Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by Creslin321

But if YOU are right, you blow their argument.  It's not a deterrent at all.  It's just an offroad to your overall enjoyment of the game, much like crafting or exploring or minigames might be to someone else.

Very nice and logical argument :)!

I think what UOLover meant though was that no one actually looks forward to experiencing the death penalty, but sometimes the adventures you have recovering from it can be (but are not always) interesting...usually only in retrospect :).

I can remember in UO being TERRIFIED after I died that some opportunistic player would drop by and take all my stuff.  It was definitely a rush while I was running as fast as I could back to my corpse, and it was an awesome feeling if I got my stuff back.  But I would definitely NEVER die on purpose...the rush is in the fear of loss.

 

Well, if that's what UOL means, then the argument that corpse running is a tedious and annoying form of gameplay still stands undisputed.  Like you said, good/funny/amusing things CAN happen in the process, but you can also meet the love of your life in a 10 car pile up.  That doesn't make 10 car pile ups a positive thing in the game of life.  ;) 

Maybe it's one of the reasons(other than the massive inconvenience) that DP's in the flavor of corpse running(largely a legacy holdover from most MUD's) to indisputably negative, but much less time consuming options like Rez sickness and item repair.

Well, I don't think that one all-ecompassing view really works here.  Some corpse runs ARE tedious.  Others; a fun challenge.  Just like some quests are great and others suck.  It's all about situations.  There is no defining it one way or the other IMO.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? WoW is an anomaly and we should all know that by now. But, how come none of the light DP mmos haven't overtaken a game with a heavy DP that doesn't even have avatars you can really use yet?

I don't think people are as allergic to a heavier DP as you would like to believe. We just don't have enough examples out there for gamers to experience because the current crop of game developers seem to have an incredible lack of creativity and a big desire to coast all the way down easy street.

Once we get devs that start making games they want to play again, we will finally be able to get out this horrible period of stagnation.

I think a death penalty can add to the game experience, but it can also detract from it. The game definitely has to be designed in a certain way depending on the death penalty and can't just be thrown in as an after thought.

In a game like UO there was the risk of losing your equipment if you got in too deep and or couldn't get back quickly enough. But if you did lose your gear it wasn't the end of the world as UO was more character skill driven than equipment driven. If the game had been more about the various items you accumulated then losing all your equipment would be too harsh and frustrating to risk ever diving into a dangerous situation. At that point it becomes a deterrent to gameplay rather than enhancing the gameplay with the element of risk. The risk vs reward just wouldn't balance out.

Everquest also had a harsh death penalty. While you didn't really have the loss of equipment (unless things went horribly wrong and you couldn't find a necromancer) hanging over your head it was entirely possible early on in the game to end up in a death loop where you would lose massive amounts of experience and maybe even lose your level. It definitely added to the level of concentration people put forth in the encounters, because they really REALLY didn't want to die.

Then at the other end of the spectrum you have WoW and Rift, where the only setback really is time. And you will likely end up dying many, many more times than you ever would in UO or Everquest. I don't think the anyone could make a legitimate argument that those 2 games are more challenging. So why the difference ? People will approach the game and situations much differently when there is an element of risk involved other than just the time lost running back. And the games themselved are designed and filled with crappy/cheap ways to kill people repeatedly.

Really I wish a game would release with a happy medium between punishing people for stupid mistakes (Yes, punish. If there is one thing I am truly tired of in recent MMOs is that you end up with max level players that are horrible because they can level while dying repeatedly and never learn how to play and just mooch off the rest of the group. And then you end up with them recruiting with your guild, thrown into groups or PvP with them etc... You shouldn't have to learn to play the game when you've reached the "end". The process of getting there should be enough.) while not being overly harsh if you simply get stuck in a bad situation. Such as a decaying death penalty instead of a increased time between rezzing. First time you die is the worst, then it halves every time after that up to like 5 deaths and have it reset after 4 hours or so. This would give you the incentive to avoid doing something stupid/foolhardy yet not be totally discouraging for trying something risky.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? WoW is an anomaly and we should all know that by now. But, how come none of the light DP mmos haven't overtaken a game with a heavy DP that doesn't even have avatars you can really use yet?

I don't think people are as allergic to a heavier DP as you would like to believe. We just don't have enough examples out there for gamers to experience because the current crop of game developers seem to have an incredible lack of creativity and a big desire to coast all the way down easy street.

Once we get devs that start making games they want to play again, we will finally be able to get out this horrible period of stagnation.

You can't compare Eve to other true MMO's...  Eve is a glorified spreadsheet with an avatar.  Sure, the game may be fun for some people, but it is simply not in the same realm as WoW, Rift, AoC, etc.  They are completely different types of games.

