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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » does PvP have to equal Everything can beat everything?

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55 posts found
  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/01/11 8:26:37 AM#1

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

6/01/11 9:06:28 AM#2
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

  A.Serenity

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/11
Posts: 8

6/01/11 9:17:19 AM#3
Originally posted by JB47394
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

If the game allows only one combat role per character, then the developer would be wise to allow any character to beat any other.  If the game allows characters to change combat role with a change of gear, then the game can easily say that one role easily defeats another in direct combat.

World of Warcraft is class-based and allows essentially one combat role per character - its class.  EVE Online is gear-based and allows change of combat role by change of ship.

That is true about World of Warcraft, however WoW isn't 'that' limiting.  Within a class you can perform different roles.  Like a Warrior can be a Tank or a Damage Dealer, or the Priest a Healer or a Damage Dealer (Shadow).  Or let's say for the Druid it can perform all 3 roles, Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer.  Though agreed you're limited to the class, but there is a lot you can do with that particular class. :)

  Slapshot1188

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4190

6/01/11 9:21:58 AM#4

The quest for PvP "balance" has ruined the vast majority of PvP games.  PvP has turned into an E-Sport.. with scoreboards and timers.  I don't want to play CTF or deathmatch or king of the hill.. if I did I'd do it in a FPS.   I just want any PvP to be a natural part of the world in which I am playing.  With real repercushions.

 

Balance between classes is not only something that I don't feel has to exist... but it shouldn't even be a development goal.  I don't care if Johnny Fireball can kick my ass one on one.  That just means I should bring a friend.  It adds variety to the game and an element of the unknown instead of everything being cookie-cutter.

 

Edit to add: If we want balance in a game we shuld just remove levels and skills.. and equipment.  Everyone is even...   doesn't sound like I game that I would personally want to play though.

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  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

6/01/11 9:25:38 AM#5

No. Fill out your role. In regards to EvE..you can fit a logistics ship with damage mods...so technically you could destroy  a dps ship..say one that was fitted only for travel. In DF..back when I played....everyone wore bone armor b/c it gave the best resist vs least intrusive magic fizzle.

In PnP games...I have seen several mage types destroy armor clad warriors with magic...so I guess your question is "can a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class in melee combat?? I would say no.

A. Serenity touched on the different roles that druids, etc can play so I think your question is a bit too broad. I personally have seen a corpmate OWN people in a scimitar in EvE...and up til that point...I think I had only ever seen one in an Alliance Tourney.

 

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  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1947

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

6/01/11 9:28:04 AM#6

planetside did it propperly, let's hope sony does not screw it for PS Next :)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Reizla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 3053

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

6/01/11 9:34:05 AM#7
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef

Should a cloth wearing healing class be afforded the same chance to beat a chain wearing DPS class?

Or should a developer flat out refuse to allow the everyone can beat everyone mentality?

in EVE you wont see a logistics ship roll up on a HAC and stand toe to toe with one. 

But in WoW.....

Short answer: NO

Seen it happen in Aion too where a healer (me)  kicked a tank, only because of the healing... Lame IMO. healer = support and certainly no PvP class.

Look at Lineage II (odly enough same developer as Aion). I think there they've graped the concept of healers & buffers as they should be - 100% support class. No main PvP but keep the actual PvPers alive.

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  A.Serenity

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/11
Posts: 8

6/01/11 9:59:00 AM#8
Originally posted by Slapshot1188

The quest for PvP "balance" has ruined the vast majority of PvP games.  PvP has turned into an E-Sport.. with scoreboards and timers.  I don't want to play CTF or deathmatch or king of the hill.. if I did I'd do it in a FPS.   I just want any PvP to be a natural part of the world in which I am playing.  With real repercushions.

 

Balance between classes is not only something that I don't feel has to exist... but it shouldn't even be a development goal.  I don't care if Johnny Fireball can kick my ass one on one.  That just means I should bring a friend.  It adds variety to the game and an element of the unknown instead of everything being cookie-cutter.

 

Edit to add: If we want balance in a game we shuld just remove levels and skills.. and equipment.  Everyone is even...   doesn't sound like I game that I would personally want to play though.

I really agree with you on this.  Personally I didn't think many players thought this way anymore.  So it is nice to know there are others still out there.

Seems PVP these days is slowly evolving into FPS styled, where there is no open world element and it is all controlled in an instanced enviroment be is 10 vs 10... 40 vs 40...  Would be nice if games went back to when it wasn't a tournament...

You need that element of fear of walking through the woods and a 'PK' could be lurking nearby...

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/01/11 10:12:33 AM#9

If a mele class closes in on a caster, then the mele should win, but if the caster can nuke down the mele before he gets in range then it makes sense the caster wins out. 

But with stuns, purges, damage absorb, insta cloak, and more items than an Ikea outlet.

