Originally posted by baldernono

I just can't believe passwords were stored in "plaintext". Even my poor php/mysql hash the password

 

The main problem in my opinion is not that password is encrypted or not. The main problem is they managed to access these data !!

The main problem is that these hackers are accessing this data.  End of story.  Without these hackers, security wouldn't be a concern.  Why do people dance around the fundamental reason that there has to be security in the first place?   Make no mistakes, the hackers are the ONLY ones responsible for the problems of those who have had their information leaked.  Nothing is completely secure when it's online.  There will always be a way to hack networks.  It's the hackers that take the time and dedicate themselves to hacking the networks that are the problem. 

Personally, I would love to see them put on terrorrist lists and hunted for life until they are caught.  Once found, handle them BinLaden style (how do ya spell that?  lol).  They want to make examples of a company, well make an example out of them as well.

I'm not too concerned about my info being stolen, because there isn't much they can do with my identity.  Unless they want around 50k in medical bills and 25k in school loans, then go for it.  I only got hit for around 500 bucks with the last hack which was all refunded to me.  However, the day I found out about the hacked account I ended up in the ER for cardiac problems.  I spent a week in the hospital having various tests done before I was shipped via ambulance to OSU MC's cardiac center in Columbus.  So while I'm getting poked and prodded and prepped for a cardiac procedure I have to worry about taking care of my bank account so I'm not out the 500 bucks. 

People will argue that the user's aren't "hurt", but make no mistakes the real vicitms are the users.  Companies bring in large sums of money and loose large sums of money.  It's what they do and they have ways to recover.  How about the average working person?  500 bucks may not be much but it's a lot more of a dent in my account than a small dip in profits to the large corporations. 

Am I pissed off about the hackers?  Yep.   Do I want more justice than is deserved?  Yep. 

That doesn't change the fact that the primary problem isn't a user's password, it isn't how hard a company is to hack into, it isn't how that information is encrypted, it is the people who set out to obtain that information and misuse it.  WIthout these assholes we wouldn't need the security in the first place.  End of story.

Microsoft =))

gotta lov em

Originally posted by jmsgalla

Originally posted by baldernono

I just can't believe passwords were stored in "plaintext". Even my poor php/mysql hash the password

 

The main problem in my opinion is not that password is encrypted or not. The main problem is they managed to access these data !!

The main problem is that these hackers are accessing this data.  End of story.  Without these hackers, security wouldn't be a concern.  Why do people dance around the fundamental reason that there has to be security in the first place?   Make no mistakes, the hackers are the ONLY ones responsible for the problems of those who have had their information leaked.  Nothing is completely secure when it's online.  There will always be a way to hack networks.  It's the hackers that take the time and dedicate themselves to hacking the networks that are the problem. 

Personally, I would love to see them put on terrorrist lists and hunted for life until they are caught.  Once found, handle them BinLaden style (how do ya spell that?  lol).  They want to make examples of a company, well make an example out of them as well.

I'm not too concerned about my info being stolen, because there isn't much they can do with my identity.  Unless they want around 50k in medical bills and 25k in school loans, then go for it.  I only got hit for around 500 bucks with the last hack which was all refunded to me.  However, the day I found out about the hacked account I ended up in the ER for cardiac problems.  I spent a week in the hospital having various tests done before I was shipped via ambulance to OSU MC's cardiac center in Columbus.  So while I'm getting poked and prodded and prepped for a cardiac procedure I have to worry about taking care of my bank account so I'm not out the 500 bucks. 

People will argue that the user's aren't "hurt", but make no mistakes the real vicitms are the users.  Companies bring in large sums of money and loose large sums of money.  It's what they do and they have ways to recover.  How about the average working person?  500 bucks may not be much but it's a lot more of a dent in my account than a small dip in profits to the large corporations. 

Am I pissed off about the hackers?  Yep.   Do I want more justice than is deserved?  Yep. 

That doesn't change the fact that the primary problem isn't a user's password, it isn't how hard a company is to hack into, it isn't how that information is encrypted, it is the people who set out to obtain that information and misuse it.  WIthout these assholes we wouldn't need the security in the first place.  End of story.