>>lets take a look at WoW for example.
>>Blizzard made "forming groups" less frustrating, but somehow that translate to people, that Blizzard is dumbing down the gameplay >>and making it easier.
>>Blizzard lowers the raid format from 40 man, down to 25 and 10 man groups, in order to make group formations less frustrating, >>but again, players some how translate that to Blizzard dumbing down the game and making it easier.

  Uhm you seemed to have missed the big part where made the bosses, elite creatures etc easier to take on. Some how you have mistaken the looking for groups tool as dumbing down. When most of us don't mind that tool and actually think the tool is a good thing. It was the lowering of difficulty of the foes you faced that reduced the sense of reward one got when one beat the boss or creatures etc. MMOEXPOSED I've read a few posts by you and you often use faulty logic for your debate stances, or twisted logic.

Originally posted by madeux

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? WoW is an anomaly and we should all know that by now. But, how come none of the light DP mmos haven't overtaken a game with a heavy DP that doesn't even have avatars you can really use yet?

I don't think people are as allergic to a heavier DP as you would like to believe. We just don't have enough examples out there for gamers to experience because the current crop of game developers seem to have an incredible lack of creativity and a big desire to coast all the way down easy street.

Once we get devs that start making games they want to play again, we will finally be able to get out this horrible period of stagnation.

You can't compare Eve to other true MMO's...Sure I can. Even though it's unique, it's still an mmorpg. Eve is a glorified spreadsheet with an avatar. This was anything but unique ;) Sure, the game may be fun for some people, but it is simply not in the same realm as WoW, Rift, AoC, etc. The realm of "ancient and done to death"? Right, Rift is newly released, but newness and polish do not change the fact that it falls into the same category of "ancient and done to death".  They are completely different types of games. That was sort of the point :) Games that don't follow through with the light DP that is so common, and instead go with something harsher, can indeed be successful.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? 

That's great for you, but:

• Add all Harsh DP games together.  (EVE, Darkfall, Demon's Souls, Russian Roulette, etc.)
• Compare with all of gaming (all videogames, sports, card/board games, etc)
• Realize that harsh DP games account for an amazingly tiny portion of overall gaming.

---

Originally posted by Axehilt

---

Originally posted by Cecropia

---

Originally posted by Axehilt
Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.
"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

---

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? 

---

That's great for you, but:

• Add all Harsh DP games together.  (EVE, Darkfall, Demon's Souls, Russian Roulette, etc.)
• Compare with all of gaming (all videogames, sports, card/board games, etc) Realize that harsh DP games account for an amazingly tiny portion of overall gaming.

Players play games for entertainment, and we find games entertaining because they offer us interesting decisions, interesting patterns to unravel.

 

Excessive pain just isn't a core part of entertainment.  For most people it's the opposite of entertainment.

 

And regarding your "once devs get back to making games they want to play" comment, that's exactly what devs are already doing.  A particularly well-known, polished, well-designed MMORPG just happens to be the game most devs have wanted to play.  They've clearly failed to recreate the same level of polish and design in their own games, but they're still striving towards that goal (it's neither a cheap nor easy thing to accomplish.)

---

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? 

That's great for you, but:

• Add all Harsh DP games together.  (EVE, Darkfall, Demon's Souls, Russian Roulette, etc.)
• Compare with all of gaming (all videogames, sports, card/board games, etc)
• Realize that harsh DP games account for an amazingly tiny portion of overall gaming.

Players play games for entertainment, and we find games entertaining because they offer us interesting decisions, interesting patterns to unravel.

 

Excessive pain just isn't a core part of entertainment.  For most people it's the opposite of entertainment.

 

And regarding your "once devs get back to making games they want to play" comment, that's exactly what devs are already doing.  A particularly well-known, polished, well-designed MMORPG just happens to be the game most devs have wanted to play.  They've clearly failed to recreate the same level of polish and design in their own games, but they're still striving towards that goal (it's neither a cheap nor easy thing to accomplish.)

Axe did you really just compare harsh DP MMORPGs with card and board games?  Those games don't even have any concepts that could be remotely related to a death penalty.  Besides, showing that the majority of games don't have harsh DP's doesn't prove anything.  There are still games out there that do have harsh DP's and some of them have sold fairly well, and really, that's all that matters.  There is a market for people that enjoy harsh DP's.

