I can't speak to this too much simply because... I don't want to, but what I can say is the following:

IP games in general kind of suck, overall.  Most especially those done AFTER a great film success, like the spiderman movies, or anything where they try to capitalize on the success of an IP simply due to its newfound widespread success.  Transformers is just one of those titles.  It isn't just MMOs... its usually the entire genre.  The IP sells the games,  so its okay for them to skimp on the gameplay... they've been doing that for decades.

Second.  SWTOR is a very big MMO that many people are waiting for... but its based not just around the IP but around two of the most popular RPGs in the last 10 years.  That being said,  it wouldn't be MUCH different than had they made a Mass Effect MMO instead.... however,  its unlikely they'll use ME as an MMO anytime soon as it most likely would compete directly with SWTOR.

he said " It’s been all Michael Bay’d and whatnot. I think a little part of me died when Optimus Prime actually used the words “My bad” in the movie"

Mikeys Ds.......Nat Geo.....GMA, its everywhere!

Lmao

I get the feeling that getting the rights to make an IP MMO is not small change; and the IP has to be paid for; as a result cost are cut and so is the quality of the game

OR

The company buying the IP is going to make a low budget MMO (because they can or because thats all they can do) and making the Game on said IP actually boost their sales more that if the attempted something original

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I can't speak to this too much simply because... I don't want to, but what I can say is the following:

 

IP games in general kind of suck, overall.  Most especially those done AFTER a great film success, like the spiderman movies, or anything where they try to capitalize on the success of an IP simply due to its newfound widespread success.  Transformers is just one of those titles.  It isn't just MMOs... its usually the entire genre.  The IP sells the games,  so its okay for them to skimp on the gameplay... they've been doing that for decades.

 

Second.  SWTOR is a very big MMO that many people are waiting for... but its based not just around the IP but around two of the most popular RPGs in the last 10 years.  That being said,  it wouldn't be MUCH different than had they made a Mass Effect MMO instead.... however,  its unlikely they'll use ME as an MMO anytime soon as it most likely would compete directly with SWTOR.

 

 I agree, but also think about this, I develop a game for "X" number of dollors and it sales for "Y" of dollars

I get an IP and it cost less than "X" number of dollars (Because I use a smaller Dev team thus a crappy release and game, buggy ect...)  and it sales for the same level of "Y" of dollars; I made my money "in house" by cutting cost and let the IP make up for the cost; course makes the IP look bad, but its business right.....lmao

The single biggest detriment to licensed IP games, not just MMOs, is that 99 out of 100 times the developers try to figure out how to make the IP conform to their game systems, instead of developing their game systems to conform to the IP.

I think in truth we have no way of knowing exactly how a game is doing financially. I understand that ppl look at AoC and WAR and think that they arent succesful games, but you dont need WoW numbers to make money for the developer. There is no doubt at all in my mind that these two games have made money both having box sales of 1mil+ afaik.

Actually WAR is one of my favorite games (for as long as I was playing=P) and what made it bad wasnt the IP but design desicions (like funnel players into smaller and smaller areas as the campaign progresses and eventually crashing the server at fort every god damn time). I cant tell for all the other games, most I havent played. But do ppl honestly believe that a game costing more money then it has brought in would still be going year after year? Makes little sense.

I have played a lot if mmo's  and some of those where IP mmo's.

The warhammer game had a big flaw from the start. 2 factions i mean how can you hope to make every player that plays his race happy with "your a faction now".

And that is not even looking at the s**t out of luck player who's race didnt fit (skaven, undead to name a pair).

But back to the point.

The big problem most devs have when getting a IP to work is 2 things :

1. The IP is a world ! ( even if it is only 1 city or 1 ship its a universe in it self and not a dang themepark )

Yes you can help people find stuff tell a story but stop pushing people from 1 point to the other most story's are that, a story it has a begining, middel and a end, not a end and the bit that gets you there !

2. misunderstanding  the IP.

This is a biggy, not only do you need to know how the game you want to make fits in the IP but also how do you place all the players of the game in the IP.

I think that that will be the big problem that Marvel Online will have if its going to be a true MMO, how does the IP handel 100 magneto's or any other char.

Same goes for LOTRO its a nice game but they misted the point that not everybody is one of the fellowship yet they do try and the players dont help.

Look at the number of legolasses or any other spelling that is used for any of the main characters.

So in closing my tips for a IP using firm would be :

1. First understand the IP.

Not only the book/movie but how will the ip handel 1000's of players all trying to be one of the char in the movie /book.

And more inportant can the IP handel that (if no then step away from a mmo) many people ? take battlestar galactica how many players are there that play a human hmm more than there are survivors in the series heck both series togethere.

2. Understand the IP. ( hmm whas that not point 1 ? )

Yes however this is a different aspact of the IP namely the game it self does the IP support the port to a game, in other words can the game support all the things that happen in the IP.

To get back to battlestar galactica yes flying is space ships can be done in a game, but where is the politics where are the personal relationships and drama these cant be put in the game as is.

3. Understand the char path.

To make a game all about the endgame is not going to work if LOTR (the book) was done as a mmo it would have been 2 pages about the journey and the rest about the epic fight in mount doom.

