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News & Features Discussion  » General: Grinds My Gears: Can SOE Make It?

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139 posts found
  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/22/11 7:28:27 AM#121
Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by Daffid011

 


3)


Like I said, several SOE employees have admitted to creating the NGE and pushing for it.


 



 

Okay one last thing.  I quoted an SoE employee directly saying that he told his higher ups that the class streamling was a bad idea.  thats the crux of the NGE.  Thats what killed the game.


 


Link me a quote saying SoE pushed for this.   Either you have seen it, or you are just twisting words around for your weak argument.

You have still never quoted a single source from Lucas Arts saying they made any decision as to how the NGE was made.  Several times you have clearly stated that all the "evidence" points to Lucas Arts playing a heavy part in the changes.  

Here is a link to Jeff Freeman talking about how he had to tell people "forty times for two months" that they could do the NGE.  Need more?

Also, the NGE was far more than dropping some classes.  It changed SWG into a quest based game like wow.  It tried to change the combat into a quasi third person shooter.   It did so many more things than just change classes, but you know that. 

 

That being said, can you please post some of your "evidence" that shows Lucas Arts playing a heavy role in designing the NGE?  You have said their is evidence of that, but so far you have nothing to support it.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/22/11 7:53:23 AM#122
Originally posted by teakbois

(mod edit)


 


[1] Yes.  'SoE acquired Verant in 2000'  But EQ was always Sony's product and guess who was in charge of it?  the guy that HIRED MCQuaid in the mid 90s?  Yup, Jon Smedley.  


 


[2] And EQ2 had steady growth for 3 years after that, and still shwoed growth right up until the days WoW and EQ2 launched.  According to MMOCHARTS even beyond that btu I dotn believe it personally.


[3] And yes, people did not like GoD expansion.  It was poorly balanced so only the top % of players could experience it, and even for them it was hard.  Yet EQs population did not decline during this period.   It was the first subpar expansion and the next one was back on track in players eyes.  But they DID hold that player summit.  How is this a bad thing?  Oh but SoE doesnt listen to their customers.


 


[4] And EQ2 was NOT unfinished.  At least no more than ither games (all launch with content not in some place or another).  It just didnt perform well so they changed things.  there is a huge difference between something  not being well received and something not being finished.


 


Eh enough of this, Im done feeding the troll as the previous poster said.  I know he meant it the other way around, but at least I can see both sides of the picture.  

[1]

You do understand that there was a very different corporate culture when Verrant was in charge of EQ than when SOE was FULLY in charge right?  Also that SOE as an entity did not exist when EQ was released right? 

There were no expectations from Veranat, because EQ wasn't expected to be that successful.  SOE was created with a whole new set of expectations.  I really hope you see the difference.

 

[2]

Yes EQ grew right up until the time it had... competition and then SOE had shit on the game and players so much that half of them left in the span of a few months.  I want you to think about what I just said. 

 

[3]

Ask players what the best EQ expansion was and the overwhelming majority will say Scars of Velious.  When did Smed kick out the creative forces of Verrant and take full charge of the game?  The expansion after Velious.  Notice a trend?

 

[4]

There you go again downplaying  the failures of SOE by associating it with "other" games. 

EQ2 was not ready for release in several ways.  The game engine was absolute garbage.  The gameplay wasn't properly tested.  Everything about the game smacked of the SOE mentality of "ship it now, charge players and fix it later".  That is why it didn't perform well and required so much effort post release in attempt to fix the problems.

I actually played with the developers during that first year on the test server.  I've seen the development process for EQ2 in action.  Seven days was all we got to test a patch and then it went live.  Regardless of what it fixed, didn't fix or broke it went live as long as it didn't crash the servers.  

I'm not blaming the developers, because they were just doing what they were told to do, but seeing how upper management was calling the shots it leaves no question as to why EQ2 and other SOE games have had such poor performance. 

