DAoC created a compete package and since then developers have spent more and more money creating games that lack what was already there, instead of building upon it. 

Originally posted by shintenzu

Sorry but this is a competitive industry, not a thanksgiving dinner. You either give the customer what they want or they go elsewhere, its plain and simple.

We all expected much from FF14, they didn't deliver, they lost millions. APB failed to meet expectations, they also lost millions. Don't expect us gamers to lower our standards just so developers can have an easier time.

 /high five

You sir, win.

---

Originally posted by Lanessar
The biggest problem is that MMO players as a whole don't support this theory. "We ask too much" is not true. "We" just don't know what the hell we want.Let's take the above 4 points. These were fulfilled by AOC at launch. The lead Dev dumbed down the whole system and f*cked it up based off of whining by the players and killed the game.It had a new engine, interesting and balanced PvP, and interesting combat which used combos, etc. in order to drive it (not sure if they ever got spellcasting combos in, but those were promising in beta).Also, when someone does come out with an interesting MMO, it's interesting to 30% of the people here, but the other 70% "don't like it" or "it's complicated". It all boils down to each person wanting their own way of doing an MMO which would be "rad"... but it's not what everyone thinks would be "rad", and so the game fails.One thing WOW did well is cater to a large amount of people. With 11 million subscribers, no one can deny they did this. They standardized the genre by ripping things off from every MMO that was successful. While this made the play experience "generic", "ininspired" and "WOW clone" became a standard term... the buyers of said game became the engine which fueled this development model.So far, while I see posts like the above, I don't see where someone ever explains how to accomplish these points. "Riveting gameplay" and "balanced PVP" are used by quite a few posters.Having run a PW in NWN for several years, I can tell you this means very different things to different people, and is a marketing term, not an actual feature. As long as we specify this with marketing terms, we fail. There is nothing specific in marketing terms, by nature.My immediate question is: "How do you want feature x implemented" and on the tail end of that "How many people would actually like that method?"This is why we don't see innovation. We ourselves (and I am guilty of this - I'm not holding myself above all the marketing terms) don't make the next big thing, we don't really offer suggestions as to how to achieve it, and gamers, as a whole, want what they want, not what every one else wants.In closing, an MMO is about what lots of people want - not just you. They can't sell an MMO to 5, 10, or 100 people who want it, and no one else. Hence, those modeled after WOW succeed, because it's familiar. Rift is an excellent example of this. TOR will be another. GW2 will be different to a point, but the combat will play the same. Because it works, it gets money in the door, and it's not wrong. It's just boring.

---

AoC - The Combat system that was released was already a different system to what is seen in some announcements and videos and still it had many flaws as i.e. the difference in damage between male and female avatars of the same class.
Also, for my understanding, the system that was released was much to ressource demanding as it did many seperate calculations for the outcome of a single attack and had to made leaner to get some performance imnprovements and to have it in a state the team could start to fix its flaws.
Gaute Godager simply failed to deliver a well thought out and efficient system as well as an complete mmorpg and Morrison had to salvage what could be salvaged.
It was already in sharpest decline when Godager retired from it bcs of its failure.
The combo system itself...if it had flexibility...but it made you a clickmonky, push button x, wait, push button y, wait, push button z, wait, push button a, combo done, instead of binging an ability to one key it was now bound to 3, 4, or 5 keys that had to been pushed in the same manner every time you executed it.
The recent ranger revamp showed how it had been a good and new system having choices for on the fly decisions that imapct the outcome while executing a combo instead of beeing a bio-makro. Hard to explain, try it out if you dont understand it and get the difference.

Developers speak of the great tools they have to measure what players do, how much marketing research they do and how they know what players want.
We have not to know it if they really do it for us!
But to me it seems they dont know, they see a the wow ocean and forget that many rivers feed this ocean and these rivers be feed from hundreds and thousands of different srpings and of the rain that falls down from the sky.
Now, as the WoW oceans is already occupied one would think it would be a good idea to get the water at the spring and out of the rain and fill your own pool with it but every developer tries to cut a piece out of the WoW ocean.
Tell me when mankind was ever able to cut pieces out of water...

Not b4 the WoW ocean is a cold, dead, frozen iceblock!

A few people try to be different but well - when you see their work you immedietly associate they would also give pilots umbrellas instead or parachutes...