The game should be a story that is expirienced by the player through the use of a avatar in place of looking at a movie or reading a book.

So the story has to have a beginning a middel and a end . (but mmo's dont end?)

Correct the mmo has no real end that is why the avatar goes on a new journey and finds more adventure's

(Also the end of the story does not have to mean the end of leveling nor the beginning char creation).

Not have to do the same dungeon a zijloun times, in the story of jason and the argonauts i cant seem to remember the part where they ended up having to grind the last dungeon to get the golden fleece.

thus if you cant work the game without having to repeat stuff then step back and look at it again !

I could go on for a while like this but i think if devs would look before leaping the IP MMO's could be a lot more succesfull.

And finishing the game to a level that is at least playable and not a buggy heap of **** will also work. :)

P.S. English is not my native language, so please look over the typos :)

This is an interesting topic.  I was slightly dissappointed by the article, however, as I was assuming there would be a more indepth analysis on why using an established IP is detrimental to MMO development, or a demonstration of a causal relationship between IP use and MMO failure.

To be sure, Jon gave quite a list of IP-based MMOs that are considered failures throughout the MMO community.  Still, a list of non-IP-based MMOs would have yielded a similar record of failure.

Vanguard.  Tabula Rasa.  Auto Assault.  APB.  Aion.  Global Agenda.  Each one a real or perceived failure for reasons similar to the list Jon gave, none of which used a pre-existing IP.  And, the list could go on and on.

I think it is harder, and more restrictive, to use a major IP for a game.  Many IPs, as great as they may be, simply do not fit the MMO genre.  But, overall, I believe a lot of games - IP-based or not - are failing to hit the MMO mark these days.  Given a wider array of MMO types, and a schizophrenic community, I'm not sure many games will ever hit the mark like they used to when choices were more limited.

Well I don't think the problem lies with the IP itself being turned into an MMO.  The problem is that EVERY developer out there wants a clone of WoW.  This is what turns a lot of people off, I personally don't want to play a dumbed down, simplified game just so WoW players can learn how to play it without a "For Dummies" book.  Now there are some MMOs out there that still show potential even though they dumbed down the game, such as STO.  But for me, I'm waiting for TOR to launch and for Bioware to hopefully announce they are turning their Mass Effect franchise into an MMO (would be the best one out there)

I liked the Mummy. I thought it was excellent for a tongue-in-cheek movie. But a MMO based on it would have to be really amazing to get my attention. And I don't think anyone really sees that happening. I'd put my money on this getting canceled before going live.

I think maskedweasel hit the nail on the head there with regards to SW:TOR - BioWare pretty much invented the lore of that period in time (or at least the period directly before it) with KoTOR, they've said they picked the time-frame on purpose so as not to be overly restricted by established canon events and personalities.

I think that's a very clever way of side-stepping the IP trap so many games fell into.

I mean, let's be honest here, I know a lot of people want SWG2 (and aren't, by all accounts going to get it) but SW:TOR will 99% sure be a better representation of Star Wars than STO was of Star Trek...not that that would be a difficult task ; )

Meh. Yeah MMOs based off any third party IP is high potential for fail when the developers using the IP have no clue where to start on making a good game. It seems these companies don't have any ideas of their own so they feel that by buying the rights to someone else's idea that made money they will some how magically gain some kind of creative epiphany. Hasn't worked out that good so far in the world of MMOs. So far LOTRO is probably the best performer and it was a game so fettered by the constraints of the IP that they could not make the game "mainstream" enough to make it a massive success.

Watching these companies continue to chase their tails reminds me of what I call the "Wyld Stallyns Conundrum" inspired by the conversation between Bill and Ted at the begining of the movie Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, on how their band could become successful.

Bill:...Ted, while I agree that in time our band will be most triumphant, the truth is Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar.

Ted: Yes Bill, but I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video.

Bill: Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments.

Ted: Well how can we have decent instruments when we really don't even know how to play.

Bill: That is why we need Eddie Van Halen.

Ted: And that is why we need a triumphant video.

(Pause)

Both: Excellent. (Air Guitar.)

While that might seem a silly example I think it captures the thought process (or lack there of) of quite a few MMO companies. They want to get in on the big Wow money, but have no original ideas of their own, so they go out and buy the rights to a gold mine IP and then build a half assed game around it. Never do they realize that if they had just hired proper creative talent and had some idea of what framework they wanted to build a game around first, all their work might have been worth something.

For me, this is a lot like creating a video game from a movie or worse yet, creating a movie from a video game. Neither one of those situations ever really work out well, so I just avoid. When I see an MMO based on an existing non-gaming IP, I just ignore it.

That said, I don't think DDO should be in this list. It was always a game. It may not have been a video game (at first)  but it was still a game and spawned many video games based off of its rules and classes (some extremely successful ones) long before it was an MMO. The same could be said for Warhammer. I'm with you on everything else though.