Not that I agree with the approach taken by the hackers, but if companies didn't data mine their customers, security wouldn't be needed either.  Put a large amount of valuable "assets" in one place and someone is going to try and take them.  If it wasn't the case, banks wouldn't need vaults, jewelry and electronics stores wouldn't need security measures and websites wouldn't need to secure customer information.  Yeah, humans suck for the most part... we are opportunistic, morally lacking and vindictive, petty creatures (for the most part).  However, that is the way it is and it doesn't look like it will change soon.  Someone or some company willfully ignoring that is at fault as well.  To what degree, I don't know, but certainly they share in the blame.

Originally posted by Dalgor

If your still messing around with SoE, then you shoulda known this was coming sooner or later, SoE has been pissing gamers and hackers off for a long time, and once Sony came out and said hackers couldnt touch them, I knew they were done for. The hackers will get the most blame for this, tho its clearly Sonys fault, they need to close their doors already.

 

P.S. Whos dumb enough to store their personal information with the companys? Every company these days has an option to remove your information after paying for your subscription so you never have to store your info with them, if you choose not to do that, its your own fault.

 When did sony come out and say hackers can't touch them? If anything , that is the reason why they are getting hacked.

All this wha wha wha hackers are bad and shouldnt do this is a load of bullcrap, since what 3 or 4 decades now most gamers have been hackers its just the way of the world, and I bet these hackers WERE Sony gamers, before Sony ruinned themselves their games and tried to act all big and bad.

Hackers have been here, always have, always will, you notice they didnt get any attention for decades, untill now, they've gotten fed up with the BS spewing forth from this company and the Taunting by a particular company, so they answered back!

Guess people are finally getting a wake up call that the internet isnt secure, it never has been, but they just didnt have blind proof so they've just tried to stay oblivious. If it can be made, it can be hacked, just accept it, it sucks if your information got put on the web, but all you have to do it go and change your info, when Sony finally closes it wont be an issue anymore.

Originally posted by Dalgor

All this wha wha wha hackers are bad and shouldnt do this is a load of bullcrap, since what 3 or 4 decades now most gamers have been hackers its just the way of the world, and I bet these hackers WERE Sony gamers, before Sony ruinned themselves their games and tried to act all big and bad.

Hackers have been here, always have, always will, you notice they didnt get any attention for decades, untill now, they've gotten fed up with the BS spewing forth from this company and the Taunting by a particular company, so they answered back!

Guess people are finally getting a wake up call that the internet isnt secure, it never has been, but they just didnt have blind proof so they've just tried to stay oblivious. If it can be made, it can be hacked, just accept it, it sucks if your information got put on the web, but all you have to do it go and change your info, when Sony finally closes it wont be an issue anymore.

 Spoken like a true hacker.

What if, as a result of this data leak somebody, it might be you,  falls victom to financial fraud?    That is my biggest concern here.

I couldn't give a rats ass about my SOE account, or any other sony account I have. Just my info that could be used to start bank accounts, credit cards, cell phone accounts,  checks, and whatever have you.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Again, as I said in my PM response to you, you are convienently misreading posts. In my post as well in those of others here we have expressed sympathy for those customers who have suffered. One can express sympathy but also note that those affected should have known something like this could/would happen to Sony/SOE of all folks. Especially with their MMO history. They most certainly have pissed some people off such that they would do this kind of thing to them (Sony/SOE).

And I don't remember reading (may have missed it) a post where it was said the customers derserved it.  1)

I've only seen where folks said Sony/SOE deserved to get hacked. As I tried to point out in my initial response (which it seems in the passion of the moment that part was passed over) it was a logical thing for those hackers to do if they wanted to hurt Sony/SOE bad. Hurting their customers hurts them.

Now, don't try to force morals into that last statement. Logic has nothing to do with right and wrong. Most here would agree that it was morally wrong. But again, that has nothing to do with if what they did was logically, tactically right to achieve the end result they wanted, which again, was to hurt Sony/SOE. And hurting customers to the point they don't feel safe in doing business with a company will produce that result 2).