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3026

5/22/11 1:23:04 PM#123
Originally posted by Rinna

Start the SOE revamp with a computer game that lets gamers throw stones at Smedley.


Then fire him.

 I'd pay $30 a month to play this game.

Best Game Ever? Highest game rated on Metacritic!

  hercules

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4786

5/23/11 3:03:45 AM#124

i hope they adapt  to be honest rather then fail .a lot of the haters simply forget something "its better to have loved and lost then not to have loved".

they gave you years of pre cu ,they gave you the formula of EQ that most of you have at some point enjoyed in other games like WoW and rift,they gave you the only true mmofps game in the market.

How many other companies have had so many innovative ideas ever,very few.

Let them adapt and improve is my wish for them.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/23/11 7:22:54 AM#125

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I suspect that most people would prefer that SOE converted into a company that became synonymous with quality fun games.   Sure they gave us Everquest, but that was over ten years ago.  How long should it take a company to adapt and improve or be able to live off of its one claim to fame?

SOE has been trying to adapt and improve for the better part of the last decade, but look at the results.  DCU just released a few months ago and it is so far off the mark that it is already merging from 26 servers down to 4 servers.

I think SOE has had long enough to adapt and improve already and at this point it is safe to conclude that history will continue to repeat itself as long as the current leadership remains involved in their game making decisions.  Aside from complete blind dumb luck it is very unlikley they will be able to regain any former ground they have lost until some massive changes are made. 

  DracheSC

Novice Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 84

There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those who don''t.

5/23/11 8:52:45 AM#126

I stopped giving SOE my money when they brutally raped SWG. I hope SOE dies, that others may rise in it's place... I've held this hope for many years.


True mages don't die. They strategically miscalculate.

  kefkah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/04
Posts: 851

5/23/11 10:05:14 AM#127
Originally posted by Valeran

[mod edit]

 Totally agree. I love a good debate. Even more so when someone brings in evidence from credible sources to back it up. Daffid has done this and more. Totally ignorant would be repeating some form of personal mantra and then expecting everyone to see the logic in it. And of course, the closer is when an argument gets personal. Its like when you completely are blown out of the water and have only to add, "You're a nooneyhead." ala Animaniacs.

Last thing, the Rubenfeld blog link. That is the sanitized version. The original is still out there. Just use part of said url in a google search and you should come across it. It may even be on this site in a forum. I just mention it as that post was a lot more telling than it now appears. :D

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2142

5/23/11 11:24:39 AM#128
Originally posted by Daffid011
Originally posted by BarCrow

 Well ..let's hope I'm wrong.

It is most likley to late for a revival of the game, but it still has more potential than many games the released after it.  It is just to bad it was cut so short.   

      Agreed. I've been playing it again for the last few days. (Played it a little a few years ago.)...It is still very buggy but fun and challenging/harder than most mmos...plus I suck..e.g. .i die a lot.lol. I always loved the crafting and Diplomacy and the idea of separate enhancement gear for each profession..as well as enhancement gear for mounts..These are among some of the many  things I really like about Vanguard.

     Also been playing SWG again....I still think its buggy but fun as well. Of course..not as good as it could or should be..but Starrider server seems to have plenty of people to RP and group with so..its still fun.imo. I guess I just don't hold a grudge...a game is a game and..despite my credit info being used..(which was easily rectified ..quickly and hassle free on their end)..I have no problem with SOE. I can see where people would be pissed..but there are far better things to hate in this world..lol.

 

Don't get me wrong...I'd be more than happy if SOE put some more love into these 2 games. I'd hate to see them terminated.

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2142

5/23/11 12:33:27 PM#129
Originally posted by Daffid011
Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by Daffid011

 


3)


Like I said, several SOE employees have admitted to creating the NGE and pushing for it.


 



 

Okay one last thing.  I quoted an SoE employee directly saying that he told his higher ups that the class streamling was a bad idea.  thats the crux of the NGE.  Thats what killed the game.


