Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Robsolf

Keeping up with the game news?  Yes.  Keeping up with the rumour mill?  no.

Louse spouted so much nonsense, I've already forgotten most of it, and look forward to forgetting the rest.

When BW said the game was on an 80 million budget, I'd accepted that it was going to cost around that, and likely a little more which is generally the way things go with big projects.  So when people shout numbers like 300k and don't provide evidence to support the number, I don't bother asking them where they got it, I just /ignore or chalk it up to the usual interweb exaggeration machine we all know and love.  It's clearly stupid number, and despite that I bet we'd have seen it, Louse or no Louse.

So, if you're implying that I don't keep up with the game because I haven't memorized blog W, or Post # X from thread Y in forum Z and am thus ignorant, fine.  But the truth is, I've just never gone to the trouble of memorizing the origins of information that is clearly false.

Few people believed the number when it was first mentioned. But we do know that it is over 80M$. It wasn't "EALouse" that first said 300M however, the rumor was up here weeks before his leak and he just quoted it like everyone else. I am not sure where the rumor is from but check old threads and you might find out.

Fact: EA have stated TOR is their most expensive game ever. That would put it at 110 M$+. 

I can imagine something around 150M$ but it is still just a guess. 300M is hardly possible unless they hire in too expensive Hollywood stars to do all the voice acting. It will still probably be the most expensive MMO ever at launch but that does not mean it will be 4 times as expensive as any other MMO.

As for the name of the thread: Really? I can confirm that inhaling water can cause drowning as well. Talk about stating the obvious.

TOR started in dec 2005 and most analysts agree on the budget is around $100 millions. Now for comparison TabulaRasa development lasted 6 years with a budget of $105 millions. Still... not the same studio, far from it.

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Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Nope, they aren't. Minecraft is not an MMORPG and Second Life is a virtual world simulation, but also not an MMORPG.

---

MMORPG.com counts SL as an MMORPG(so do I).

---

This is way too vague. Please elaborate what sandbox elements you're talking about that add the ability to change the world and affect other players for better or worse in a way that isn't possible or happening in themepark MMO's.

---

First meaningful pvp, price wars, crafting with quality, housebuilding, shipbuilding, etc.. Secondly I didn't say that weren't in Themepark MMOs I said that they wouldn't be in a full themepark, aka one without any sandbox elements.

---

Also, I have to wonder how many MMO's that are titled 'sandbox' will fulfill those criteria you're referring to, outside of UO, SWG and EVE maybe.

---

I am not bioware or some of these type fanboys that think that one game is either one or the other. To me all MMOs have bits of themepark and bits of sandbox. A game is defined where they lay between the two extremes.

Originally posted by Drakxii

Not sure how this got bought up but... so? Of course your going to craft, fight and quest to level but the thing is that all you do in a full themepark. Sanboxes elements add the ability to change the world and affect other players for better or worse.

Not sure if this is what you mean or to what extent but this might be interesting to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03V7s6usPR4

From 4:25 on to about 5:02.

Not sure what to make of that or if anyone else will see it. But you are changing the world or so they say.

Originally posted by Drakxii

 

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Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
Nope, they aren't. Minecraft is not an MMORPG and Second Life is a virtual world simulation, but also not an MMORPG.

---

 

MMORPG.com counts SL as an MMORPG(so do I).

I saw it. I certainly am surprised that it's listed. Well, opinions differ, most people however don't classify Second Life an MMORPG, as little as World of Tanks is an MMORPG.

---

This is way too vague. Please elaborate what sandbox elements you're talking about that add the ability to change the world and affect other players for better or worse in a way that isn't possible or happening in themepark MMO's.

---

 

First meaningful pvp, price wars, crafting with quality, housebuilding, shipbuilding, etc.. Secondly I didn't say that weren't in Themepark MMOs I said that they wouldn't be in a full themepark, aka one without any sandbox elements.

If I understand it correctly, since all MMO's have bits of themepark and sandbox there doesn't exist a full themepark that doesn't have any sandbox elements at all, right? Which I agree with, since most of those tagged sandbox features can be found one way or the other in themepark MMO's too.

---

Also, I have to wonder how many MMO's that are titled 'sandbox' will fulfill those criteria you're referring to, outside of UO, SWG and EVE maybe.

---

I am not bioware or some of these type fanboys that think that one game is either one or the other. To me all MMOs have bits of themepark and bits of sandbox. A game is defined where they lay between the two extremes.

I'm glad that you apparently aren't one of those typical sandbox fanbois or themepark haters that can see MMO's only as either one or the other, too many of those think in rigid terms like 'WoW clone' or 'real MMORPG' and other black&white descriptions to camouflage their favoritism of sandbox MMO's and dislike of themepark MMO's, while reality is a lot greyer than is often thought.

Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt

Yes but LOTRO has a very good crafting system, and very nice player housing system that the developer's need to give better attention.

LOTRO also has appearance tab and music system in place for players to play music instruments, smoke pipes.

The end effect is you end with a much more social game with things to do other than running dungeons.

 And that has been so popular that the game is now free to play.

EQ2 follows most of all this also... but where it shines is just how massive the game world is and how you can explore it and mentor lower levels or even lower your level to match the content. EQ2 has open world dungeons so you run into other players.

 How many play that game? I'm asking because there is obviously already games out with those features you like available. So why aren't more people playing them?

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt

Yes but LOTRO has a very good crafting system, and very nice player housing system that the developer's need to give better attention.

LOTRO also has appearance tab and music system in place for players to play music instruments, smoke pipes.

The end effect is you end with a much more social game with things to do other than running dungeons.

 And that has been so popular that the game is now free to play.

EQ2 follows most of all this also... but where it shines is just how massive the game world is and how you can explore it and mentor lower levels or even lower your level to match the content. EQ2 has open world dungeons so you run into other players.

 How many play that game? I'm asking because there is obviously already games out with those features you like available. So why aren't more people playing them?

Turbine was to slow with the content, and this hurt them.

People left the game because of lack content and how slow it was coming... Turbine wanted to try and milk the story and drag it out, while at the same time bring the books alive in their mmo.

LOTOR is doing very well as a F2P mmo as is DDO.

SOE with EQ2 should have stuck to their guns!

Instead 6 months after release they going changing the game and messing with stuff.

Developer's have learned the hard way that if players want WoW they will play WoW... this is the biggest and one true mistake SOE has shown and hopefully learned from with EQ2.

EQ2 is a good mmo right now but it just had some serious growing pains and the changes it took hurt it.

It also does not help the developer for EQ2 don't talk to the community or listen to the feedback.

I look for mmo's like Everquest Next aka EQ3 and ArcheAge to be the next virtual online worlds that people play in.

If people want an online game with chat lobby and some multiplayer elements tacked on then by all means let them have at it with ToR!

Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt

I look for mmo's like Everquest Next aka EQ3 and ArcheAge to be the next virtual online worlds that people play in.

If people want an online game with chat lobby and some multiplayer elements tacked on then by all means let them have at it with ToR!

This is only part that confuses me.

Unless Everquest next is completely different from original everquest then i'm not sure i'm seeing much different.

Lets see what Everquest had.

Solo mobs

Group type mobs

raids

Wide open worlds

Multiple starter cities.

Multiple classes

Multiple races.

Few quests

Day/night cycles

If by virtual worlds you mean lack of quests and lots of races/starter towns and a day night cyclethen i'm not sure i understand. Seeing as SW:ToR has the follow

solo mobs

Group type mobs

Raids

Wide open worlds

Multiple races

Lots of quests.

Day/Night depend on where you are in the world.

Everquest basically was the following. You pick a race/gender (I'm pretty sure all MMOs do this so i'll make a leap of faith here and assume SW:ToR will as well)

Then your dropped into the world.  You can do one of the two. You can either A talk to the NPCs and pick up a quest to get a betterish weapon or maybe some armor or B just run out into the starter zones and blast your way through countless mobs until you get enough plat gold silver copper to buy a better weapon and armor and enough experience to kill bigger mobs....rinse repeat over and over again until your max level with god like armor weapons and gotten all your spells.  Btw you can do this in SW:ToR as well. Just run out kill mobs until you rake up enough money to buy a better weapon and armor to kill bigger mobs, rinse repeat.  This isn't the best method as you'll most likely move at the same speed of Everquest so most do the quests.  You are however minus the companions and ship not required to do any quests.  The only reason your required to do these really is one the game is designed around companions so you'll be at a disadvantage without them, and the ship so you can get to other planets and thus more mobs.  Beyond those though you can do exactly like EQ if you want.

Everquest has nearly every MMO even most of the asians beat in the grind territory grind for exp, grind for armor, grind for weapons, grind for crafting ingrediants, grind your weapon skills, grind your spells, grind your ingrediants so you can then craft your spell, grind grind grind, trust me after 5 years I know exactly what EQ is. Infact i'm about to get a refresher later tonight. Mobs do move (which i'm sure SW:ToR's will as well) but the NPCs don't move.  I can find the weapon's merchant in the weapon shop any time of day...or night. The only thing that move in those towns is the guards themselves.  So how if Sw:ToR doing the same thing and sometimes even better makes it less then everquest in world design i don't know.

