Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Siris23

I really don't get this mentality.

No one who cares about raid difficulty is going to be running the tier 11 normal-mode raids when 4.2 hits so why do they care if old normal-modes get nerfed?

Because it diminishes the accomplishment.

Kind of like how these days every kid is given a trophy, even when they lose. Kind of diminishes the point of winning a trophy when people who didn't do as well or try as hard get the same.

It's bad enough that the gear is going to be handed out like candy on halloween from facerolling heroics.

What's the point of spending hours each week trying to clear content and gear up to be able to clear the current top end content, when in a few months you'll be able to stroll in there and faceroll through everything? The answer is exactly why people are starting to get fed up with WoW.

 IMO, with the accomplishment system for endgame content, they should have 4 levels of the accomplishment.  The gold medal  for the original release (assumed hardest mode) of a raid, silver medal after the first nerfing, bronze for the second nerfing and finally a plain old one for when it's nerfed due to a new tier release.  It gives the epeeners something to showoff their deeds back when it was tough and still allows the regular people something.

 Um, the hardest mode isn't being nerfed. Only normal mode (easy mode) is getting the nerf.

Originally posted by Aadien

WoW has always done this, he got butt hurt and left. I give him 3 months or less and he will be back.

I find it funny that some people are so cock sure they can predict someone ELSE's actions. People leave WoW permanently all the time. You act as though no one has ever PERMANENTLY left the game. I can outright NAME people who have, and I'm sure most people on these boards can as well. If he comes back, well then "woohoo." If he doesn't return.....same "woohoo" for that. What fucking difference does it really make?  But to act like you KNOW what someone else is going to do is just nonsense.

Originally posted by ichimarunico

Originally posted by mm0wiggins

Originally posted by Siris23

 

 Once again who cares, the hardcore/skilled players will be working on T12 progression and probably won't give T11 a second thought, and the achieve junkies should have their heroic achieves to be proud of (heroic modes are not being nerfed).

What's so skillful about following scripted directions in a raid you've run 20 times before already?

-rolleyes- What's so skillful about pointing a gun and pulling a trigger? What's so skillful about performing a song you've performed 20 times before? What's so skillful about... so on and so forth. High end PvE takes skill in games where it's challenging. I'm sorry. It's true.

Shenanigans.

High end PvE (raiding) only takes skill while you're learning the dance moves and governs how fast you master them.  There's a reason why raids end up on "farm mode".  The challenge is in climbing the mountain, especially blind when you do it for the first time, not in sitting on your fat ass once you reach the summit.  Once you learn the dance though, the only trick is getting enough people facing the same direction at the same time.  It's an issue of logistics, not talent.

Originally posted by Siris23

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Siris23

I really don't get this mentality.

No one who cares about raid difficulty is going to be running the tier 11 normal-mode raids when 4.2 hits so why do they care if old normal-modes get nerfed?

Because it diminishes the accomplishment.

Kind of like how these days every kid is given a trophy, even when they lose. Kind of diminishes the point of winning a trophy when people who didn't do as well or try as hard get the same.

It's bad enough that the gear is going to be handed out like candy on halloween from facerolling heroics.

What's the point of spending hours each week trying to clear content and gear up to be able to clear the current top end content, when in a few months you'll be able to stroll in there and faceroll through everything? The answer is exactly why people are starting to get fed up with WoW.

 IMO, with the accomplishment system for endgame content, they should have 4 levels of the accomplishment.  The gold medal  for the original release (assumed hardest mode) of a raid, silver medal after the first nerfing, bronze for the second nerfing and finally a plain old one for when it's nerfed due to a new tier release.  It gives the epeeners something to showoff their deeds back when it was tough and still allows the regular people something.

 Um, the hardest mode isn't being nerfed. Only normal mode (easy mode) is getting the nerf.

Not all raiders get to do all of the hardmode content?

Seems like the middle class always gets screwed, whether it's the economic scale or on the casual/hardcore scale lol.

Originally posted by Aadien

WoW has always done this, he got butt hurt and left. I give him 3 months or less and he will be back.

Three words to confirm this, Pre nerf Muru. Shaman stacking, drums, glaives, you needed everything. We and 97% of the rest of the guilds did not get him until the nerfs. Blizzard was better ablout slowly nerfing content instead of this massive nerf across the board incoming thou. 

Originally posted by Swanea

Originally posted by mm0wiggins

Originally posted by Siris23

 

 Once again who cares, the hardcore/skilled players will be working on T12 progression and probably won't give T11 a second thought, and the achieve junkies should have their heroic achieves to be proud of (heroic modes are not being nerfed).

What's so skillful about following scripted directions in a raid you've run 20 times before already?

So there are games such as Eve or MO or something where the NPCs in PvE require skill to kill?  Or do you stand there and kill them with no needs to do anything else?

LMAO!    ok buddy...

Go into EVE and run some Incursion content....   or go into a Wormhole and clear out a Sleeper site....  or even, go to a plain old x/10 rated complex (3 or above) and see how far some spell rotation and dance move gets you....  

The point I was touching on with my remark about the lack of skill it takes to Raid in WoW is simply about the change to the raid content that this OP is actually about.     WoW has done this since BC came out, and people complain everytime, but they keep their subs up.    The complaints go unnoticed as long as the subs keep rollin' in. 

All i'm saying is... Blizzard constantly nerfs and screws with everything in WoW to try and keep up with their casual crowd's desire to have an easy, fun, child-safe game, and this is nothing new.    So, if you, or anyone who still plays that game thinks there's something wrong with that, cancel your account.   That's the only way to show them that they're doing something wrong.  Otherwise, they'll keep on thinking they're doing it right.    