 


Link me a quote saying SoE pushed for this.   Either you have seen it, or you are just twisting words around for your weak argument.

You have still never quoted a single source from Lucas Arts saying they made any decision as to how the NGE was made.  Several times you have clearly stated that all the "evidence" points to Lucas Arts playing a heavy part in the changes.  

Here is a link to Jeff Freeman talking about how he had to tell people "forty times for two months" that they could do the NGE.  Need more?

Also, the NGE was far more than dropping some classes.  It changed SWG into a quest based game like wow.  It tried to change the combat into a quasi third person shooter.   It did so many more things than just change classes, but you know that. 

 

That being said, can you please post some of your "evidence" that shows Lucas Arts playing a heavy role in designing the NGE?  You have said their is evidence of that, but so far you have nothing to support it.

 George Lucas himself would likely never admit he screwed the pooch on some of his ideas so I doubt anyone from Lucasarts would do any different.

  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

5/23/11 12:36:17 PM#130

I miss Verant.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/23/11 12:57:23 PM#131
Originally posted by BarCrow

 George Lucas himself would likely never admit he screwed the pooch on some of his ideas so I doubt anyone from Lucasarts would do any different.

Well since several ex-soe employees have come out and admitted they conceived the ideas for the NGE, worked hard to convince their superiors to make it happen and most hated the design of SWG at the time I am not convinced there is anything for Lucas Arts employees (current or former) to admit to. 

Teakbois referenced several times that there was some wealth of evidence that points to Lucas Arts did "something" and is somehow responsible or whatever.  I don't really think this is a case where the lack of any evidence is proof that something happened.

 

All things considered it really matters very little about Lucas Arts level of involvement in the NGE, because SWG was never well made or managed since its release.  Sadly that is a trend for SOE games.  Tons of potential in all of them, but so poorly presented and nonstop bad decisions have crippled their ability to rise above what they currently are.  This has given birth to threads and articles like this. 

 

Can SOE survive how it is currently running?  Is there any reason to suspect that EQ3 or PlanetsideNext will not just be another footnote in the history of problems with this company?

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2142

5/23/11 2:12:09 PM#132
Originally posted by Daffid011
Originally posted by BarCrow

 George Lucas himself would likely never admit he screwed the pooch on some of his ideas so I doubt anyone from Lucasarts would do any different.

Well since several ex-soe employees have come out and admitted they conceived the ideas for the NGE, worked hard to convince their superiors to make it happen and most hated the design of SWG at the time I am not convinced there is anything for Lucas Arts employees (current or former) to admit to. 

Teakbois referenced several times that there was some wealth of evidence that points to Lucas Arts did "something" and is somehow responsible or whatever.  I don't really think this is a case where the lack of any evidence is proof that something happened.

 

All things considered it really matters very little about Lucas Arts level of involvement in the NGE, because SWG was never well made or managed since its release.  Sadly that is a trend for SOE games.  Tons of potential in all of them, but so poorly presented and nonstop bad decisions have crippled their ability to rise above what they currently are.  This has given birth to threads and articles like this

 

Can SOE survive how it is currently running?  Is there any reason to suspect that EQ3 or PlanetsideNext will not just be another footnote in the history of problems with this company?

Can't argue with this. Though i still enjoy playing it from time to time...it's more for exploration, starship missions and just because it's Star Wars...or a fascimile. Definitely could and could've used some love. Same goes with Vanguard.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/23/11 2:45:58 PM#133

Agree with that.  I plan on hoping back in vanguard for 45 days just to experience more of what could have been.  Before it goes away forever. 

  severius

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1519

5/23/11 5:31:27 PM#134

From the articles I have read Sony as a whole is some 3.1bn in the hole this year with some 137 mil being attributed to the hack....


