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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sandbox vs Themepark Discussion Thread

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468 posts found
  DLangley

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 1430

 
OP  6/02/11 5:09:12 PM#1

In an effort to consolidate the numerous discussion threads on this topic, please use this thread to compare and contrast these two MMORPG models. In the future, any thread created in the Pub outside of this one will be locked and redirected here. As with any other thread, all of the forum rules apply here :).

 Remember to stay on topic.

Thanks.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 5:13:10 PM#2

Haha I was wondering when this would be created. :)

Venge

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11822

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/02/11 5:21:56 PM#3

Cool beans.

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

6/02/11 5:31:03 PM#4

Lol, a consolidation thread. Ah well, it was to be expected

 

From another thread:

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And yet many consider EQ to be  sandbox despite not being able to do anything of the things you mentioned and IMO WoW offeres more choice than that.

Venge

Fallen earth is a pretty hybrid IMO.

There are just as many, even more, that consider EQ a themepark MMO.

I think EQ is neither, but that's a discussion for another thread. UO was a clear example of a sandbox MMO.

If you want to compare and see the differences, compare with UO.

 

The mistake that many make, less options and features doesn't make an MMORPG a true sandbox MMO. Providing player tools for creating player content and giving the players the freedom to use them, that's what MMO's that lean towards the sandbox style gameplay offer, where players have a larger influence on their environments ingame.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 5:46:15 PM#5

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  sagil

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 282

6/02/11 5:48:23 PM#6

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5889

6/02/11 5:58:43 PM#7
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18716

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

6/02/11 5:59:32 PM#8
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

It allows players to control and actually improve areas of space in 0.0.  This gives players a reason to hold territory, defend it against all others, and actively strive to take other peoples space from them in order to control the better resources that their territory may possess. (stations, ore, npc's, moon mines etc).

This results in player forming vast alliances with a political complexity rivaling the real world, with spying, invasions, desperate home defenses and of course, the random gank as you roam through space.

WOW has nothing like this, not even close, and all of this is made possible by the tools CCP provides in EVE.

Edit: In fact, I'd say that if anything really sets most sandboxes apart from themeparks is the ability to control territory, though DAOC was a themepark that managed to emulate this somewhat by encouraging players to take Castles in order to gain control of Darkness falls which was the premier resource source at the time.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

6/02/11 5:59:36 PM#9
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

 A territory warfare system, player based economy, where the best gear is crafted (slightly applies to WoW until endgame, then it's all raid gear), tools for exploration (wormholes and such), no limits on how many players can participate in a battle (restricting it is restricting freedom, one of the main things that seperate themepark and sandboxes), alter the environment (planetary interaction, POS).

  MMO.Maverick

Inquisitor

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 7792

The middle road is the place to be!

6/02/11 6:01:55 PM#10
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

+1 fail at grasping essence of sandbox MMO's.

 

Advice: play some different types of MMO's besides WoW/themepark MMO's. GL

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Edit: In fact, I'd say that if anything really sets most sandboxes apart from themeparks is the ability to control territory, though DAOC was a themepark that managed to emulate this somewhat by encouraging players to take Castles in order to gain control of Darkness falls which was the premier resource source at the time.

DAoC would be more of a sandbox MMO or a hybrid sandbox MMO if players could build castles and keeps all over the world or at least large parts of it, and if those castles could be conquered by other factions.

Territory control is one sandbox aspect, I'd say a heavier emphasis and focus on player crafting and crafted items and an economy that's built on those above looted or raid gear is another.  Or player houses/towns/bases/stations that can be built everywhere.

The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

6/02/11 6:03:26 PM#11
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

 Hmm..I'm smelling a hint of a troll. Please explain why a sandbox with lots of content is a themepark MMOexposed.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

6/02/11 6:03:54 PM#12
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

 try reading through the threads you create:

Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.

Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability. 

Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this.  End game may or may not be relevant.  A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers.  And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained.  re OP.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 6:12:10 PM#13
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

It allows players to control and actually improve areas of space in 0.0.  This gives players a reason to hold territory, defend it against all others, and actively strive to take other peoples space from them in order to control the better resources that their territory may possess. (stations, ore, npc's, moon mines etc).

This results in player forming vast alliances with a political complexity rivaling the real world, with spying, invasions, desperate home defenses and of course, the random gank as you roam through space.

WOW has nothing like this, not even close, and all of this is made possible by the tools CCP provides in EVE.

Edit: In fact, I'd say that if anything really sets most sandboxes apart from themeparks is the ability to control territory, though DAOC was a themepark that managed to emulate this somewhat by encouraging players to take Castles in order to gain control of Darkness falls which was the premier resource source at the time.

 But it does.  There are areas with towers of keeps you can control (Eastern plaguelands) and I'm told in Lich King expansion (I've never actually played this) there are more player controlled areas like this.

In a PVP realm in Wow there is nothing stopping a guild or players from controlling one particular zone and fighting to keep it (south shore anyway - a major gankfest of just horde killing alliance). 

No WoW cannot improve (I allready talked about building) those areas but they can keep them.

The spying, invasions, defense, that can all be done in WoW.  It normally isn't but it can be.

And if control territory is what sets them apart what apart all the so-called sandboxes that don't allow that - Istaria for one.

Venge

edit - since those can be done in WoW but the population chooses not to most of the time, does this mean that a major difference between sandbox and themepark is simply choice?

edit - aside from what bladstrom and I allready decided.  :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

6/02/11 6:18:11 PM#14
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And if control territory is what sets them apart what apart all the so-called sandboxes that don't allow that - Istaria for one.