 

1) I'm most definitely not misreading posts, I think I caught the implications quite well.

Originally posted by Belight

Interesting point. Fortunatly for me I'm an asshole who generally hates people and am laughing at this whole thing.

I cana gree that anyone who uses the leaked info to charge soemthing to someone elses account is a thief. But I dunno, I just don't seem to care.

I guess I view this as more of a wake up call for peopel to be safe with their info and to not just trust and hand over their information to corporations. Again I'm a dick with no sympathy.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

That said I'm a SWG vet that doesn't spend my ever day wishing for bad stuff to happen but I certainly don't feel bad about things like this happening to Sony/SOE. I feel bad for the people whose information got put out there, but the other part of me says not to feel too bad as many (of which I was one) have pointed out terrible of a company this is to do business with. It's like telling someone not to play Russian Roulette with a .44 Magnum, and they ignore you anyway. Well, once they shoot their toe off, are you gonna feel bad? I wouldn't.

Just a few examples, there were more people who said similar things. So, because you had a bad experience because they diminished your gaming fun when they changed a game that was precious to you, suddenly it's such a bad company that it deserves to be punished and everyone that did business with them deserves it too, because it apparently is their own fault? What's next? Funcom? Or EA, Activision, Cryptic or NCSoft?

 And again, you are misreading and trying to put intent as best you can behind words that just aren't there. You keep harping on the word "deserves" when, at least in my own writing, I never said they deserved it. I sure illustrated how their actions in ignoring the bad press Sony/SOE has gotten in the multitudes and doing business with them anyway got them in the predicament they are in know.  As I said in our other pm conversations all of us in this gaming/computer community know about hackers. We know how the slightest thing can give them reason to act. And, again, we know that SOE in particular's action of the recent past have given plenty of reason for said hackers to act. Again, right or wrong isn't my argument, cause and effect is.

 

 

2) It has much in common with the mindset of a terrorist: there are no real innocents if they're linked to the target, and if it'll damage the target by hurting bystanders, then that's how it has to be. It's how they justified killing people with the 9/11 attacks, because it'd hurt their target, the US as government and nation. And yes, I went so far to make that comparison. Even if no one is killed, the mentality, a 'the end justifies any means' mindset is the same.

 

Here, as I said in PM is where you are wrong again. As I pointed out before the idea of the "ends justifies the means" was formalized by Niccolo Machiavelli in the early 1500s in a book called The Prince (Il Principe). One of his points was that rulers (leaders) must be conscious of reputation but also be ready to act immorally. And, as I said in pm this book is held in high regard by people all over the world. It is given as reading in schools. Goverment leaders practice its teachings as well as probably more than a few execs at Sony/SOE.

Again, the argument I'm making here is not the moral one so let's stay away from easy sympathy getters like invoking the 9/11 attacks to use as comparisons (and I won't invoke how many people I've known and/or trained who aren't coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, mkay). The argument I'm making is not an emotional one. It's the cold point that they did logically what they needed to do to cause the most harm. That doesn't mean I condone it, it just means I recognize they did what they had to do in order to get you and me and others here talking about this today for as long as we have. If they hadn't released people's info, this would all but be a non-story.

 

Also, so far all the arguments I've read why Sony deserved it by the people cheering those hackers on come down to this:

'they diminished my gaming fun when they made changes in the game I loved to play, and that's why they deserve to be destroyed even if the means is damaging a million+ of bystanders in the process'

Well, then, you haven't paid much attention to the goings on at Sony/SOE over the last few years, especially with regards to MMO gaming. I'm not surprised people aren't going to outline bullet point by point for you here the reasons why. Why? Well, 1) the mods would jump in and say that there are already threads in the appropriate forums for such discussion and 2) see number one.

Now, personally, I never cheered the hackers on. That said, there is nothing that says I can't smile a bit at what happened to Sony/SOE. No where is it mandated that I have to like that company. In fact, they have purposefully taken actions for me not to like them. I can't tell you how much I wish they never had done the NGE, which most likely never would have led to these attacks, which would mean you and I wouldn't be having this conversation and ultimately would mean I would be checking harvesters and looking for resource shift changes right about now.