After reading this column, I actually decided to take a look at the comments, because I was sure many people would claim that not only are they not asking for too much from their game's developers, but that they would take personal offense to the columnist's viewpoint as well.

It only took a few comments to realize this was a hot button issue.

However, because I've been doing a little research of my own into the aspects of game development and the relationships between everyone involved in the production of a game and it's eventual consumption, I am starting to notice a trend.  Well, to be honest, I am also looking for the games I play to be a little more this and a little less that.  It's not that players are selfish, or that game developers aren't trying hard enough, it's that experienced mmo players all have their own idea of what would make a perfect game, and there is no way for them to make it, and no way for game developers to give everyone his or her idea of their perfect game.  I noticed this when people were saying "For me, I like..." or "Personally..." in a lot of the comments.  Well, I know what my perfect game is, but I have been searching for something like it for weeks, and it's not out there.  A game came close a while back, but then it got canned.  So now I just sit around, playing some boring stereotypical Fantasy Hack and Slash, hoping that one day...

I have also been reading a lot of reviews of games and comments about the ones currently out there for consumption.  Most comments pertain to personal preference and not the perceived poor quality of a game.  For example, I remember one person commenting on a game they played that primarily focused on dungeons that took too much time to complete.  It did not suit that player's busy lifestyle.  Of course, the first thing that popped in my head was "So, find a different game that isn't like that."  But then I remembered some of the things I didn't like about the games I've played for hours a day, months at a time.  I loved the games for what they were, but, while I might complain about x, y, and z being wrong with it, am I willing to give up what I've accomplished here to even begin sifting through the massive amount of games out there that I will try to like MORE?  No, I will just hope and pray that those things become more to my liking, so I can be more fully immersed in my alternate reality.

In order for players to be happy, I think developers should start finding niches rather than trying to cast a wide "tried and true" net.  THERE HAS TO BE A DEVELOPER OUT THERE WHO KNOWS THIS AND IS WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK.  I am certain the rewards will pay off.  Media in general these days is not about creativity, it's about a payday.  TV, movies, music, all of it.  It's about what MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE WANT.  But all that aside, the bottom line is the boring Fantasy genre just is not cutting it anymore, but we're gamers and we have to play something.  I'll give you an example.  It's a crude one, but it definitely fits the situation.  When you first discovered your Dad's collection of skin mags, it was new, exciting, fresh... and all the pictures did the trick!  But once you started figuring out what works for you and what doesn't, you could no longer be happy with your Dad's collection.  It sort of worked, but there's gotta be something out there that's much nicer, if you could just put your finger on it.  You're not going to stop partaking of that particular passtime, because, well, why would you?  But waiting for something better to come out just makes you feel like whining and complaining and yearning for that one... more... level cap achievement.

Well anyway, sorry about the wall of text post.  I thoroughly enjoyed this article and I am thankful for all it's comments.

//EDIT//  As for WoW: I think WoW introduced a lot of gamers to the world of mmos.  The early bird gets the worm, as they say.  It's not really that great of a game, nor is it that varied in its gaming experience, but because it was one of the first (if not the first) mainstream mmo, it gained immense popularity, and fast.  If some of those hardcore WoW addicts started branching off, something that might be hard to do because of a.) the time and emotional investment they have in WoW and b.) sifting through a lot of garbage mmos that really does drain the energy right out of you, then perhaps they might find themselves craving something more than the run-of-the mill fantasy genre.  Or perhaps they already do crave more, but are too afraid to step out of that life, even for just a transition period.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

After reading this column, I actually decided to take a look at the comments, because I was sure many people would claim that not only are they not asking for too much from their game's developers, but that they would take personal offense to the columnist's viewpoint as well.

It only took a few comments to realize this was a hot button issue.

I would like to say welcome to the forums and I enjoyed reading your response to this article.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

However, because I've been doing a little research of my own into the aspects of game development and the relationships between everyone involved in the production of a game and it's eventual consumption, I am starting to notice a trend.  Well, to be honest, I am also looking for the games I play to be a little more this and a little less that.  It's not that players are selfish, or that game developers aren't trying hard enough, it's that experienced mmo players all have their own idea of what would make a perfect game, and there is no way for them to make it, and no way for game developers to give everyone his or her idea of their perfect game.  I noticed this when people were saying "For me, I like..." or "Personally..." in a lot of the comments.  Well, I know what my perfect game is, but I have been searching for something like it for weeks, and it's not out there.  A game came close a while back, but then it got canned.  So now I just sit around, playing some boring stereotypical Fantasy Hack and Slash, hoping that one day...

