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Originally posted by Teala
Do I need to ask you again?

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Nope, because your question is irrelevant to the matter.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Teala
Do I need to ask you again?

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Nope, because your question is irrelevant to the matter.

No it is not.  I explained why I ask.  Why are you affraid to answer.   Truthfully.  Are you a miner?

Originally posted by mklinic

I don't understand. People have put forth their thoughts and have dissected the Captcha idea. What sort of conversation were you looking for? Wouldn't you rather realize the short comings of the Captcha approach rather then spend more time advocating a solution that would likely not accomplish your stated goal? Really, keep beating the drum and keep the issue visible, but complaining about legitimate feedback is counterproductive. 

My opinion on the matter, which is of course super important, lines up with cosy's post. Better to let a Bot go then to implement a mechanic that punishes a legit player. I relate to DRM in that respect I suppose. The Bot, much like the 'pirate' with DRM, will find a way around the mechanic while the legit customer is impacted. Sure, you can dismiss it as a negligible impact, but when the Bot experiences none of that impact, what have you gained? You've wasted dev resources on deiminishing the game experience for the very players your trying to support.

So, if you are truly looking for a fix, stop whinning about people not liking your captcha idea, not being a miner, or somehow casting accusations and hyperbole around and start trying to think a little more creatively about a non-intrusive solution that would accurately target bots while not inconveniencing the legitimate player/afk miner. 

 Very well stated!  I was an EVE miner and I full agree with you.  The captcha idea is a tedious non-solution.  A real solution is needed.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by rtbbvr
As many have pointed out, botters are having a huge effect on the economy.

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Source? Data? ....anything?

The SAME questions can be asked of those saying that botters impact on the game in other ways.

So if our conclusions must be reliant on available data, the only available data is the distinct lack of data and thus we can't actually discuss the issue anyway because no one has any accurate data to go on.

Is this what you were hoping to accomplish?

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

So if our conclusions must be reliant on available data, the only available data is the distinct lack of data and thus we can't actually discuss the issue anyway because no one has any accurate data to go on.
Is this what you were hoping to accomplish?

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Correct.

The accuracy is a matter to discuss as is any evidence but you MUST have some evidence to develop a theory.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Teala

I asked a simple question and if you do not mind I would like an answer.  If that is OK with you?

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There is no point asking irrelevant questions thus I asked what your point is. Your answer is silence so I conclude you were not trying to make any point thus my reply would be irrelevant which means there is no need for me to reply.

Also it is funny that you ask me to answer simple question when you are not able to answer yourself, a question that is indeed relevant to topic discussed, contrary to yours.

I'll ask you once again, do you mine?  I ask, because why are you so uppity about me wishing for CCP to look into finding an active solution to the issue of mining.   Only a botter or someone that knows botters, maybe people in your corp, would argue the way you are.   If you are a miner, I would think you would be against "cheaters" who use 3rd party apps to mine 23/7.   If you are not a miner than why are you so concerned about an issue that has little to no bearing on your game play.  This has a bearing on my game play and enjoyment of the game.   That is why I am concerned about it.  Do I need to ask you again?

You're casting aspersions to support your arguement, whilst accusing the "other side" of doing exactly the same thing. And from your previous post you get really pissy when people point this out ;D

You may know a handful of players that mine who want the mining "issue" solved, but I bet I can name an equal portion of players I know that don't see a problem at all, and accept things as they stand. You'll defy that EVEN THOUGH you can't defy it.

And yes, I do mine. I have mined without bots and I have mined with bots. I am quite informed in this particular area and can safely say that nothing proposed in this thread so far - by you or anyone else - is going to solve the problem and make it go away. And the presumption that you CAN solve the problem and make it go away is based on your perspective as a player... which is a fundamentally flawed perspective to rely on.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

So if our conclusions must be reliant on available data, the only available data is the distinct lack of data and thus we can't actually discuss the issue anyway because no one has any accurate data to go on.
Is this what you were hoping to accomplish?

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Correct.

The accuracy is a matter to discuss as is any evidence but you MUST have some evidence to develop a theory.