Someone made a post somewhere on the forum (forget where i read it) that it seems a bit absurd that a non-magic class is allowed an ability that removes all magic. Despite having ZERO understanding of magic and how it works.

  JB47394

Novice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 412

6/01/11 10:30:44 AM#10
Originally posted by A.Serenity

That is true about World of Warcraft, however WoW isn't 'that' limiting.  Within a class you can perform different roles.  [...]  Though agreed you're limited to the class, but there is a lot you can do with that particular class. :)

Yup.  The point is that each class has to have the ability to compete in PvP solo.  In contrast, not every ship in EVE Online has to have the ability to compete in PvP solo.  This gives CCP the freedom to design ships that are utterly useless in solo combat, but are ideal for other activities.  That's the crux of the point.

I'm of the opinion that gear-based roles are infinitely superior to class-based roles.  That's true for both developers and players.  Everyone goes on about how restrictive the class trinity is in fantasy games.  To open things up, go with gear-based roles.  With that one change, player characters can temporarily adopt extremely niche roles in a group, allowing for all sorts of group dynamics.  All you have to do is change your gear (and have the requisite character skills).  That will give you the abilities of that gear and temporarily gimp your character otherwise.

Because EVE Online takes place in a science fiction setting, they can restrict gear changes by forcing players to change whole ships.  That's just like changing characters, which is why so many people find EVE Online disasteful.  "I don't want to be a spaceship."  While it alienates players, it makes mutually-exclusive gear changes very easy.  Wholesale gear changes in a fantasy setting are a bit more problematic.

For example there's the problem of a character wearing plate mail, shield, bow, magical rings, lock picks and sharpening stones.  There's nothing inherent in the fantasy setting that makes it obvious why a character cannot wear the gear for most every activity in the game.  Yet because the goal is to make roles mutually exclusive, something would have to be worked out.  The classic example is that metal interferes with magic, so characters pursuing a magical role would leave their metal at home.

  Cernan

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/06
Posts: 353

6/01/11 10:37:54 AM#11

Short answer:  Yes.

 

As another poster said, the question isn't always that simple.  The cloth wearing healer shouldn't be able to beat the chain wearing melee in melee combat.  The healer should also be forced to heal more than damage making the combat long and drawn out.  The melee should ideally just give up because of the length of combat.  Oh how I miss thee DAoC.

To use DAoC references, I believe they did a lot of things right in this regard.

Wardens - awesome support class.  They could cast "bubbles" to negate one source of damage every few seconds.  They also had some minor healing.  However, their own damage was extremely weak.  You could literally fight a warden for 3 to 5 minutes.  Do they run out of mana or do you eventually die a slow death to them.  Solution - bring a second person.  The bubble only negates one damage source.  Bring two and the warden goes down.

Bolt casters - The longest range magic in the game.  Most bolt casters had 2 bolts on long recast timers with some weak DDs.  The bolts could be blocked by shield wearers.  They were extremely damaging.  Most classes would die if hit by both.  However, if you could block the bolts or get into melee range then the caster was dead.

 

I also miss how DAoC had crowd control classes.  Everyone didn't have stuns, silences, fears, or mezzes.  You had classes that specialized in crowd control.  They weren't much good at anything else, but they were great at controlling entire groups of other people.  Now you have games like in Rift were melee plate wearers have AE fear.  You also have plate wearers with leaps and rogues with teleports to close the distance to casters.  The point is supposed to be that the caster is strong from far away.  You shouldn't be able to instantly close the distance.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not just blaming Rift.  I still play it.  Other games do this as well. 

 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/01/11 10:39:40 AM#12

In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

(Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

 
OP  6/01/11 11:02:12 AM#13
Originally posted by Axehilt

In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

(Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

TF2 doesn't have 20 sided dice either. 

its apples and oranges. You can make a game all day long that promotes zerging, has 20 different classes each with their own uniqe abilites, and instead of playing a game better suited to their desires, you have players that will bitch and try to force the devs to re-make the game in the player's image. 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/01/11 11:30:10 AM#14
Originally posted by Swollen_Beef
Originally posted by Axehilt

In a pure PVP game, skill beats everything.

MMORPGs aren't pure PVP experiences.

(Skill being the quality of your team's decisions combined with your ability to execute on those decisions.)

Chess, Football, and Team Fortress 2 would be ruined if they allowed zerging or progression to influence outcome.  Instead, matches are completely determined by each player/team's skill.

TF2 doesn't have 20 sided dice either. 

its apples and oranges. You can make a game all day long that promotes zerging, has 20 different classes each with their own uniqe abilites, and instead of playing a game better suited to their desires, you have players that will bitch and try to force the devs to re-make the game in the player's image. 

Technically TF2 does have random elements (critical hits) but they're actually sort of a negative for the game the way they're designed.