I completely agree with this. The more experienced of a MMO player you are, the more niche your tastes are going to be. A lot of people are jaded with the lack of good AAA sandbox titles, unless they're playing EVE Online. But it's not just sandbox, there are plenty of theme park-lovers who are jaded because their favorite IP still hasn't been made into a MMORPG.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

I have also been reading a lot of reviews of games and comments about the ones currently out there for consumption.  Most comments pertain to personal preference and not the perceived poor quality of a game.  For example, I remember one person commenting on a game they played that primarily focused on dungeons that took too much time to complete.  It did not suit that player's busy lifestyle.  Of course, the first thing that popped in my head was "So, find a different game that isn't like that."  But then I remembered some of the things I didn't like about the games I've played for hours a day, months at a time.  I loved the games for what they were, but, while I might complain about x, y, and z being wrong with it, am I willing to give up what I've accomplished here to even begin sifting through the massive amount of games out there that I will try to like MORE?  No, I will just hope and pray that those things become more to my liking, so I can be more fully immersed in my alternate reality.

I'm not quite sure that is the appropriate tone to take with MMOs. A lot of people are asking developers to try and risk it all for what could be a niche audience, but at the same time you as a player will not take the risk the developers are making to try something more that you like. I understand you spent a lot of time and did a lot of 'hard work' making your character(s) the way they are, but if you aren't willing to take chances and spend your money on developers who are trying to make your dreams a reality, then you can't complain that there isn't a MMO out there for you. Simple as that.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

In order for players to be happy, I think developers should start finding niches rather than trying to cast a wide "tried and true" net.  THERE HAS TO BE A DEVELOPER OUT THERE WHO KNOWS THIS AND IS WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK.  I am certain the rewards will pay off.  Media in general these days is not about creativity, it's about a payday.  TV, movies, music, all of it.  It's about what MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE WANT.  But all that aside, the bottom line is the boring Fantasy genre just is not cutting it anymore, but we're gamers and we have to play something.  I'll give you an example.  It's a crude one, but it definitely fits the situation.  When you first discovered your Dad's collection of skin mags, it was new, exciting, fresh... and all the pictures did the trick!  But once you started figuring out what works for you and what doesn't, you could no longer be happy with your Dad's collection.  It sort of worked, but there's gotta be something out there that's much nicer, if you could just put your finger on it.  You're not going to stop partaking of that particular passtime, because, well, why would you?  But waiting for something better to come out just makes you feel like whining and complaining and yearning for that one... more... level cap achievement.

I'm not quite sure I'm entirely on agreement with you there. I think there are both in the arena, the problem is, there are many niches and not one will have large funding because that's what it is, a niche, whereas the tried-and-true formula has companies willing to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to copy the success of its competitors. In reality, everybody says that everything is a World of Warcraft clone, but in reality there are probably more niche games than tried-and-true, you just don't hear about the niche games because they don't have the funding to advertise. In a way theme park games are niche games because the only people who are really going to actually care about the game are going to be people who have played the previous games in the series.

As for other media, television is a good example of this. You have your standard free channels everybody gets, who tries to get as many people as possible, and you have for-pay cable and satellite channels, which finds its way to niche markets. I mean there is a channel called Logo that is specifically for LGBT issues, and how more niche can you than that? I mean you also have your general-programming cable channels such as G4, that used to be more niche - but nobody watches that channel anymore after they changed its line-up and removed most of its original programming. And I think that's what people want - "original programming", rather than the same rehashing of the same shows (for G4 its Cops, Cheaters and Ninja Warrior). Original programming - something new - even in an old show can get higher ratings in a cable network than a repeat on free TV. Original programming could be translated to original content (which ironically has to be programmed) - and just like TV the tried-and-true MMOs get a spike in viewership during new expansions (seasons), or big patches.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

Well anyway, sorry about the wall of text post.  I thoroughly enjoyed this article and I am thankful for all it's comments.

It's alright.