 You asked what was different from EVE and WoW (sans housing), not what had to be had to make it a sandbox. And my post covers more differences.

But in general, Bladestorm sums it up nicely.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

6/02/11 6:20:29 PM#15
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

It allows players to control and actually improve areas of space in 0.0.  This gives players a reason to hold territory, defend it against all others, and actively strive to take other peoples space from them in order to control the better resources that their territory may possess. (stations, ore, npc's, moon mines etc).

This results in player forming vast alliances with a political complexity rivaling the real world, with spying, invasions, desperate home defenses and of course, the random gank as you roam through space.

WOW has nothing like this, not even close, and all of this is made possible by the tools CCP provides in EVE.

Edit: In fact, I'd say that if anything really sets most sandboxes apart from themeparks is the ability to control territory, though DAOC was a themepark that managed to emulate this somewhat by encouraging players to take Castles in order to gain control of Darkness falls which was the premier resource source at the time.

 But it does.  There are areas with towers of keeps you can control (Eastern plaguelands) and I'm told in Lich King expansion (I've never actually played this) there are more player controlled areas like this.

In a PVP realm in Wow there is nothing stopping a guild or players from controlling one particular zone and fighting to keep it (south shore anyway - a major gankfest of just horde killing alliance). 

No WoW cannot improve (I allready talked about building) those areas but they can keep them.

The spying, invasions, defense, that can all be done in WoW.  It normally isn't but it can be.

And if control territory is what sets them apart what apart all the so-called sandboxes that don't allow that - Istaria for one.

Venge

edit - since those can be done in WoW but the population chooses not to most of the time, does this mean that a major difference between sandbox and themepark is simply choice?

edit - aside from what bladstrom and I allready decided.  :)

  There are areas with towers of keeps you can control (Eastern plaguelands) - it never took off even when they added the towers so falls under the same banner ie population chose to do other activites (at the time it was farming rep for ..gear)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 6:29:03 PM#16
Originally posted by Draron
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would generally agree with that as well.  The availability of tools that allow for player created content (despit what we discussed that particular thread) does make a game more sandboxy.

The question comes down to specifics.  What tools does a game like Eve offer for player created content that, wow doesn't.  And don't say housing because that is a given and I allready admit that it is needed and WoW doesn't have it.  What besides housing though?

Venge

edit - don't bother mentioning skills either as I allready agree to that.  What I want is are there other things besides skills and housing?  What more does Eve do that you can't do in WoW?

 A territory warfare system, player based economy, where the best gear is crafted (slightly applies to WoW until endgame, then it's all raid gear), tools for exploration (wormholes and such), no limits on how many players can participate in a battle (restricting it is restricting freedom, one of the main things that seperate themepark and sandboxes), alter the environment (planetary interaction, POS).

 Sorry I didn't see your post when I typed this. 

Again WoW has territory warfare systems - players just choose not to do this. 

Player based economy - according to many wow has this,  Everything in the economy is because a player put it there, decides the price, and has to alter it due to competition.....  but crafted gear being the best - I'll give you that WoW doesn't have this at end-game

Tools for exploration - a wormhole is just fast travel?  or is that going to a completely new area never seen before.  If the former than it is not different than a mage port, if the lattter that is interesting.

No limits on player battles - Wow does not have this, your right.  Does a sandbox need this?   If there are no player battles does that make it not a sandbox?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  MMOExposed

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Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5889

6/02/11 6:30:24 PM#17
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

 try reading through the threads you create:

Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.

Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability. 

Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this.  End game may or may not be relevant.  A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers.  And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained.  re OP.

Contents = more Activities to do.

 

Again,,, its fits even your definition.

Sandbox with lots of Contents(activities to do) = Themepark

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 6:30:29 PM#18
Originally posted by Draron
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And if control territory is what sets them apart what apart all the so-called sandboxes that don't allow that - Istaria for one.

 You asked what was different from EVE and WoW (sans housing), not what had to be had to make it a sandbox. And my post covers more differences.

But in general, Bladestorm sums it up nicely.

 We are using Eve and Wow as the examples of what makes a sandbox and what makes a themepark which has direct connotations on how we label the other sandboxes and themeparks.

Yep Bladestrom has my vote.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4684

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/02/11 6:32:09 PM#19
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

 try reading through the threads you create:

Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.

Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability. 

Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this.  End game may or may not be relevant.  A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers.  And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained.  re OP.

Contents = more Activities to do.

 

Again,,, its fits even your definition.

Sandbox with lots of Contents(activities to do) = Themepark

 Sorry exposed.  Going to have to disagree and go with Bladestrom.  You can have all the content from all the games in existance rolled into one game but if that game has the tools needed to cultivate adn maintain a stable community and economy I'll call it a sandbox.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  MMOExposed

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Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5889

6/02/11 6:36:22 PM#20
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.

 

It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.

Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.

 try reading through the threads you create:

Sandbox core is about cultivating and maintaining a stable community and economy.

Thempark core is about offering activities and accessability. 

Both over varying layers of functionality/gameplay on top of this.  End game may or may not be relevant.  A lot of confusion comes from the comparison of the layers.  And based on this adding extra stuff to either type of game does not change its format as long as the core is maintained.  re OP.

Contents = more Activities to do.

 

Again,,, its fits even your definition.

Sandbox with lots of Contents(activities to do) = Themepark

 Sorry exposed.  Going to have to disagree and go with Bladestrom.  You can have all the content from all the games in existance rolled into one game but if that game has the tools needed to cultivate adn maintain a stable community and economy I'll call it a sandbox.

in that case, there are no themeparks.. which MMO doesnt have a community/economy? and dont say Guild Wars, because thats not a MMO

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