It seems like a lot of companies just don't care about the long-term health of their MMOG. I mean, even if they can't please the user base, they'll find a ton of fans willing ot buy 3-4 copies of a game just to get a few digital exclusive items. What do they care if they pull in loads of box money and then let the game flounder and die as subs drop month by month? What's the real consequence of that? It's not as if the employees don't get picked right up if the company goes belly up.

I always thought IP games in general, not just MMOs were a lame-brain lazy way to try to make a buck. Even before the Internet, we had such "gems" as ET, Nightbreed, and the list goes on.

When will investors get it that what get players attention is originality? To be honest, even games with high fantasy characters turn me off these days. And I don't think I'm alone either. As an example, one of the games generating the most buzz right now is Secret World. And there is not an elf in sight in. EVE, one of the most endurng MMOs out there is also completely original. Not just in theme, but in execution as well.

Yep, people should drop the cookie cutter IPs and quit being lazy and just come with something original on their own. And enough high fantasy while we are at it too!

I can see why there is the appeal for IP based MMOs, and its something that the entire genre really needs to look at and look at hard.

There was another news item a long time ago that had posed the question, "Why are all the new games panning after the same demographic, the same audience, the same steroetypes with the same games?" Because that is what these games do, that's what MMOs have done. There is the audience of MMO players, which while still a large population and in many ways still a growing population, it is often rightfully classified as young (16-25) males, all of which have experience in at least a MMO and are branching out for another.

Using IPs were originally an idea to reach out to a new group of people, the fans of that IP that weren't neccessarily fans of MMOs in the first place. Granted, the demographic isn't often all that different with the IPs being chosen, but at some point the MMO market is going to have to vie for something more than a slice of the same pie that everyone else already has a slice of.

Really, one of the main issues with the IPs is how rabid the fan bases of the IPs have been in many cases. Between Warhammer, Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. the fanbases set requirements that are imbalanced or expectations that can't be met and thus are disappointments. In my opinion, its not a problem with IPs but a problem with the IPs being chosen.

I think that the MMO world does kinda have to expand or it will be the same group of MMO fans butterflying from one MMO to the next until they settle down for a bit, and if there's no expansion outside the current MMO-sphere than the slices are going to be thinner and thinner as MMOs will only be picking off of the leftovers of whoever already doesn't have a game.

Add The Matrix and Stargate to failed IPs

The biggest challenge to developers of MMOs based on well known IPs is fan expectations. Fans of any particular IP know it inside and out and this sets certain expectations... no, requirements in their minds of what should be in a game. These requirements are not always possible due to many factors from simple game mechanics to time/investment restraints to IP holders desires of what 'their' game should be like. Also fan expectations change accross the fanbase so what the IP means to fan 'a' may be totally different than what fans 'b' or 'c' may want. Anytime you develop a well known IP into a game it's bound to disappoint or even alienate a certain percentage of the fanbase of said IP.

Star Trek Online is a perfect example of this. I followed the development of this game very closely both here and on Startrek-online.net(PE) as well as on Cryptic's forum. One thing I noticed is the expectations of the fanbase varied greatly from individual to individual. These expectations went from a total 'Star Trek life simulator' to a strict Star Fleet Command MMO. There was no way they could possibly make the entire fanbase happy with one game. This splintered the fanbase into many camps where STO was concerned. These camps varied from those that loved the direction of the development to those that felt it would kill the franchise forever. As a result they had to develop a game that a very small percentage of the fanbase actually liked.

This is the pitfall of developing a well known IP into a game and is one that is impossible to overcome. No matter what you decide to put in your game it's gonna piss off a certain percentage of the IP's fanbase. Sometimes, like in the case of STO that percentage can be an overwhelming obsticle that can't be overcome as the fanbase is just to splintered over what they expect from the game. In cases like this you end up with a game that only caters to maybe less than 10 percent of the fanbase which isn't enough to keep a game alive.

Disclaimer: I used STO as an example as it's the one I have the most in depth knowledge of the development. I don't like or play STO so this is in no way a defence of what Cryptic did to this wonderful IP. I may not like their final product but I do understand what made it fail so completely... Fan expectations that were impossible to make a reality as they varied too greatly and a good percentage would have been nearly impossible to code in the time Cryptic gave themselves to complete the game.

Bren

Originally posted by Ph33rles

I can see why there is the appeal for IP based MMOs, and its something that the entire genre really needs to look at and look at hard.

There was another news item a long time ago that had posed the question, "Why are all the new games panning after the same demographic, the same audience, the same steroetypes with the same games?" Because that is what these games do, that's what MMOs have done. There is the audience of MMO players, which while still a large population and in many ways still a growing population, it is often rightfully classified as young (16-25) males, all of which have experience in at least a MMO and are branching out for another.

Using IPs were originally an idea to reach out to a new group of people, the fans of that IP that weren't neccessarily fans of MMOs in the first place. Granted, the demographic isn't often all that different with the IPs being chosen, but at some point the MMO market is going to have to vie for something more than a slice of the same pie that everyone else already has a slice of.

 

Oddly enough, I read something a few months back (in an actual newspaper) which reported "The largest growing demograpic for MMO's is the 30+ age bracket". Since I can't remember what the reporter based this off, I'll just call this anecdotal information.