Originally posted by thefuturist1

//EDIT//  As for WoW: I think WoW introduced a lot of gamers to the world of mmos.  The early bird gets the worm, as they say.  It's not really that great of a game, nor is it that varied in its gaming experience, but because it was one of the first (if not the first) mainstream mmo, it gained immense popularity, and fast.  If some of those hardcore WoW addicts started branching off, something that might be hard to do because of a.) the time and emotional investment they have in WoW and b.) sifting through a lot of garbage mmos that really does drain the energy right out of you, then perhaps they might find themselves craving something more than the run-of-the mill fantasy genre.  Or perhaps they already do crave more, but are too afraid to step out of that life, even for just a transition period.

The early bird of MMOs was EverQuest (and that also had success, just not nearly the bait that WoW got).

And the game can be very varied in its gaming experience. You got questing - phasing and open-world, 4 secondary professions to grind, 2 primary professions to grind, exploration, PvE and PvP arenas, conquest areas, auction house selling and buying, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, and other achievements.

As for your last point, I redirect you to your fourth paragraph as to why they will not even accept that transition period. You nailed it right on the head there.

The bottom line is simple and it is this: If anything, the developers and publishers are "asking too much of us" by putting out half finished garbage and expecting us to pay for it, and thank them.

And nothing less....

MMORPG's = large, expensive, ambitious technological beasts, risky, demanding playerbase, more of a service than a product... and riches to the ones that grab the most a/c's and heavy losses to those that get it wrong.

I think if mmos can be made at a lower cost and the saturated market leads to different approaches eg producing mmos that have a core experience and attract a small following which leads to growth based off that... things will start to improve a lot.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

MMORPG's = large, expensive, ambitious technological beasts, risky, demanding playerbase, more of a service than a product... and riches to the ones that grab the most a/c's and heavy losses to those that get it wrong.

I think if mmos can be made at a lower cost and the saturated market leads to different approaches eg producing mmos that have a core experience and attract a small following which leads to growth based off that... things will start to improve a lot.

Problem is, MMO studios are now part of large entertainment companies and the corporate mentality is totally different.

When MMO studios were smaller and did their own thing, that is where the old time greats like UO, DAOC, SWG and the others came from.

Now that they are all part of big companies, there is no incentive or desire to "take risks" developing a product... they follow "the formula" as defined by WoW, and launch at date X when the development budget is used up, whether the game is ready or not. Resulting in: games that are both largely unoriginal and poorly polished, which is what we've had these last few years.

Thank you, Sanity888, for the welcome.

Er, I wish I knew how to quote things.  I am only a casual forum user and really only post when something piques my interest, so I never mastered that skill.

But I want to reply to your comment about players not willing to take the risk to play new niche games.  I can't speak for everyone, but I am totally willing.  I have gone through the list of mmos on this site a million times over, and have tried several that have seemed even remotely appealing to me, but some of them just don't compare to this one game I played that I absolutely loved.  I guess, in a way, I'm looking for a replacement game.  At least a game with a similar theme, even if gameplay is different.

If anyone can say this topic is easily understood, they may be mistaken.  There's more going on here than the simple manufacturing process of supply and demand.  I cannot for certain say what these underlying elements are, but I think they may be psychological in nature.  I want to say so much more on this topic, but it is probably out of the realm of what the original article was about, so for now, I'll just stick with this.

Thanks again for reading.

Sincerely,

TheFuturist

Didnt read most of the comments, more of the same old. But the original article is right on the point. Its not just mmorpg's however, single player console games suffer the same fate as well (unless you make Call of Duty and can do no wrong). Ill never quite understand why a seemingly large (or at least loud) segment of the gaming community continues to loiter around and make a nuisance of themselves on the internet by voicing their pretty much worthless opinions and barking demands. Some people just aint never gonna be pleased nor happy. Im sorry but in a world where 99% of the wealth is owned and hoarded by less than 1% of the population, you're all just going to have to get used to making due with scraps, when it comes to video games or anything else in life. Were all peons, were all meant to be good little consumers and spend our money on whatever, get old and useless then die, and thats about it. Nobody really gives a damn if you are not happy with your isignifianct purchase that was meant to bring joy and shed a little light into your mundane inconsequential life. Please do stfu.

Im happy with my 30 dollar an hour 9 to 5, my steak dinner 2 to 3 times a week, and if Im lucky the occasional BJ. Anything outside of that Im really not concerned about. Such is life.