So, yeah, I'm not wasting my days wishing for stuff like this to happen to Sony/SOE, but you better believe if it does, I don't feel sorry for that company, for sure. Customers that were hurt, absolutly I feel sorry for (though I maintain there is enough information out there to educate folks in who they are dealing with in SOE in particular). SOE didn't feel sorry for me when they switched their game with the NGE so why should I ever feel sorry for them for any reason (other than loss of life).

 

Wow. There are simply no words to describe that kind of mentality.

 

I can only say that if that's the kind of mentality that is dominant in some groups of MMO gamers, then I hope there won't be many of those on the servers I play on. It's certainly a hell of a lot more vindictive and negative and a league away from the vibe and mindset of the MMO gamers of the very first years of MMO gaming, at least on the servers I played on.

The Machiavellian philosophy of the ends justifying the means is rampant in MMOG gaming, Maverick. It really isn't that hard to see. Kill stealing, PvP ganking, griefing of all sorts. And don't try to play that "it didn't happen in the old days" card. I was there the first day the Ultima Online servers were up. I felt full force the roving bands of Reds while I was out killing dear for hides and meat. I watched people get suicide ganked for those of you who remember what that is.

Originally posted by Dalgor

All this wha wha wha hackers are bad and shouldnt do this is a load of bullcrap, since what 3 or 4 decades now most gamers have been hackers its just the way of the world, and I bet these hackers WERE Sony gamers, before Sony ruinned themselves their games and tried to act all big and bad.

Hackers have been here, always have, always will, you notice they didnt get any attention for decades, untill now, they've gotten fed up with the BS spewing forth from this company and the Taunting by a particular company, so they answered back!

Guess people are finally getting a wake up call that the internet isnt secure, it never has been, but they just didnt have blind proof so they've just tried to stay oblivious. If it can be made, it can be hacked, just accept it, it sucks if your information got put on the web, but all you have to do it go and change your info, when Sony finally closes it wont be an issue anymore.

Google pays white hat hackers who help identify bugs. Microsoft permits hackers to unlock its Kinect gaming device and invites some of them to its conferences.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_21/b4229035889849.htm

Of course. One could convincingly argue that the two companies above deal with different products which do not involve personal information or unknown hackers. And the whole SOE saga, I admit, is different and very damaging. So there is room for debate.

Oh don't start the "don't blame SOE, it's not their fault" part, SOE actually ADMITTED that they didn't take action when they were warned and didn't have proper server security (outdated webservers and firewalls) and they didn't properly store passwords and stored an outdated database (which most of those user data are still valid today) sitting there. Every website you know of today gets hit everyday by hack attempts, servers with good enough security and firewalls will fend off the attacks (but can suffer online downtime due to traffic overload). Systems at UBC here in Vancouver was DDoS'd for 4 months straight, and there were no breach.

I'm not even logging into any of the games with the 45 day free sub.

Originally posted by Dalgor

All this wha wha wha hackers are bad and shouldnt do this is a load of bullcrap, since what 3 or 4 decades now most gamers have been hackers its just the way of the world, and I bet these hackers WERE Sony gamers, before Sony ruinned themselves their games and tried to act all big and bad.

Hackers have been here, always have, always will, you notice they didnt get any attention for decades, untill now, they've gotten fed up with the BS spewing forth from this company and the Taunting by a particular company, so they answered back!

Guess people are finally getting a wake up call that the internet isnt secure, it never has been, but they just didnt have blind proof so they've just tried to stay oblivious. If it can be made, it can be hacked, just accept it, it sucks if your information got put on the web, but all you have to do it go and change your info, when Sony finally closes it wont be an issue anymore.

This is a bull shit argument as well.  Information isn't safe ANYWHERE outside of the protection of your house and even then if someone wanted it they can get it.  Have bank account?  Think that information is safe?  All it takes is one teller to go bad and start keeping a list of the account information they have access to.  If someone thought their information was safe on the internet then they were a fool to believe so.  Most people were just willing to accept the risk of having their shit stolen just like they do anywhere.