PVP design isn't quite apples and oranges.  Whether it's Chess, an FPS, or whatever, the underlying fundamental design of a good PVP game remains the same.  

The supporter of MMORPG PVP's best bet in discussions on PVP is to embrace what the PVP is: casual. It's a tough argument to beat, to point out that there's a lot of casual PVPers who want PVP to hinge upon very simple factors ("I brought more friends", "I grinded longer".)

If you also point out that skilled PVP is only won by the skilled (and most people aren't, so most people don't experience victory) then that further solidifies the argument.  And you begin to see why a significant number of these casual PVP experiences exist.

It may be a waste of time for players to want devs to re-make the game, but those underlying complaints are valid.  And if a new dev provides a superior solution to those complaints, those players will shift over to the new game.  (Which is why it's an interesting topic to discuss, despite casual PVP being a fundamental shortcoming of MMORPGs.)  Granted, the point of MMORPG PVP is to intentionally be casual.  So who's to say how many casual PVPers you lose by retaining the PVP purists.

  Thorqemada

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1221

6/01/11 11:53:33 AM#15

FUCK the Balance!

It destroys any game, any fun, any diversity bcs most time people speak of balance they either mean total equality of every class/skill or total domination for the class/skill they use.

Dont Balance games any longer, give any class/skill a use that is logical in context to the gameworld and let the player take their choice.

If the player wants to be a librarian the player will simply not be able to compete in the gladiatorgames but may have knowledge how to translate dragon runes leading to a hidden treasure.

But since players have been reared to become mass murderer and evrything else is seen as inferior gameplay and mind challenging gameplay is eleminated more and more form any game i only can hope some developers dares to ignore the crybabies and produce a game that is not only about dps...

A really good game does not care for equality - its goal is to achive diversity!

And as long Balance means to equal anything, to plane all differences in dps and
survivability i say again: FUCK IT!
(related to rpg be it mmo or not)

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  k11keeper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/04
Posts: 1037

"" "" "" ""

6/02/11 8:57:13 PM#16

When I think of good PvP two games come to mind, DAoC and L2. What do both of these games have in common? They had massive PvP battles where there was an emphasis on filling a role more then 1v1. For a game to have good PvP I think this is a necessity. If everyone is so evenly matched where are the tactics? It just becomes mindless zerging which has been beat to death in this topic.

When you have certain classes that are better suited to take down other classes, and people playing support roles the PvP becomes more like a team sport to me, and more importantly adds to that Massively part of MMORPG.

  osc8r

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/06
Posts: 701

6/02/11 9:14:52 PM#17

They just need to make player skill play a much larger part in MMO's - as it used to. No more autohoming projectiles or spells. No more gear or level's that provide a MASSIVE advantage of others. Make it so gear and level's provide worthwhile benefits, but nothing drastic.

AC1 had it right. I remember re-rolling on AC1 (had a level 50) and was only level 5, and a level 18 attacked me. After a 2 minute+ fight I won... just. Although he had a clar advantage over me, I managed to make up for the difference by playing smart, and using personal 'skill'. And this was a common theme, a group of skilled tight nit players could take on a group of higher level and better geared players and win.

In MMO's these days that level 5 probably wouldn't even be able to kill a level 18 character even if he was afk, it would just show 'resist resist, dodge'.

Less purples, more player skill!

  Eerazer

Novice Member

Joined: 2/05/10
Posts: 145

Wat?

6/02/11 9:22:50 PM#18

all i know is vanilla wow was the most fun i ever had in pvp with the paper scissors stone mechanic the classes had back then. 

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3978

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

6/02/11 10:32:57 PM#19

Well while I do agree with the majority that ballancing a PvP game so everyone has an equal chance in PvP is not the best choice you guys are way off about EVE. In EVE if I spend months training up my skills to be an uber miner I can't just one day decide I want to PvP jump in a battleship and go own people. Without the properly trained skills which would take just as much time to train as the months I speant becoming a top miner I'd be just as effective if I took my mining barge into PvP. No ship is going to make you magically uber if you haven't trained the proper skill set adaquately.

 

PvP in EVE is more about how you've trained your skills to utilize your ship and it's fittings than the ship itself.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  dreamer05

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 546

6/02/11 10:44:56 PM#20

I do very strongly believe DAoC had it best when it came to pvp.  Such a variety in classes and specialities made it a wonderful pvp game.  I was a Frostalf Mend/Pac healer which meant I was the main healer but also had the best CC for Midgard.  It was a really fun mix. 

 

I do believe however that Rift has done many things right.  It is not a pvp game and it is certainly not mind bogglingly amazing pvp but the mix of skills between the classes and souls really makes pvp fun.

 

I really wish they would do a remake of DAoC.  I would never look at another game.

"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

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