Originally posted by Inshalla

Didnt read most of the comments, more of the same old. But the original article is right on the point. Its not just mmorpg's however, single player console games suffer the same fate as well (unless you make Call of Duty and can do no wrong). Ill never quite understand why a seemingly large (or at least loud) segment of the gaming community continues to loiter around and make a nuisance of themselves on the internet by voicing their pretty much worthless opinions and barking demands. Some people just aint never gonna be pleased nor happy. Im sorry but in a world where 99% of the wealth is owned and hoarded by less than 1% of the population, you're all just going to have to get used to making due with scraps, when it comes to video games or anything else in life. Were all peons, were all meant to be good little consumers and spend our money on whatever, get old and useless then die, and thats about it. Nobody really gives a damn if you are not happy with your isignifianct purchase that was meant to bring joy and shed a little light into your mundane inconsequential life. Please do stfu.

Im happy with my 30 dollar an hour 9 to 5, my steak dinner 2 to 3 times a week, and if Im lucky the occasional BJ. Anything outside of that Im really not concerned about. Such is life.

 

Honestly, I think your post is a very nice example of exactly what you were trying to point out.  People who think their opinion matters more than everyone else's. 

What works for you does not always work for everyone else.  Everyone has their own opinion.  Just because it does not match yours 100% does not make it any less valid. 

Originally posted by Vyeth

I have this strange feeling that, had WoW not attracted so many new players that were already used to console gaming that we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now..

I think the supposed "niche" crew that enjoyed MMO's in the past, enjoyed them for what they were and didn't hate them for what they weren't..

We didn't demand that they play like Mortal Kombat.. We didn't expect them to make us dodge stuff like Contra.. We played as part of a world shared with other people with whatever mechanics were offered. The Call of Duty series are STILL FPS games, moderate variations but in the end you are still pointing your weapon at things and shooting them in the face till they die..

Tekken? Marvel vs Capcom? Street Fighter? You are still pressing button combinations and using specific timing to pull off combination moves, every since the beginning.

I don't think changing the genre completely to blend in with other genre's is the answer.. Point and click is not even the problem. It's the simplicity of todays games that shuns even the most dedicated of MMO fans..

After all these years chess is still played on a board.. Same amount of peices, same rules.. However depending on who is sitting on the other side of that board, you will have to use some wit and intellect to win the game..

MMO's need to follow this setup with the usage of skills, and without the need for twiching on your gamepad, players can start to feel like they are actually playing something..

... . Best mmo i have played still have more twitch than most and that was daoc, no dodge, no higher level action based systems, just rewards for placing yourself in the right spot and attacking, moving when needed, using quickcast abilitys when somethign gets ona  caster, etc. highly possitional based combat ; and its and oldie.

Acctually chest is a very different game (or how it is played) , with criticisim by many of the top players that most people with little to no understanding can do quite well in the early to mid game with predefined openings... Odd tidbit there. Lets also be honest how many play chest ona  weekly basis... not many. So for mass apeal and entertainment this agruement is lacking.

Id agrue there is room for both twitch and tactics. Moderation being the key.

Originally posted by Comaf

The genre is dead in my opinion in regards to creativity.  It is alive as an alternate to RPGs for people who want real player competition but it's just not a business I would get into.  Plenty of developers out there (you can google this on your own time) will tell the player base that the genre is just a mess due to corporate greed and a subsequent lack of creativity.

Corporate greed has nothing to do it, only the lack of the customer's greed or self-interest. How many bought FF14? I said on these forums it would be bad (which we get flamed for) but it was obvious that it would be. Same with a few others, but people ... many of you people, still buy it. You tell those companies please make shit because we will buy it. Someone in this thread has an approprate quote by dick cavught , something like people will continue to sell crap as long as there are people willign to buy it. Bingo.
Honestly i hate to say it but don't buy the new mmos comign out unless they offer clear examples pre-release of good MMORPG systems. saying that i do not think atm WAR 40k looks good (wow style baby, no real mmo, to be seen atm), TOR ... same thing effort is the single player experience... in an mmo. PASS (it might be a fun game for a bit , but doesn't seem to care about massive player interaction, which it should as an mmorpg), there are others, gw2 might kinda be lacking on the character development (rpg wise not story wise).

Look hard at these games before buything them (even just to try them) stop rewarding bad behavior. Or don't, in a way you are rewarding them developing a game that appears good, and this maybe fine, if they later lose their playerbase they might have been rewarded a small amount but not as much as a game that delivers desired content.