Park your car at WalMart, lock the doors, set the alarm, some jackass comes and smashes the window with a tire iron and steals your radio or the car itself.  Is it WalMart's fault now?  Is it your fault for not having unbreakable glass windows?  It's the fault of the thieves.

Hackers ARE "bad" as you so elquently put it, and they should NOT do what they are doing.  There are different ways to handle problems.  People died at the trade center in 2k because of some whacko's beliefs.  We didn't have enough security.  Was that the best way to find out?  Was using innocent victims the best way to make a point?  It's a bit more severe but the "weapon" used to drive the point home is still the innocent victims.

The situation sucks and whatever support these hackers may have had in the past is dwindling down with each stunt they pull.  It will get worse.  I don't doubt that.  However, in the end they will be handled.

Originally posted by Renoaku

 In my Opinion sony does deserve to go down, and you can read the full post here of why.

http://pastebin.com/MNUftZmt

The deserve to go down because of chasing after a kid for modifying his own PS3 which he never legally signed any legally binding contract with sony that said he couldn't, they also screwed over many customers, and that is the very short version of the things that sony has done.

Just FYI I support the EFF,  http://www.eff.org/action

We the people have rights, and some people just try to shut us up but it doesn't work now does it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PDhjNF9eUQ Take this for example.

Rich companies mean nothing, and you all can go broke just as fast if you loose a lot of its player base which no doubt sony already has.

Originally posted by sungodra

Originally posted by Dalgor

If your still messing around with SoE, then you shoulda known this was coming sooner or later, SoE has been pissing gamers and hackers off for a long time, and once Sony came out and said hackers couldnt touch them, I knew they were done for. The hackers will get the most blame for this, tho its clearly Sonys fault, they need to close their doors already.

 

P.S. Whos dumb enough to store their personal information with the companys? Every company these days has an option to remove your information after paying for your subscription so you never have to store your info with them, if you choose not to do that, its your own fault.

 When did sony come out and say hackers can't touch them? If anything , that is the reason why they are getting hacked.

 http://www.tqcast.com/2010/07/13/so-much-for-hacking-the-ps3-ps3-remains-unhackable/

http://n4g.com/news/717835/ps3-firmware-3-60-unhackable/com

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/07/14/geohot-retiring-ps3-will-remain-unhackable/

These are just a few, you can search google and just see a slew of it, Sony originally said all their stuff was unhackable, and that was when all of this started, since then they've changed their tune, but once you opwn pandoras box its kinda hard to close, surprizing that.

P.S. I understand your worry about your infomation being leaked and the chances of finacial fraud, if you have any of this information stored with Sony, I would remove it and change it, if you not sure and really worried, I'd get a new card, Banks do it pretty willingly. Personally any company that makes me keep my Credit Card information, or Address information on their site doesnt get my business, Square Enix used to be the worst about this. Giving them the information to pay for something and then immediatly removing it is what you want to be doing in any situation where you paying Online.

Guess Sony wasn't using any of that money for improving their network and security. Fail, thanks again Sony.

Is it right, no.  Did they get what was coming to them, yes.  I for one am glad that there are people that can cripple mega corporations.  It would be a scary world without them. It's about time someone Fight clubbed the U.S. and Chinese Governments (insert any other ridculous "righteous" government i.e. Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Israel, Yemen) for all the crap they pull

Originally posted by onehunerdper

Is it right, no.  Did they get what was coming to them, yes.  I for one am glad that there are people that can cripple mega corporations.  It would be a scary world without them. It's about time someone Fight clubbed the U.S. and Chinese Governments (insert any other ridculous "righteous" government i.e. Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Israel, Yemen) for all the crap they pull

Meanwhile im chilling as i never use real data, its kinda funny also. People buttmad cause data got "openly" out while its normal to accept agbs that often permit trading personal data forth.

Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by onehunerdper

Is it right, no.  Did they get what was coming to them, yes.  I for one am glad that there are people that can cripple mega corporations.  It would be a scary world without them. It's about time someone Fight clubbed the U.S. and Chinese Governments (insert any other ridculous "righteous" government i.e. Iran, Sudan, North Korea, Israel, Yemen) for all the crap they pull

 

People still fail to see big picture. The big picture is this: Sony is a company may be hurt. But the high ranking employees will still have jobs if Sony crumbles. No one important is getting hurt here. Only customers. Because Sony took legal action against someone that was doing something illegal.