Ah but you are in turn suggesting that observed evdence by a player is not accurate data and shouldn't be factored into the equation, when the truth is that CCP - and other developers - rely on this data when combating bots. So this very discussion - largely based on the observations of an individual - is, in fact, valid data.

Eventually consensus will form, we'll reach a conclusion, the conclusion will be affected, and we will be one step closer to living under The Unity. The Unity must have consensus.

I don't actually believe any of this, but let us turn this in to a philosophical topic before our eyes pop out from the exhaustion that shall manifest of the never ending hate swarm.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by Teala

If you read my first post you would see that a captcha would never appear if you are actively engaged in combat.  Nice try though.

capcha wouldnt work.. too many people would lose their ships while travelling afk - which is legitimate.. if dumb in some areas.. or if your carrying something valuable..  .. there is no real need to do much about botters as there are any number of players who will tip can's of the afk macro guys .. and then theres hulkageddon.. high sec isnt a safe place even for non-botters when those guys are about..  so while their are probably a few botters around.. truth is.. its not really much of an issue because there really arent that many.. and ..i seriously doubt that removing them entirely would disrupt the economy in any way..  but chasing down a few would take up resources best used in other areas.

The captcha I said would only appear while actively mining, not while doing any other task.   So you wouldn't hacve to worry about captcha popping up at un-expected times.  

So what happens when two Hulks put a light combat drone on each other (same corp, or can flag each other first) and then begin mining?

I'm mining, so I should get the captcha.  I'm also engaged in combat, so I shouldn't; or will the captcha show up when my mining lasers cycle despite my being in combat?

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

Ah but you are in turn suggesting that observed evdence by a player is not accurate data and shouldn't be factored into the equation, when the truth is that CCP - and other developers - rely on this data when combating bots. So this very discussion - largely based on the observations of an individual - is, in fact, valid data.

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It would be valid only in case there was an argument that there are ANY bots but that is not how the argument stands.

My point stands.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

Ah but you are in turn suggesting that observed evdence by a player is not accurate data and shouldn't be factored into the equation, when the truth is that CCP - and other developers - rely on this data when combating bots. So this very discussion - largely based on the observations of an individual - is, in fact, valid data.

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It would be valid only in case there was an argument that there are ANY bots but that is not how the argument stands.

My point stands.

You got lost in your own hole. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was highlighting the mundanity of this thread. If you'd bothered to read my post further along, you would have realised this and thus found no reason to respond.

But I guess on the Internetz being right is the only thing that matters.

Dear Teala.

Your crusade against mining-bots and your drive to make mining in EvE more engaging is ongoing for quite a while and I respect your oppinion about it, that this is a question CCP needs to do something about.

However, you need to take into account, that the current economics of EvE is very pleasant for most players. Most people playing EvE are actually glad, that there's alot of minerals getting injected into the market, be it by bots the boring type of mining that can be done AFK or be it by refining drone-alloys and loot. The drone-alloys are "harvested" by bots aswell, so your captcha-solution is not going anywhere but only punishes the "real" miners, but I'll go into detail there later.
The economy currently, flooded with minerals allows people to replace their ships rather easily, as everything is dirtcheap compared to what we've seen pre-droneregions. You can't expect CCP to do something, that would drastically increase prices, as this would drive alot of players away. The possibility to replace a battleship in two or three hours mission-running (and that's aswell semi-AFK-task) is the reason, why there's this much players today.

So now to your captcha-idea.

The way you want to implement it doesn't take every circumstance into consideration that could lead to your ship being blown up.
You say, that the captcha randomly pops up, if you're in a mining-ship and only if you're not targeted by either NPCs or other players. But what about another player engaging you, just as you're trying to solve the captcha? Captcha pops up, hostile drops out of warp some 15km aroud you and you're dead. That won't be accepted by any player I can tell you.
And like I said up there allready, your captcha-idea wouldn't harm the bots farming drones 24/7, which is the main-reason, why mining these days isn't that appealing anymore. The only thing that has to be done via mining is ice-mining, while the rest of the minerals can aswell be gained by shooting NPCs.

Yes, bots are usually bad and ruin a game, but in EvE the bots aren't actually that bad, as bots can't do the things that are really driving the game: PvP.