We all realize that you are diametrically opposed to harsh DP's and that is perfectly fine.  However, there are some people that enjoy harsher DPs, this is also perfectly fine.  Different strokes for different folks.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Meaningless trolling from someone who's clearly not read any of my posts in this thread.  (And for what it's worth I'm a C64/NES-generation gamer, which is why I prefer logical death penalties and not excessively punishing ones.  It's only the kids who started on UO/EQ who seem to lack comprehension of what a good death penalty is.)

riiiiight...   lets go back to the old ad hominem discussion when you cant really defend your position:D  i just cant believe someone trying to use an agism angle for an ad hominem attack on a game that is almost 12 years old in a genre that is, well..... about 12 years old:D  yah you can bring meridian59 into this if you want, but lets face it, the distinction between graphical MUD's and modern day MMORPG really started with EQ....   I suppose you can call the Wright brothers young noobz in the aircraft industry by your standards:D

when was the last time you hacked a computer with a audio cassette tape and a soldering iron?:D   just because i tried to stay in context which is the realm of MMORPG and use EQ as example doesnt mean my days of gaming didnt pre date C64:D  as for your "logical death penalties"....   did you READ the TITLE of this thread to begin with before you posted all those comments that you accuse me of not reading?:D

Originally posted by Robsolf

If, say, corpse runs are not a punishment to you, then it is not a penalty; and for you it doesn't fit into any of the rationale regarding harsh death penalties.  They are meant to deter people from experiencing them.  The argument from most folks on your side of the argument, is that this "deterrence" is necessary to keep people playing to the best of their ability.

But if YOU are right, you blow their argument.  It's not a deterrent at all.  It's just an offroad to your overall enjoyment of the game, much like crafting or exploring or minigames might be to someone else.

corpse run's was only a problem in EQ1 at lower lvls.  once you are max lvl, most raiders have at least 2 sets of backup gear in the bank specifically for corpse recovery (especially tanks, i had 2 full sets of almost raid quality gear in the bank for corpse runs:D)  it's a "problem" you can prepare for and fairly easy to overcome.  the only REAL problem we had in corpse runs was back in PoFear days:D   i donno how many sets of gears i lost in that zone:D   you want to talk about HARD corpse runs, PoFear pwns ALL:D   I remember once we wiped in fear, after 6 hrs of trying to get our corpses back, we broke down and asked another raid guild for help...   THEY ended up wiping and lost THEIR gear too:D   wasnt very funny at the time, but i cant stop laughing thinking about it now:D  needless to say, they werent very happy with our guild after that:D

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Axehilt

Not "universal hatred", but let's face it: games like EVE, Darkfall, and Demon's Souls are a tiny drop in the sea of the game industry.

"Overwhelming majority" is almost an insufficient term for describing how many players prefer sane death penalty.

EVE has been the number two P2P in the west for how long now? 

That's great for you, but:

• Add all Harsh DP games together.  (EVE, Darkfall, Demon's Souls, Russian Roulette, etc.)
• Compare with all of gaming (all videogames, sports, card/board games, etc)
• Realize that harsh DP games account for an amazingly tiny portion of overall gaming.

Players play games for entertainment, and we find games entertaining because they offer us interesting decisions, interesting patterns to unravel.

 

Excessive pain just isn't a core part of entertainment.  For most people it's the opposite of entertainment.

 

And regarding your "once devs get back to making games they want to play" comment, that's exactly what devs are already doing.  A particularly well-known, polished, well-designed MMORPG just happens to be the game most devs have wanted to play.  They've clearly failed to recreate the same level of polish and design in their own games, but they're still striving towards that goal (it's neither a cheap nor easy thing to accomplish.)

 I gamed on PLATO back in the 70s and I appreciate a good old permadeath game.  Harsh penalties may not be tennable from a business model point of  view.  Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean others will agree. 

Originally posted by waynejr2

 I gamed on PLATO back in the 70s and I appreciate a good old permadeath game.  Harsh penalties may not be tennable from a business model point of  view.  Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean others will agree. 

Sure, and I'm not here to change individual opinions; merely to point out the fact that they're ultra-niche opinions and games are unlikely to be made to support them.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Axe did you really just compare harsh DP MMORPGs with card and board games?  Those games don't even have any concepts that could be remotely related to a death penalty.  Besides, showing that the majority of games don't have harsh DP's doesn't prove anything.  There are still games out there that do have harsh DP's and some of them have sold fairly well, and really, that's all that matters.  There is a market for people that enjoy harsh DP's.

We all realize that you are diametrically opposed to harsh DP's and that is perfectly fine.  However, there are some people that enjoy harsher DPs, this is also perfectly fine.  Different strokes for different folks.

It's a counterpoint to any idea that EVE somehow represents a significant number of players, when it doesn't.  As originally stated: games with harsh DP are the tiniest drop in the ocean of gaming.

Personally I'd dispute the idea that there's something fundamentally different from MMORPGs than any other game.  They're all games.  Their purpose is entertainment.  No trait of MMORPGs fundamentally necessitates harsh DP.  Punishment simply isn't a core part of how people are entertained, and that's reflected throughout all entertainment products; games with harsh failure conditions are an ultra-niche.

Axehilt talking about number of players and entertainment value is progress at least :)

Oddly worded question.  The death penatly doesn't make the game challenging.  It is the encounters that are challenging.  However, a death penalty does present a risk/reward factor. 