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by Inshalla

Didnt read most of the comments, more of the same old. But the original article is right on the point. Its not just mmorpg's however, single player console games suffer the same fate as well (unless you make Call of Duty and can do no wrong). Ill never quite understand why a seemingly large (or at least loud) segment of the gaming community continues to loiter around and make a nuisance of themselves on the internet by voicing their pretty much worthless opinions and barking demands. Some people just aint never gonna be pleased nor happy. Im sorry but in a world where 99% of the wealth is owned and hoarded by less than 1% of the population, you're all just going to have to get used to making due with scraps, when it comes to video games or anything else in life. Were all peons, were all meant to be good little consumers and spend our money on whatever, get old and useless then die, and thats about it. Nobody really gives a damn if you are not happy with your isignifianct purchase that was meant to bring joy and shed a little light into your mundane inconsequential life. Please do stfu.

Im happy with my 30 dollar an hour 9 to 5, my steak dinner 2 to 3 times a week, and if Im lucky the occasional BJ. Anything outside of that Im really not concerned about. Such is life.

 

Honestly, I think your post is a very nice example of exactly what you were trying to point out.  People who think their opinion matters more than everyone else's. 

 

What works for you does not always work for everyone else.  Everyone has their own opinion.  Just because it does not match yours 100% does not make it any less valid. 

 

 Actually, thats not what I was pointing out at all. I couldnt care less if someone think their opinion is more valid for whatever reason. A lot of people do that and its really not my problem.

Some opinions are more valid than others however. It all depends on wether you formed said opinion through rational thought and objective thinking rather than "some other" thought process. I never really touched on the main topic at hand about the games themselves. That would be a complete waste of time because regardless of what reasoning you present to a whiner they're just going to blurt out something else or slightly modify their whinge, or come up with some excuse, as evident by a lot of replies to the original artical. Not interested in all that. I was pointing how generally whining is a pointless excersize, so debating the reasons a whiner presents would be equally pointless. Sure, there are situations where you do have the right to complain, however complaining that a video game does not meet your specific needs does not even approach being a valid reason for complaint. Just dont play the game nor buy it, its that simple. If you find yourself ritually disapointed by mmorpg's, you should probably only play those that offera  free trial at some point, otherwise YOU are responsible for your own decision. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity, and insanity does not quantify as a valid opinion. Its the exception to the rule, if you will.

So yes, a lot of mmorpg players could reasonably be catagorized as insane (not exactly a newsflash) so the rest of humanity arent really at all obligated to take their insane rantings seriously.

And just to elaborate on that point a little further, not only should we not feel compelled to take those types of opinions seriously, we have a social responsbility to make an example out of it so further displays of this behaviour arent encouraged. Like it or not, society has a certain ruleset that you must abide by for the "everyone is equal" rule to come in to play. $15 a month doesnt really offer you the right to complain a whole hell of a lot, but apparently it does offer you the right to make an ass of yourself in spades. And if you wish to act like a douchebag, fully expect to be treated like one.

Ive never once in my life had any sort of issue or walked away from a customer service experience feeling unsatisfied. Not with any company (at least not in America). More often than not, not only is my issue addressed and amended after the first point of contact, but I generally recieve something else free just to say "thanks and sorry". I really have to crack up at people who routinely find themselves dissatisfied with the way companies handle them (mmorpg players and video game players in general are perhaps the worst niche market I have observed in this respect.) I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, there is something YOU are doing wrong, not them. That is a fact.

If you're going to approach customer service or a company in general with a complaint, you should make sure of a few things first:

1. Do I have the required people skills to converse with this person as another human being?

People in general are just doing their jobs, and could just as easily be your friend (if you're cappable of making them) as they would be providing you a service for their respective company. If contact with other human beings is an issue for you, you probably arent getting what you want. (this a big issue for mmorpg players, hence it goes number 1!).

2. Is your complaint valid?

If you feel that the person your speaking to will probably gossip and have a laugh at you for your idiotic request after the fact with a coworker, then you probably arent getting what you want.

3. Are your expectations realistic?

In terms of mmorpg's, no they're probably not in 95% of cases, so if the first 2 dont get you, this one probably will.

I hope this clears up any confussion that people may be having. If everyone just followed these simple rules in terms of contacting customer service and other channels with issues, we could increase efficiency by over 9,000. And one more important thing, if you dont like the games, STOP FUCKING BUYING THEM. Thank you.