It's actually more complicated than that.  Sony changed the end user agreement for the Playstation and someone figured out how to make the Playstation act the way it originally did.  They then took legal action against him for telling people how to make the Playstation work the way it originally did under the end user agreement the Playstation was purchased under.  In that perspective, I have to disagree with Sony.  When you buy something under a certain agreement and the company changes that agreement AFTER the fact, you should not be bound by the new terms if you do not agree to them.

Sony, how the mighty have fallen.  Maybe I will not get my Vaio laptop fixed and switch to another company after all.

Originally posted by teakbois

George Hotz is not a kid. he is 21 years old and knew full well what he was doing is illegal. he just didnt think he would be called out on it like that. Was sony wrong in requesting those IP addresses? It was an ill thought out scare tactic. Its not like they were going to do anything with them. What could they do with them? Watching a youtube video is not equal to hacking your ps3. But this image of big bad corporation going after this innocent little kid is absurd.

 Ho come on dude George Hotz showed to Sony how he broke thier PS3 with the purpose to get some job from them (at least what he claim when he delivered the info), and the guys at Sony decided to sue him... Nice.

As if they couldn't just get him a job... I mean its not like they would have loose something really, the guy is a kind of genius; some poeple tryed to break the ps3 for years already.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

(snips)

SOE didn't feel sorry for me when they switched their game with the NGE so why should I ever feel sorry for them for any reason (other than loss of life).

I took the privilege to shorten the quote to what I think it's really about, the rest of your comments I already reacted upon in my own PM reply. Basically it sounds like you're ok that SOE or even the larger company Sony got damaged or if possible even destroyed, because they hurt your gaming fun back in the days with SWG.

In fact, from reading your comments you're ok if hackers went so far and attacked other companies that hurt your gaming fun  in some way. Maybe even those (gaming) companies that didn't hurt you but that behaved in a samelike way to their customers like maybe an Activision, EA, Cryptic, Funcom, Square Enix or NCSoft, but you'll probably feel less emotionally attached towards the punishment of those if you yourself weren't hurt by them. The principle however is that you'd agree with it if hackers would assault others companies like that in the same way to make their point. Am I correct?

Here's where I agree to disagree

Originally posted by someforumguy

Necessary? There are other ways without spilling customers personal information all over internet. For the customers in question, the 'real issue' is their personal information, not Sony.

You can say that Sony doesnt care about the customers, but apparently the hackers (or crackers whatever) dont care about them either. Actually they are worse, they put customers in harms way on purpose.

So only two parties to blame here. The hackers and in this case Sony Pictures.

This.

I think there are 2 separate things in this here. First you have the hackers who started attacking to send a message: that message is 'if you attack 1 of our own, we will come after you and destroy you and we will show you the power we have'. THAT is the message that they wanted to send out, to any company who dares to even attempt to go after them. A message of fear. While I strongly disagree with how some companies do their business, I equally dislike a group of hackers running rampant for the lolz of it with no regard for which other internet users they damage in the process. It sounds like a group of joyriders that have great fun riding over the boulevards no matter who they run over in the process.

The second thing is that some people here are completely ok with what these hackers did and even gleeful about it, because they feel Sony deserves it.

And from what I gather from reading the many comments on this site, this cheering on isn't for some noble reason like that the company might destroy people's lives with their actions in third world countries or such, but for a very simple and basic reason, namely that SOE (not  even Sony as overall company) hurt their gaming fun with SWG 6 years ago, after which their grievance and witch hunt towards SOE or Sony started. And apparently, to some, was never let go of that hatred or grudge.

For as far as I see it, 1 simple, almost trivial after 6 years, act namely that SOE changed the gameplay in a game they made.

At least, this is the argument that I see people give most as reason why Sony deserves it, so apparently this is the most important reason to them why people wish any misfortune on Sony even if it's something where 1 million and more people and their private information are struck as collateral damage.