As for your lobby based statement with MMo tact on.  Well i guess you could call it lobby based but being 85% of the game world is suppose to be that lobby where you can walk around do quests and kill mobs talk to other people and hang out in places.  However to be fair if that makes it a lobby based game, then nearly every MMo post WoW is a lobby based game.  That or...you may either be mistaken on exactly how Sw:ToR is set up or exergatting the facts to make it seem a whole lot worse then it really is.

To give you some details

You can grind mobs in the open world

You can grind money in the open worlds

Most of the quests are again in the open world

Boss mobs are in the open world

You can meet other people and fight in this open world

You can go to other towns by walking to them, you don't have to take trasnport though that is a lot faster.

Pretty much like Everquest, except for the fact that in the rare case you will encounter areas where it's instance for immersion purposes like quest npcs.  Trust me this is actually favorable when the quest are presented this way to void out the other players because the last thing you want when someone is being dramtic and trying to make a point is for the camera to be obstructed by another person's body.  Especially when i'm suppose to be the only one in that room and they're last hope, the last thing i want to see is the moment i come out of the quest is to see the person right next to me getting the exact same quest.  I think the problem here is people confused is because they see or hear that the story elements are instances and assume because the entire game is revovling around story that thus the entire game is instanced and therefore lobby based. However from the way it's described only the personal story (which starts heavy at first and tappers off later) is the part that is heavily instanced, again this counts towards that 15% instanced.  

World quests npc are clicked on and you see a cinematic while the other people see you disappear (or something to that affect) until the narriation is complete. Otherwise it's still in the open world.

Trading is done in the open world. Selling is done in the open world, Normal quests are done in the open world. Raiding is done in the open world.

Flashpoints and personal story and your ship are instanced

There are 17 planets

Each of these planets have  a certain percentage of instance and non instance areas adding up to an average of 85% being non instance and 15% being instanced.

In each one of these 17 planets you have NPCs, quests, mobs and locations you can visit.

Each one is suppose to be distinct.

Each one of these worlds allows people to roam around seemlessly until you decide to leave the planet.

I think people need to look at the game again before stating it's lobby based or re-evalute what lobby based means because thats so off the mark thats like saying fallen earth is lobby based....which for the record...it isn't.

Good.

I'm a sandbox nerd, for certain, but that is not what this project needs—it's not the only way to create an excellent RPG, and an RPG is what I expect out of TOR.

KOTOR was not a sandbox.

KOTOR2 was not a sandbox.

Why should SWTOR be a sandbox???

I LOVE sandbox games....but that's not what this title is about.

Originally posted by vanderghast

 

I don't expect anything other than a single player RPG with the ability to occasionally play coop out of TOR.  once i finish a character i doubt there will be much reason to play through again.  I don't expect much of an endgame.  I expect to MAYBE get a month of play out of it and then check back when there's an expansion.  But that's par for hte course for any mmo now.  Not much incentive to keep playing at level cap once you've done the content.

Indeed. MMOs today = a one month experience (potentially two) at most.

And, for the most part, that's OK.

While many of us would love a world to get lost in and fall in love with for months on end, it's clear that for whatever reason that's not on the cards for sane people. (Those who like banging their head on a wall for hours on end have no end of games availabel to em)

But truth be, a good month in a game is pretty decent.

One day we'll see the second coming; in the meantime, the MMOs on offer are a perfectly decent part of a gamers' rotation. (MMO, RTS, 4X, FPS, platformer, puzzler etc etc)

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by ktanner3

"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).

 

There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.

That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.

There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.

In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."

Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer

This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features. 

Well they've made no secret that they had no intention of making SWG pre CUNGE 2, so this isn't exactly breaking news. Nor is it bad news. SWG failed on many levels, both before and after CUNGE. I want to see these guys do their own take on the SW universe, not just rehash someone else's rubbish.

 

However, and I admit it could just be me reading something into his tone that isn't actually there, I feel there is more than a bit of hostility towards the disgruntled SWG vet crowd. I find the whole Uncle Owen and moisture farmer example to be tired and hackneyed, and a piss poor analogy for an argument. Mainly because it so very simplifies (childishly so) what kind of player activities that were possible during the old days of SWG. It is also not meant to be a logical argument (at least I hope these people are a bit better educated than that) but more bait for angst ridden SWG vets to flame out on. I find Zoeller's use of such analogies to be confrontational, foolish, and counter productive.