I have a mining/crafting-character myself with some 40 Mil SP (no single combat-skill!) and I actually love to have it mining AFK on a second screen, while I do other stuff, like watching a film, reading the net or eating dinner. It's not a whole lot of ISK, but some 6 Mil ISK per hour isn't that bad, if you can run the character 12 hours a day. It pays the GTCs for all my three accounts, with little interaction required. I only need to dock and unload my cargo every 15 minutes and I don't care, if I don't manage to be there for half an hour wasting a few cycles.

Do yourself a favour and don't enrage over this issue anymore, as the bigger part of EvE is quiet happy with the current situation, and CCP won't change anything for the vocal minority anyways. They never listen to the vocal minorities if you haven't realised this allready.

Cheers o7

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Teala

I asked a simple question and if you do not mind I would like an answer.  If that is OK with you?

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There is no point asking irrelevant questions thus I asked what your point is. Your answer is silence so I conclude you were not trying to make any point thus my reply would be irrelevant which means there is no need for me to reply.

Also it is funny that you ask me to answer simple question when you are not able to answer yourself, a question that is indeed relevant to topic discussed, contrary to yours.

I'll ask you once again, do you mine?  I ask, because why are you so uppity about me wishing for CCP to look into finding an active solution to the issue of mining.   Only a botter or someone that knows botters, maybe people in your corp, would argue the way you are.   If you are a miner, I would think you would be against "cheaters" who use 3rd party apps to mine 23/7.   If you are not a miner than why are you so concerned about an issue that has little to no bearing on your game play.  This has a bearing on my game play and enjoyment of the game.   That is why I am concerned about it.  Do I need to ask you again?

First, it is unfair and even insulting for you to accuse someone of being a botter just because they disagree with your proposed solution to the problem.  They feel it is technically unworkable and have stated their reasons why, which you of course can disagree with, but no reason to defame people over their views.

I'm sure most of us are against botters, but they do have a point, right now botters are firmly ingrained into the EVE economy, if CCP were to magically remove them tomorrow, mineral prices would shoot through the roof, ship prices would rapidly rise, which would likely negatively impact players willingness to engage in combat unless they were sure to win.

Net effect, less PVP, which is something CCP will be loath to support.   You claim you need relief to do better mining.  I'm assuming your mining is in highsec, solution is simple, (from CCP's eyes) move out to 0.0 (where they really want you to be, regardless of your preferences) and it will no longer be an issue.

There are zero botters anywhere near my alliances zones, we don't allow it from our members and non-members, well, they're killed, period.

CCP will never shed a lot of tears for Empire miners and their losses when the solution is right in front of you.

Don't want to take the risk, well, then you'll have to compete with the bots (you can get to the roids as quickly as them btw) and do the best you can.

EVE is about Risk vs Reward, you have to be willing to take some if you wish to win big.

CCP and EVE really doesn't care what you (or anyone else for that matter) thinks, its their game, they expect you to play it their way.

Sure, it costs them customers of course, but that's what I like about them, they stick to their visions better than almost any other developer out there. Even when it pisses you and me off.

edit: BTW, if you'd like to be part of a bunch of "mature" gamers (30+) who really know how to mine a belt in 0.0 let me know, my corp would be glad to take in another miner who would like to learn how to survive in 0.0. Oh yes, and btw, I don't mine, never have, never will, but this crew I'm flying with seems to be pretty good at it.  (of course, you might be too young)

Originally posted by dotdotdash

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

So if our conclusions must be reliant on available data, the only available data is the distinct lack of data and thus we can't actually discuss the issue anyway because no one has any accurate data to go on.
Is this what you were hoping to accomplish?

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Correct.

The accuracy is a matter to discuss as is any evidence but you MUST have some evidence to develop a theory.

Ah but you are in turn suggesting that observed evdence by a player is not accurate data and shouldn't be factored into the equation, when the truth is that CCP - and other developers - rely on this data when combating bots. So this very discussion - largely based on the observations of an individual - is, in fact, valid data.

Eventually consensus will form, we'll reach a conclusion, the conclusion will be affected, and we will be one step closer to living under The Unity. The Unity must have consensus.