(Doing it right doesn't mean "making more money than other game companies" either, so don't start with the financial talk.   Doing it right is creating a name for yourself as the Best in the eyes of the community, not your investors.)

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Marcus-

Originally posted by Ceridith

You're interpreting the disdain backwards. It's not necessarily about resentment or ego of those after. Rather, at least for me, it's more a matter of "why should I spend several hours farming gear in a lower end of a raid so I can spend hours trying to down the high end of the raid, when in a few months it will be nerfed down so it can be defeated by a group taking a leisurely stroll?"

To put it another way. Why should I bother spending countless hours doing something that will be doable with far less effort in a few months?

It's along the lines of climbing Everest a few months before an escalator to the top is installed. Sure you could still do it to say you did, but most people would much rather just not bother and wait for the escalator. Which is the point, why bother with 'end-game' content when today's current 'end-game' becomes tommorow's walk in the park?

 Because its fun?

 

I mean thats why people raid, right? At least thats what they used to say.

It used to be. When your raid progression carried over to the next tier and didn't feel like a waste of time, it was more enjoyable knowing that you were actually progressing through content. These days a character with two weeks at max level can jump into the beginning of the top raid tier thanks to turning the last tier into welfare epics.

Think of it this way. Most games come with a difficulty setting for their computer opponents: Easy through Hardcore, right? You buy a game and you're not good enough to play at the Hardcore level, so you set it on Easy. You get the same rewards. This is no different.

And come on, dude. You don't have to socialize with these people. You don't need to associate with them or participate with them in any way. You have your own guild that does your own thing. All that should matter to you is your accomplishment with them as a team. Why do you care what people you'll likely never talk to have access to? Why do you think your accomplishments are cheapened just because they have the same gear?

Your'e playing a game. Stop being so concerned with what pisses you off and start figuring out what makes it fun. If it's not fun, stop playing. Either way... stop whining that "scrubs" stole your loot.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Siris23

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Siris23

I really don't get this mentality.

No one who cares about raid difficulty is going to be running the tier 11 normal-mode raids when 4.2 hits so why do they care if old normal-modes get nerfed?

Because it diminishes the accomplishment.

Kind of like how these days every kid is given a trophy, even when they lose. Kind of diminishes the point of winning a trophy when people who didn't do as well or try as hard get the same.

It's bad enough that the gear is going to be handed out like candy on halloween from facerolling heroics.

What's the point of spending hours each week trying to clear content and gear up to be able to clear the current top end content, when in a few months you'll be able to stroll in there and faceroll through everything? The answer is exactly why people are starting to get fed up with WoW.

 IMO, with the accomplishment system for endgame content, they should have 4 levels of the accomplishment.  The gold medal  for the original release (assumed hardest mode) of a raid, silver medal after the first nerfing, bronze for the second nerfing and finally a plain old one for when it's nerfed due to a new tier release.  It gives the epeeners something to showoff their deeds back when it was tough and still allows the regular people something.

 Um, the hardest mode isn't being nerfed. Only normal mode (easy mode) is getting the nerf.

Not all raiders get to do all of the hardmode content?

Seems like the middle class always gets screwed, whether it's the economic scale or on the casual/hardcore scale lol.

Hence why T11 is being made easier.  

Raiders will move onto T12, which is being added at the same time.  Something that was omitted from the OP.  Others can gear for hardmode T11 and/or T12. 

Top tier end game isn't being made easier.  Its moving to new content.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by Siris23

I really don't get this mentality.

No one who cares about raid difficulty is going to be running the tier 11 normal-mode raids when 4.2 hits so why do they care if old normal-modes get nerfed?

Because it diminishes the accomplishment.

Kind of like how these days every kid is given a trophy, even when they lose. Kind of diminishes the point of winning a trophy when people who didn't do as well or try as hard get the same.

It's bad enough that the gear is going to be handed out like candy on halloween from facerolling heroics.

What's the point of spending hours each week trying to clear content and gear up to be able to clear the current top end content, when in a few months you'll be able to stroll in there and faceroll through everything? The answer is exactly why people are starting to get fed up with WoW.

 IMO, with the accomplishment system for endgame content, they should have 4 levels of the accomplishment.  The gold medal  for the original release (assumed hardest mode) of a raid, silver medal after the first nerfing, bronze for the second nerfing and finally a plain old one for when it's nerfed due to a new tier release.  It gives the epeeners something to showoff their deeds back when it was tough and still allows the regular people something.

One of the biggest mistakes  blizzard made with achievments was to remove 10/25 man seperate achievments, I like your ideas about the multi levels, but the bottom line is blizzard is targetting casual players, casual doesnt want to see an achievment that they cannot achieve etc (and to that end it is no mistake i guess)

I'm starting to feel sorry for Blizzard even though I'm not anywhere near being a Blizzard fanboy. At this stage, it doesn't matter what they do. There's going to be some group of players jumping at their throat screaming bloody murder and predicting the end of WoW. I guess that's what happens when you let the pendulum swing all over the place.

I am, however, not surprised with what I'm seeing in 4.2 as such. It strikes me as an attempt to win back some of the 600K that left. With the raid nerfs in place, easier access to better gear and more solo content, casual players should have a bit more to do, no? And let's be honest here, there are more casual that handcore players. If they win back two casual players for every hardcore player who leaves in anger because his precious gear and achivements are now much easier to get, then they still end up with more profit than before. But those are big ifs I must admit. Even with those changes in place, Cata is nowhere near the casual heaven that WotLK was and people don't like constantly having your gameplay change on you. It could backfire instead. Either way, I find it interesting to watch Blizzard trying to wiggle their way out of this. Now, if only they sold popcorn...