Sony was nearly 3bn in the hole before anonymous and geohot stuff.  Sony hasn't been "making it" for some time now so, I think the better question is how long will the fanbots let Sony sit there wallowing in its own excrement before finally allowing it the dignity of a graceful death? :)



  Nobadeeftw

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/11
Posts: 129

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall". -Confucius

5/24/11 4:18:33 AM#135

What's with all these neutral responses I keep seeing on here?  Even this articale is lingering on the fence.  The company has a horrible reputation and this incident only showed the world that all those things they were told about SOE just might be true after all.  This company only has one chance of survival and that one chance means they would have to become a different company.  That means cleaning inside and out of everything it use to be and having it controlled by people with a little passion towards the industry and not so much making a beline for easy $$$.  I doubt that is going to happen seeing their dirty track record over the last decade; so, my prediction is that SOE is either bought out or shut down in time because it will end up costing Sony more money to maintain their games than they gain from them.


  jonnyfrag

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 110

5/25/11 7:38:06 AM#136

Sony overall is getting it's butt handed to it, not just SOE (videogames anyway.) We all know SOE's debacles and underperformers but it's also pretty clear that just as they were trying to make a move into a pay model for their consoles, which is a last ditch effort to save that branch since Nintendo and Microsoft handed them their asses in this last round of console wars (not even arguing quality, just raw sales numbers...they don't lie) they get smacked down with a great reason to NOT give them any billing info anyway.

Sony's demise will all have been from one thing: complacency.  SOE had the first major hit in Everquest and they have since decided that 'we made Everquest! Anything we do that changes that model must be wrong!' Sadly, their success with that led them to beleive that they were always right and screw the customer if he complains. If someone is outraged, it's ok there's millions more subsribers to fill his slot. And we let them get away with it. Verant treated it's customer like crap and made it out to be a priledge to pay them to play in 'their world.' And people did. Fast forward to today, when they are the laughing stock of the MMO world (and to a lesser extent the console world because of their overpriced boneheaded move with blu-ray drives..yes it helped (a tiny bit) in making blu ray the winner on that war but at what cost? Your whole Playstation Empire? That had to be a tough decision) and now they are maybe finally looking around and seeing that treating your customers like crap this whole time may have led you astray.

The same thing can be said with consoles, they challenged the big guy with PS1, carved out a healthy chunk to themselves, ruled with PS2 for meany years and whizzed it down their leg with PS3, because they really thought they could do no wrong. 'People will buy ours because it is technically superior even though it's much pricier.' This of couse was only to win the HD format wars that in the long run won't matter too much anyway because actual physical media is about to be a thing of the past formatwise. They sacrificed the 3rd modern generation of console wars in order to make sure Blu Rays had a larger installed base and to get a cut off of every bluray player sold, which is huge of course. But to go from first to last in one generation chasing a dollar is obviously greedy. Yes, every company is out to give us the least while getting the most (that's business 101) but the trick is to do that without being blatantly obvious or it just makes us dislike the whole transaction. Sony let that ship sail a long time ago.

SOE has been afforded a bunch of rope, and the number of defending fanbois has dwindled and now they are in serious trouble. Not that they will admit that. They will promise updates and new stuff right up until the day they lock the damn doors on them. Then maybe they will sit in their darkened homes and realize that THEY were the ones that were the abusers in this long term abusive relationship they have had with their customers. You think I am overstating that? I can attest to you that most players of SOE games along the years have all thought to themselves they should not give money to a company that treats them like this or that. They never listen to our wants and needs. They offer empty promises and in the end it was all for nothing. Right up until the end. But then we never cancelled our accounts. We kept on living in that world, rewarding failure with another month's money.

But now, with this latest issue and the fact that it made people unplug from the SOE teat and the obvious lack of communication throughout the whole thing.... WE woke up and many are leaving the relationship. I mostly play SWG, although I've dabbled in the rest of the Station Pass games, but SWG is my main game (with an additional SWG only account even.) The only reason I have that is because SOE screwed up launching SWG and refused to merge my SWG and my EQ which grew into Station Pass account even when they a. wouldn't let me join them in the first place when I bought SWG and b/ refused to merge them even after doing so for other people for months before I asked. So in order to even play SWG I was forced to buy the whole thing again! Sorry, off topic rant but you see how deluded we can be when we really want to play something, the crap we put up with to do so.