 

As to his claims that there will be out of combat player activities to promote player interaction, well I hope he is right. However all I've seen so far is you will have less sideline activities to participate in. In old SWG you could be an artisan, politician, or diplomat if you so chose. In SWTOR if you want to have those kinds of adventures it looks like you just have the butler do it.

 

Now I'm not saying that what I am REALLY looking for in a Star Wars game is to live the life of the hole in the wall Gungan haberdasher, but I also expect a bit more for my money than just another "pew pew LaZoR BeAmS" SW combat simulator. And I don't think myself or other SW fans are unjust to expect such features as we were SW fans long before video games even existed.

 

So to Mr. Zoeller, you want to impress us? Then you can start by explaining exactly what you guys bring to the table. Stop with the snide side comments about a certain faction of that "other game". All you are doing with those is alienating a group of people who actually want to be your customers.

I played SWG pre CU and I don't think the Uncle Owen example isn't hackneyed at all. There wasn't a fucking thing to do in SWG except payout 25k for buffs and then go hunt the Dantooine equivalent of a cow or craft. It was a grind, it was mind-numbing, it was incredibly boring, and anyone playing it prayed they either got a bounty or they were logged on when PvP events (all too rare) occurred. In short, pre-CU sucked and yes, due to the repetitive never-ending grind for xp without even a story to tell it was exactly like going to a job, or in this case, moisture farming as Uncle Owen.

As far as artisan goes, wahoo a money maker. I have a job IRL, I don't need to have one in game. Diplomat? WTF game were you playing? There were never any negotiations with anyone or any faction. All you had were town mayors and to take that profession weakened your character tremendously.

The only out of combat activity that was any fun on SWG at all was a party, and those got old quickly. Still, with player ships capable of hosting, a party can be done. The rest of SWG's options sucked and I'm thankful they won't show up in SWTOR.

As for Mr. Zoeller wanting to impress you, why the hell would he? You're exactly the kind of player SWTOR isn't interested in. They want dramatic action and storytelling heroes, and you want to be Uncle Owen. Just on the side, as an option.

Originally posted by nightfallrob

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by ktanner3

"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).

 

There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.

That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.

There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.

In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."

Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer

This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features. 

Well they've made no secret that they had no intention of making SWG pre CUNGE 2, so this isn't exactly breaking news. Nor is it bad news. SWG failed on many levels, both before and after CUNGE. I want to see these guys do their own take on the SW universe, not just rehash someone else's rubbish.

 

However, and I admit it could just be me reading something into his tone that isn't actually there, I feel there is more than a bit of hostility towards the disgruntled SWG vet crowd. I find the whole Uncle Owen and moisture farmer example to be tired and hackneyed, and a piss poor analogy for an argument. Mainly because it so very simplifies (childishly so) what kind of player activities that were possible during the old days of SWG. It is also not meant to be a logical argument (at least I hope these people are a bit better educated than that) but more bait for angst ridden SWG vets to flame out on. I find Zoeller's use of such analogies to be confrontational, foolish, and counter productive.

 

As to his claims that there will be out of combat player activities to promote player interaction, well I hope he is right. However all I've seen so far is you will have less sideline activities to participate in. In old SWG you could be an artisan, politician, or diplomat if you so chose. In SWTOR if you want to have those kinds of adventures it looks like you just have the butler do it.

 

Now I'm not saying that what I am REALLY looking for in a Star Wars game is to live the life of the hole in the wall Gungan haberdasher, but I also expect a bit more for my money than just another "pew pew LaZoR BeAmS" SW combat simulator. And I don't think myself or other SW fans are unjust to expect such features as we were SW fans long before video games even existed.

 

So to Mr. Zoeller, you want to impress us? Then you can start by explaining exactly what you guys bring to the table. Stop with the snide side comments about a certain faction of that "other game". All you are doing with those is alienating a group of people who actually want to be your customers.

I played SWG pre CU and I don't think the Uncle Owen example isn't hackneyed at all. There wasn't a fucking thing to do in SWG except payout 25k for buffs and then go hunt the Dantooine equivalent of a cow or craft. It was a grind, it was mind-numbing, it was incredibly boring, and anyone playing it prayed they either got a bounty or they were logged on when PvP events (all too rare) occurred. In short, pre-CU sucked and yes, due to the repetitive never-ending grind for xp without even a story to tell it was exactly like going to a job, or in this case, moisture farming as Uncle Owen.

As far as artisan goes, wahoo a money maker. I have a job IRL, I don't need to have one in game. Diplomat? WTF game were you playing? There were never any negotiations with anyone or any faction. All you had were town mayors and to take that profession weakened your character tremendously.