I don't actually believe any of this, but let us turn this in to a philosophical topic before our eyes pop out from the exhaustion that shall manifest of the never ending hate swarm.

 Why should I believe someone's claimed observation is a fact?

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

You got lost in your own hole. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was highlighting the mundanity of this thread. If you'd bothered to read my post further along, you would have realised this and thus found no reason to respond.
But I guess on the Internetz being right is the only thing that matters.

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I might misunderstood something but observation of an individual is not valid evidence.

Just because I see 1 bot does not mean there are 26.701 of them.

Did I misunderstood something there?

You both missed this:

Eventually consensus will form, we'll reach a conclusion, the conclusion will be affected, and we will be one step closer to living under The Unity. The Unity must have consensus.

I don't actually believe any of this, but let us turn this in to a philosophical topic before our eyes pop out from the exhaustion that shall manifest of the never ending hate swarm.

Clear mockery. Next time I'll be sure to label it as such.

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Originally posted by dotdotdash
You both missed this:
Eventually consensus will form, we'll reach a conclusion, the conclusion will be affected, and we will be one step closer to living under The Unity. The Unity must have consensus.
I don't actually believe any of this, but let us turn this in to a philosophical topic before our eyes pop out from the exhaustion that shall manifest of the never ending hate swarm.
Clear mockery. Next time I'll be sure to label it as such.

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I didn't miss it, I skipped it because I was too focused and enjoying your clear, explicit and precise formulations and mocking irony wasn't detected and slipped.

In other words: Yes, I can be dense :)

I actually don't think bots are against the spirit of EVE, to be honest.  Note that CCP also not only allows but endorses and profits from:

1) Players buying ISK

2) Buying accounts/characters from other players

3) Having multiple accounts and using them simultaneously

The above would be considered banable offenses in some MMOs.

I personally don't think CCP minds bots in EVE, especially if they are additional accounts bought (or funded via Plex which is the same in the end) by veterans who drive revenue by having multiple accounts.

If you are looking for "fair" in your MMO I don't think EVE is for you...

A number of posts have turned to the economic benefit of having the botters and, I'll be honest, I had never considered that side of things so it got me thinking....

It seems CCP can access a lot of data regarding what's going on in their game. I wonder if they can determine how much time a player spends mining. From there, a report could be generated showing something like "Players Who Mine > 95% of available uptime".

So CCP could take such a report and review a sampling of players on the list. For the sake of argument, lets say 500 players showed up on the list. They could review 10% of that list and determine a very loose idea of their false-positives. The reports can then be refined based on where it becomes manageable, based on resources required to review the account in question, and has the least false positives (though I suppose this would default to "= 100% of uptime"). Maybe over time, players who are 'false-positive' on the list become white-listed from future reports (or perhaps the next 1, 2, <whatever> months they are cleared) to reduce the admin effort.

This all assumes such data is readily available in the server logs, but the end result is a completely unobtrusive process for the legitimate customer. Another way I see this data being used is by CCPs economist to determine the break even point between bot control and ingame inflation. Perhaps players would take over for the bots and reduce inflation naturally, but a controlled approach to decreasing the Bot population is likely going to be the least disruptive solution for everyone.

Maybe that came across as a bit of a ramble, but I hope it made some sense :)

the solution to bot is simple and is so simple that is hard to implement:

1) dont have repetitive game play

2) the gameplay must be random no gameplay feature should be predictable

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by dotdotdash

So if our conclusions must be reliant on available data, the only available data is the distinct lack of data and thus we can't actually discuss the issue anyway because no one has any accurate data to go on.
Is this what you were hoping to accomplish?

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Correct.

The accuracy is a matter to discuss as is any evidence but you MUST have some evidence to develop a theory.

You can apply deductive reasoning.

1. Minerals affect the economy to a great degree. All mods/ships require it.

2. Botters introduce alot of minerals to the economy.

3. Therefore botters affect the economy.

Now how much they affect the economy depends on how much mineral they introduce compares to minerals from other sources. Seeing as they can mine 24/7 I would say that is quite alot.