Originally posted by Inshalla

Originally posted by paroxysm

Originally posted by Inshalla

Didnt read most of the comments, more of the same old. But the original article is right on the point. Its not just mmorpg's however, single player console games suffer the same fate as well (unless you make Call of Duty and can do no wrong). Ill never quite understand why a seemingly large (or at least loud) segment of the gaming community continues to loiter around and make a nuisance of themselves on the internet by voicing their pretty much worthless opinions and barking demands. Some people just aint never gonna be pleased nor happy. Im sorry but in a world where 99% of the wealth is owned and hoarded by less than 1% of the population, you're all just going to have to get used to making due with scraps, when it comes to video games or anything else in life. Were all peons, were all meant to be good little consumers and spend our money on whatever, get old and useless then die, and thats about it. Nobody really gives a damn if you are not happy with your isignifianct purchase that was meant to bring joy and shed a little light into your mundane inconsequential life. Please do stfu.

Im happy with my 30 dollar an hour 9 to 5, my steak dinner 2 to 3 times a week, and if Im lucky the occasional BJ. Anything outside of that Im really not concerned about. Such is life.

 

Honestly, I think your post is a very nice example of exactly what you were trying to point out.  People who think their opinion matters more than everyone else's. 

 

What works for you does not always work for everyone else.  Everyone has their own opinion.  Just because it does not match yours 100% does not make it any less valid. 

 

 Actually, thats not what I was pointing out at all. I couldnt care less if someone think their opinion is more valid for whatever reason. A lot of people do that and its really not my problem.

Some opinions are more valid than others however. It all depends on wether you formed said opinion through rational thought and objective thinking rather than "some other" thought process. I never really touched on the main topic at hand about the games themselves. That would be a complete waste of time because regardless of what reasoning you present to a whiner they're just going to blurt out something else or slightly modify their whinge, or come up with some excuse, as evident by a lot of replies to the original artical. Not interested in all that. I was pointing how generally whining is a pointless excersize, so debating the reasons a whiner presents would be equally pointless. Sure, there are situations where you do have the right to complain, however complaining that a video game does not meet your specific needs does not even approach being a valid reason for complaint. Just dont play the game nor buy it, its that simple. If you find yourself ritually disapointed by mmorpg's, you should probably only play those that offera  free trial at some point, otherwise YOU are responsible for your own decision. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is insanity, and insanity does not quantify as a valid opinion. Its the exception to the rule, if you will.

So yes, a lot of mmorpg players could reasonably be catagorized as insane (not exactly a newsflash) so the rest of humanity arent really at all obligated to take their insane rantings seriously.

 

Maybe you shoult reread your first post.  Let's recap.

Only YOUR opinion matters and everyone else who has any problem with a product is a whiner.

We should just let people, with power and money, walk all over us and resign ourselves to the inferior people and position that we fill.

We should all feel envious of your $30 an hour job and occasional BG.  It clearly makes you better than all the rest of us.

If you don't care, we shouldn't either.

All complaints, reports of issues, and criticism is just whining.

Please do everyone a favor and stop telling us how to live our lives.  You are exactly the type of person that is not posting anything but a complaint about how everyone but you is a whiner.  I guess all problems in life are apparent to everyone and are resolved by that elite 1%.  Constructive discussions that start with the listing of a problem never happen according to you.  You are apparently a very vain and egocentric person who expects everyone else to be a smiling lemming.  To quote you "Please do stfu.".

Originally posted by SBFord

In this week's Player Perspectives column, Isabelle Parsley compares developing MMOs to making Thanksgiving dinner: A lot of work; folks wolfing it down in five minutes flat; dozing in the living room; and poor Mom left to clean up alone. Find out why Isabelle makes that comparison and then lend us your thoughts when finished.

Developing and running an MMO is like making Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner: weeks of preparation and getting everything together, half a day of kitchen slavery, panic when things don’t look as though they’re going to be ready on time – and everything gets devoured in under an hour. If you’re lucky, nobody will complain about food poisoning and someone might even thank you, but forget about getting any help with the dishes: everyone’s too busy dozing in the living-room.

Read more Player Perspectives: Are We Asking Too Much of our MMOs?

No, in fact, imo, most players don't ask enough.

Yet we are quite happy, actually ecstatic, with games from all other genres(RPG, RTS, etc.). Make a half decent MMORPG kthxbai.