The only out of combat activity that was any fun on SWG at all was a party, and those got old quickly. Still, with player ships capable of hosting, a party can be done. The rest of SWG's options sucked and I'm thankful they won't show up in SWTOR.

As for Mr. Zoeller wanting to impress you, why the hell would he? You're exactly the kind of player SWTOR isn't interested in. They want dramatic action and storytelling heroes, and you want to be Uncle Owen. Just on the side, as an option.

Guess you skipped over the areas in red. Guess you missed the couple of other posts where I said SWG was a disaster. And yes the Uncle Owen and Moisture Farmer example is hackneyed and lazy, just like the guys who immediately discount SWTOR as just another WOW CLONE. Get it?

I also mentioned I don't want to just sit on my ass in a SW game and do something like full time crafting, but I also don't want to just do the same tired sh*t I've been doing in every other MMO I've played for the last 6 years.

I hope it will be more than the same lame cycle of level, BG, raid, BG, raid, BG, to scrounge a bunch of pointless epic level trinkets, even if the journey there comes with a nice little interactive movie along the way. So far what they have shown us, hasn't convinced me that SWTOR is that much different from games I'm already tired of, though humorously enough the news that they weren't going to just make SWG 2 is the best news I've heard so far.

So why would Zoeller and the rest of the devs want to impress me? Because I am a Star wars fan, a Bioware fan, and a MMORPG fan. If with all that in their favor they have yet to convince me to play this game, then something is very wrong.

Next time you decide to take me to task for any comments I made, make sure you actually read them first or don't waste my time.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by nightfallrob

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by ktanner3

"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).

 

There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.

That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.

There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.

In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."

Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer

This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features. 

Well they've made no secret that they had no intention of making SWG pre CUNGE 2, so this isn't exactly breaking news. Nor is it bad news. SWG failed on many levels, both before and after CUNGE. I want to see these guys do their own take on the SW universe, not just rehash someone else's rubbish.

 

However, and I admit it could just be me reading something into his tone that isn't actually there, I feel there is more than a bit of hostility towards the disgruntled SWG vet crowd. I find the whole Uncle Owen and moisture farmer example to be tired and hackneyed, and a piss poor analogy for an argument. Mainly because it so very simplifies (childishly so) what kind of player activities that were possible during the old days of SWG. It is also not meant to be a logical argument (at least I hope these people are a bit better educated than that) but more bait for angst ridden SWG vets to flame out on. I find Zoeller's use of such analogies to be confrontational, foolish, and counter productive.

 

As to his claims that there will be out of combat player activities to promote player interaction, well I hope he is right. However all I've seen so far is you will have less sideline activities to participate in. In old SWG you could be an artisan, politician, or diplomat if you so chose. In SWTOR if you want to have those kinds of adventures it looks like you just have the butler do it.

 

Now I'm not saying that what I am REALLY looking for in a Star Wars game is to live the life of the hole in the wall Gungan haberdasher, but I also expect a bit more for my money than just another "pew pew LaZoR BeAmS" SW combat simulator. And I don't think myself or other SW fans are unjust to expect such features as we were SW fans long before video games even existed.

 

So to Mr. Zoeller, you want to impress us? Then you can start by explaining exactly what you guys bring to the table. Stop with the snide side comments about a certain faction of that "other game". All you are doing with those is alienating a group of people who actually want to be your customers.

I played SWG pre CU and I don't think the Uncle Owen example isn't hackneyed at all. There wasn't a fucking thing to do in SWG except payout 25k for buffs and then go hunt the Dantooine equivalent of a cow or craft. It was a grind, it was mind-numbing, it was incredibly boring, and anyone playing it prayed they either got a bounty or they were logged on when PvP events (all too rare) occurred. In short, pre-CU sucked and yes, due to the repetitive never-ending grind for xp without even a story to tell it was exactly like going to a job, or in this case, moisture farming as Uncle Owen.

As far as artisan goes, wahoo a money maker. I have a job IRL, I don't need to have one in game. Diplomat? WTF game were you playing? There were never any negotiations with anyone or any faction. All you had were town mayors and to take that profession weakened your character tremendously.

The only out of combat activity that was any fun on SWG at all was a party, and those got old quickly. Still, with player ships capable of hosting, a party can be done. The rest of SWG's options sucked and I'm thankful they won't show up in SWTOR.

As for Mr. Zoeller wanting to impress you, why the hell would he? You're exactly the kind of player SWTOR isn't interested in. They want dramatic action and storytelling heroes, and you want to be Uncle Owen. Just on the side, as an option.