A harsh death penalty is there to keep you from bum rushing into an encounter.  If you take a decent hit to your xp or items possibly lost then you start to think before jumping into a group of large mobs.  Instead of going solo you are more apt to bring a friend.  You are less likely to take risks in gameplay.  You may try something once for the fun of it, but that is it.  (I can normally  handle two mobs, but this pull is going to be 3.  Do I risk it?  10% exp loss for this first death, sure why not.  If I die then I'll have to either level up more or bring a friend to do this part., or maybe I just need to get better with my skills.)

If the only penalty is respawning two feet away in steatlh-mode, then what incentive do you have to change tactics?  Just keep rushing and maybe eventually you will beat the encounter.  Attack first, think later. 

Death penalty or harder gameplay makes the challenge? Lets see...

I ll give a simple example,,

When im playing evolution 11 me  vs cpu i always win,make nice moves,playing good football. Its easy even on hard ai difficulty lvl.

When im playing 1v1 with another person on the internet there is a chance i win,but netherthanless i play the way i can play.

When im playing 1v1 in rated matches or tournaments you can see people are getting nervous.They are doing miistakes that nomrally vs computer they wouldnt have done..or either against me in a non rated match.

Thats the adrenaline rish,each player strong mentality matters where rating points are on stake.

Same goes with a death penalty in an mmorpg. Each person's individual mentallity will play its role in battles. If the gameplay is harder it is harder. Its just that DP further increases the difficulty of a game and it WILL infulence player reactions if they have a chance to perma die inside a dungeon.

So my opinion is both factors play a role ona mmorpg 's challenge ,each in its own unique way

I guess we ll have to wait for wizardry online to check how DP can work  really,

P.S. And btw , i know lots of rl ppl that would like to play an mmorpg with a dp or perma death .Its just that there n such games with high lvl of quality like lets say wow or other succesgull mmorpgs that support  dp ier perma death. That doesnt mean ofc lots of ppl wouldnt play a high quality mmorpg with dp or perma death system implemented.

For me, harsh death penalties makes me timid. It has nothing to do with the game difficulty. I don't mind corpse runs, yet I DO mind losing levels or precious currency.

When I played EQ, I actually got my bard up to 39th level, with the help of a guild. I recall when I just made 39th level, I ran through the Eastern Commons and aggroed and then promptly died from an event monster. Oh well... 38th level again. It was not long after that I quit playing.

The harsh death penalties do not make game the tougher. It makes it more frustrating.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

For me, harsh death penalties makes me timid. It has nothing to do with the game difficulty. I don't mind corpse runs, yet I DO mind losing levels or precious currency.

When I played EQ, I actually got my bard up to 39th level, with the help of a guild. I recall when I just made 39th level, I ran through the Eastern Commons and aggroed and then promptly died from an event monster. Oh well... 38th level again. It was not long after that I quit playing.

The harsh death penalties do not make game the tougher. It makes it more frustrating.

Some people are not able to handle that frustration well and it affect their performance in the game.  In a harsh penalty game they are worse players and thus it makes the game more difficult for them.  Others can set that frustration aside and while it might affect their decisions outside the game (ie whether they quit or not) it has little effect on their actual performance in the game.

Personally, I can't handle depression well so if things in the game get depressing it will affect my performance a lot.  Frustration I can handle so I see not effect on the difficulty of the game. 

In general I see harsh death penalties as a crutch for players who cannot enjoy the game without that additional emotional element. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Creslin321

Axe did you really just compare harsh DP MMORPGs with card and board games?  Those games don't even have any concepts that could be remotely related to a death penalty.  Besides, showing that the majority of games don't have harsh DP's doesn't prove anything.  There are still games out there that do have harsh DP's and some of them have sold fairly well, and really, that's all that matters.  There is a market for people that enjoy harsh DP's.

We all realize that you are diametrically opposed to harsh DP's and that is perfectly fine.  However, there are some people that enjoy harsher DPs, this is also perfectly fine.  Different strokes for different folks.

It's a counterpoint to any idea that EVE somehow represents a significant number of players, when it doesn't.  As originally stated: games with harsh DP are the tiniest drop in the ocean of gaming.

Personally I'd dispute the idea that there's something fundamentally different from MMORPGs than any other game.  They're all games.  Their purpose is entertainment.  No trait of MMORPGs fundamentally necessitates harsh DP.  Punishment simply isn't a core part of how people are entertained, and that's reflected throughout all entertainment products; games with harsh failure conditions are an ultra-niche.

It's a counterpoint that doesn't make any sense.  You're comparing games with death penalties, like MMORPGs, to games that, by design, have no concept of a death penalty, like Checkers or Poker.

It would be like saying "vehicles with wings are extremely niche and unpopular because when you look at the set of all vehicles only few have wings."  See how silly this is?  Of course cars don't have wings, they have no need for them, and they don't even make sense in the context of a car.