Guess you skipped over the areas in red. Guess you missed the couple of other posts where I said SWG was a disaster. And yes the Uncle Owen and Moisture Farmer example is hackneyed and lazy, just like the guys who immediately discount SWTOR as just another WOW CLONE. Get it?

 

I also mentioned I don't want to just sit on my ass in a SW game and do something like full time crafting, but I also don't want to just do the same tired sh*t I've been doing in every other MMO I've played for the last 6 years.

 

I hope it will be more than the same lame cycle of level, BG, raid, BG, raid, BG, to scrounge a bunch of pointless epic level trinkets, even if the journey there comes with a nice little interactive movie along the way. So far what they have shown us, hasn't convinced me that SWTOR is that much different from games I'm already tired of, though humorously enough the news that they weren't going to just make SWG 2 is the best news I've heard so far.

 

So why would Zoeller and the rest of the devs want to impress me? Because I am a Star wars fan, a Bioware fan, and a MMORPG fan. If with all that their favor they have yet to convince me to play this game, then something is very wrong.

 

Next time you decide to take me to task for any comments I made, make sure you actually read them first or don't waste my time.

So what you are saying is that you don't like SWG, don't like the playstyle, but take offense to alleged remarks made against SWG players, as if you were still one of them?  I still don't get it why you would want them to convince you then.

Originally posted by twodayslate

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by nightfallrob

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by ktanner3

"Just to manage expectations (and I think we've posted this a number of times now in the last few years).

 

There is already a Star Wars MMO that focuses primarily on these features. We're making a different kind of game and we've been pretty open about that from the start.

That does not mean we are hostile to certain sandbox features such as player built housing - it just means that these kind of features are not a particularly high priority to us at this point as we navigate to ship.

There will certainly be out-of-combat player activities and activities that promote social interaction in the game, but you will not be able to take a job as a moisture farmer on Tatooine and simulate the life of such an individual in our game.

In short: Uncle Owen and his life is not the kind of heroic journey we're going for with this game. (The jawa's with their rocket launchers wouldn't make that a very fun activity anyway)."

Georg "Observer" Zoeller
Principal Lead Combat Designer

This was written in response to a thread on TOR's site asking for sandbox features. 

Well they've made no secret that they had no intention of making SWG pre CUNGE 2, so this isn't exactly breaking news. Nor is it bad news. SWG failed on many levels, both before and after CUNGE. I want to see these guys do their own take on the SW universe, not just rehash someone else's rubbish.

 

However, and I admit it could just be me reading something into his tone that isn't actually there, I feel there is more than a bit of hostility towards the disgruntled SWG vet crowd. I find the whole Uncle Owen and moisture farmer example to be tired and hackneyed, and a piss poor analogy for an argument. Mainly because it so very simplifies (childishly so) what kind of player activities that were possible during the old days of SWG. It is also not meant to be a logical argument (at least I hope these people are a bit better educated than that) but more bait for angst ridden SWG vets to flame out on. I find Zoeller's use of such analogies to be confrontational, foolish, and counter productive.

 

As to his claims that there will be out of combat player activities to promote player interaction, well I hope he is right. However all I've seen so far is you will have less sideline activities to participate in. In old SWG you could be an artisan, politician, or diplomat if you so chose. In SWTOR if you want to have those kinds of adventures it looks like you just have the butler do it.

 

Now I'm not saying that what I am REALLY looking for in a Star Wars game is to live the life of the hole in the wall Gungan haberdasher, but I also expect a bit more for my money than just another "pew pew LaZoR BeAmS" SW combat simulator. And I don't think myself or other SW fans are unjust to expect such features as we were SW fans long before video games even existed.

 

So to Mr. Zoeller, you want to impress us? Then you can start by explaining exactly what you guys bring to the table. Stop with the snide side comments about a certain faction of that "other game". All you are doing with those is alienating a group of people who actually want to be your customers.

I played SWG pre CU and I don't think the Uncle Owen example isn't hackneyed at all. There wasn't a fucking thing to do in SWG except payout 25k for buffs and then go hunt the Dantooine equivalent of a cow or craft. It was a grind, it was mind-numbing, it was incredibly boring, and anyone playing it prayed they either got a bounty or they were logged on when PvP events (all too rare) occurred. In short, pre-CU sucked and yes, due to the repetitive never-ending grind for xp without even a story to tell it was exactly like going to a job, or in this case, moisture farming as Uncle Owen.

As far as artisan goes, wahoo a money maker. I have a job IRL, I don't need to have one in game. Diplomat? WTF game were you playing? There were never any negotiations with anyone or any faction. All you had were town mayors and to take that profession weakened your character tremendously.

The only out of combat activity that was any fun on SWG at all was a party, and those got old quickly. Still, with player ships capable of hosting, a party can be done. The rest of SWG's options sucked and I'm thankful they won't show up in SWTOR.

As for Mr. Zoeller wanting to impress you, why the hell would he? You're exactly the kind of player SWTOR isn't interested in. They want dramatic action and storytelling heroes, and you want to be Uncle Owen. Just on the side, as an option.

Guess you skipped over the areas in red. Guess you missed the couple of other posts where I said SWG was a disaster. And yes the Uncle Owen and Moisture Farmer example is hackneyed and lazy, just like the guys who immediately discount SWTOR as just another WOW CLONE. Get it?

 

I also mentioned I don't want to just sit on my ass in a SW game and do something like full time crafting, but I also don't want to just do the same tired sh*t I've been doing in every other MMO I've played for the last 6 years.

 

I hope it will be more than the same lame cycle of level, BG, raid, BG, raid, BG, to scrounge a bunch of pointless epic level trinkets, even if the journey there comes with a nice little interactive movie along the way. So far what they have shown us, hasn't convinced me that SWTOR is that much different from games I'm already tired of, though humorously enough the news that they weren't going to just make SWG 2 is the best news I've heard so far.

 

So why would Zoeller and the rest of the devs want to impress me? Because I am a Star wars fan, a Bioware fan, and a MMORPG fan. If with all that their favor they have yet to convince me to play this game, then something is very wrong.

 

Next time you decide to take me to task for any comments I made, make sure you actually read them first or don't waste my time.

So what you are saying is that you don't like SWG, don't like the playstyle, but take offense to alleged remarks made against SWG players, as if you were still one of them?  I still don't get it why you would want them to convince you then.

OMFG have you no reading comprehention what so ever? I did not take offense at Zoellers remark because I am a pissed off SWG vet, nor becuse I like pissed off SWG vets. I took offense becuase I felt it was a foolish and incendiary thing for a member of the SWTOR development team to say. It has the potential to bring ill will from potiential SWTOR fans (and future customers), when none is warrented.Whether you belive me or not I would love to see this game be a runaway success. But when there is already so much negative feeling against this game (most of it completely unjustified imho) seeing a major memeber of the game design crew do something like this makes me wonder how the hell this game is ever going to survive.

SWTOR and SWG have only the SW ip in common. However when someone from their camp makes this kind of comment it makes it seem like there is some kind of link, even some kind of rivalry between makers and fans of both games, which is a very foolish thing to do public relations wise, as there is a pretty large group of angst ridden bastards from that "other game" that don't need much of an excuse to go off on a pity party bitch fest about how they got disenfranchised by said "other game". So if the aforementioned angst ridden bastards see Zoeller's comment as an insult and possibly a challenge, guess whos going to turn up to dis this new game, whether they ever intedned to play it or not. A game that is already receiving a ton of unjustified flack just for being a SW game. It puts me in mind of the snide anti-wow remarks that the makers of Rift made, and the fallout that came because of it.

Originally posted by gobla

 

Few points:

• Being labelled a Sith does not make you a Sith. Jedi and Sith are the most common force users, but they're not the only ones. So to a uneducated person they'll appear either Jedi or Sith, but that does not make it so.
• Anakin, while still Anakin, was a dark-side Jedi. He wasn't a Sith. During episode 2 & 3 he was still, from his point of view, fighting for the good of the republic and following the spirit of the Jedi teachings, albeit not the letter. Only when he turned into Darth Vader and received more education from the Emperor did he turn into a Sith.
• And I agree that all dark-side Jedi will likely turn into Sith eventually or otherwise redeem themselves ( as Revan did ). But there is a transitional period during which they're still Jedi who use the dark-side. They still believe they're serving the greater good but they do use the dark side as they deem it necessary. Only after the dark-side has fully corrupted them do they cease being Jedi.
• The Jedi change, and with that the definition of what a Jedi is. If you're not part of the Jedi order then you're not a Jedi. Even if you follow a doctrine equal to what the order will be like 1000 years earlier or 1000 years in the future. At the present you're simply not a Jedi. There's no Jedi-side of the force. Jedi is something made up by the races of the galactic republic. Just like those knightly orders mentioned earlier, each order has it's rules and you're only a Templar if you're accepted by the Templar order and follow their rules. If you follow the rules that the Templars used to follow or are going to follow in 100 years then you're, at present, not a Templar.

Off topic:

Wow... I started a 10-page debate with a silly quip about 300 million? I used the number as a joke in reference to the title, which is old news. Calm down folks. We all know they aren't shelling out $300m, just as we all know (and have known since it was announced) that it won't be, never will be, and was never intended to be a Sandbox.

Wow all these years and its the exact same debates. This is very old news.

Of course not, sandbox games aint that popular and the market that constantly demands them is never happy.

Originally posted by fcazares

Wow all these years and its the exact same debates. This is very old news.

Yep. I dont understand the point of this thread either. Everybody who bothered to inform themselves about SWTOR knew from the beginning it was never planned to be a SWG2.

Originally posted by AKASlaphappy

 

Off topic:

·         Well to your first point I agree that there is force sensitive people that are not part of the Jedi order or the Sith. My point was that authors and fans of the extended universe call dark side user Sith not because they follow the teaching of the old Sith philology. In fact the vast majority of the dark side users, besides the witches of Dathomir, are referred to as Sith because Sith and Dark Side users have become synonyms. So at that point when someone says Sith it does not mean the old empire it just means dark side user. Right or wrong that is how the word Sith is used in some of the expanded universe. Of course to the Jedi or the true Sith that would not be their point of view.

 

·         As for your next two points. I totally disagree with this; Anakin was already a fallen Jedi before he became Darth Vader. If you notice none of the Jedi ever talks about what Anakin did on Tatooine when he slaughtered the sand people. Anakin completely gave himself to the darkside when he attacked that village after his mom died; at that point he was no longer a Jedi but a fallen Jedi. I honestly do not believe the other Jedi Masters ever learned about all the events that happened there, after all the Jedi were losing their powers and were becoming blind to the events that flowed around them.

 

Also the Jedi have a doctrine they follow during the prequels but the main part of being a Jedi is following the light side of the force. Or in the words of Yoda “You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.” Or “Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship. “ The light side of the force and in essence your willingness to surrender yourself to it, is what makes a Jedi a Jedi. Once you start down the dark path you are no longer a Jedi, you are a fallen Jedi like Revan (since he was a fallen Jedi before he was completely corrupted and became a Sith lord) but he was no Jedi he already turned from the light. It is a game mechanic that allows a Jedi to still be Jedi and use the dark side of the force nothing more. Because once you stop following the light side of the force you are no Jedi, you might still call yourself that, but in truth you have already abandoned everything that made you a Jedi and I am not talking about some code.

 

 

·         I completely agree that what the Jedi council sets as a standard for Jedi policy helps determine what a Jedi is at that point of time. But in all time periods were the Jedi exist there is one common truth to being a Jedi, there strength flows from the light side of the force. In fact that is the defining characteristic of the Jedi, not the policies that the Jedi set to govern their daily lives. That is where my belief comes from of why the Jedi were losing their powers during the prequels. At that point in time the Jedi was starting to put the Jedi doctrine above the light side of the force and were becoming corrupt. My opinion is that the Force started abandoning them so it could bring balance back to force users and return them to what they were supposed to be.  In essence the conclusion of the prophesy was not Anakin but Luke!

- In general I think the generalisation is harmless as as far as the protagonist in the EU novels are concerned it doesn't matter whether the dark-side user is an actual Sith or just some other douche using the dark-side. He's evil and has to be slain anyway. But when talking about Sith and non-Sith force users it should be avoided. The way I see it they're a bit like Hippopotamus and Pigmy Hippopotamus. In general it's fine is you call a pigmy hippopotamus a hippo, but when talking biology the distinction is very important as they're two different genetical families as well as having very different behaviours, even though they look much the same.

- You've probably got the better term here, fallen Jedi. As far as the Jedi council is concerned these Jedi have fallen and are just serving themselves. But to themselves, and many others ( just look at how many followed Revan ), they're still serving the greater good. Main distinction is that a Sith has a certain brutal honesty and acceptance of the dark side, he fully admits to himself that he's serving a selfish goal. While a fallen Jedi is still trying, and likely failing, to serve and help others. So in a sense he's still trying to be a Jedi. As serving and helping others is what being a Jedi is mostly about. As far as the game mechanic I think this is basically the same thing as the Sith generalisation. These fallen Jedi aren't Jedi in truth, but to those encountering them they still appear to be as they're fighting the empire ( though with rather ruthless methods ) and helping others ( though only if it benefits them ). So most people will still call these fallen Jedi Jedi, even though they're not.

- Interesting theory and one that certainly has some good points. It will be interesting to see how strict the Jedi council is in the SWToR time period. Judging from the KotOR games they were still quite strict though, Bastilla had serious reservations when it came to her attraction to Revan due to the rules of the Jedi order. This would mean that the Jedi Order had been in decline for over 3000 years, though seeing the amount of trouble and war in that time period this is entirely possible.