Anyway, with everyone unplugged and getting a chance to sample the rest of the waters and such...yes... people have left and won't come back. Many of my guildies, including a bunch of the leadership that really helped the whole server in terms of keeping up enthusiasm, are gone. Never to return. Hook up with us when TOR drops. I bet there's a lot of that going around in various games.

So the tl;dr version is Sony is getting what they deserve because they have been pricks since day one, and hopefully they don't tank the industry as they go down. I really DO hope that the games get sold off to other people to tend to and maybe let them live up to the potential they have always had if they had been run by a company that gave the first shit about their customers. SWG especially to me personally.

Played: Asheron's Call(still the best fantasy MMO!), EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, DAoC, Horizons, City of Heroes/Villians, WoW (crap), LOTORO, D&D Online, Eve, Anarchy Online, and still playing SWG daily.

  Ozmodan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6561

5/25/11 7:59:23 AM#137

"Well since several ex-soe employees have come out and admitted they conceived the ideas for the NGE, worked hard to convince their superiors to make it happen and most hated the design of SWG at the time I am not convinced there is anything for Lucas Arts employees (current or former) to admit to. "

That is incorrect.  Smedley formed a team to write the NGE and did not even inform the rest of the team what was going on.  It was not the SWG team convincing anyone, it was Lucus Arts and Smedley's executives who desired to make the game more like Wow.  Sometimes I have to wonder where posters get this eroneous information.   The net is full of disinformation, you should learn to discern what is nonsense.  Ralph and his team were not even aware of the NGE changes until about 2 weeks before it was released. 

The SWG team had problems with the code not the design.  It was very hard to find bugs because it was just not designed well and NGE exacerbated that.

  Daffid011

Old School

Joined: 1/03/04
Posts: 7652

5/25/11 10:19:35 AM#138
Originally posted by Ozmodan

"Well since several ex-soe employees have come out and admitted they conceived the ideas for the NGE, worked hard to convince their superiors to make it happen and most hated the design of SWG at the time I am not convinced there is anything for Lucas Arts employees (current or former) to admit to. "

That is incorrect.  Smedley formed a team to write the NGE and did not even inform the rest of the team what was going on.  It was not the SWG team convincing anyone, it was Lucus Arts and Smedley's executives who desired to make the game more like Wow.  Sometimes I have to wonder where posters get this eroneous information.   The net is full of disinformation, you should learn to discern what is nonsense.  Ralph and his team were not even aware of the NGE changes until about 2 weeks before it was released. 

The SWG team had problems with the code not the design.  It was very hard to find bugs because it was just not designed well and NGE exacerbated that.

First, if you are going to call me out for speading misinformation please give some information or links to correct my mistakes.   Not that it matters, because I am just repeating what the SOE developers have said..

Second, I'm not sure how you read my comments or came to the conclusion you did, but that isn't even close to what I was talking about.  I didn't say it was the entire SOE team or that LA/Smed were not involved.  I know that even the NGE was kept secret from much of the SWG team and some of them quit in protest over the surprise changes.  However it was not some mandate handed down from the highest management.  I'm sure in the few months that the NGE was being developed it ended up a collaberation between SOE/LA, but I was talking about the origins of the concept for the NGE.  Without that there never would have been a third overhaul to SWG.

I'm not saying Smed/Lucas were not involved, but that wasn't until the concept was already conceived by SOE employees. The point I was making is that the birthplace of the NGE started at SOE with the SWG team.  They came up with the concept, they promoted it, they didn't like either version of SWG and it took convincing on their part to get approval to work on it.    Again, read up on what some of the soe swg devs have admitted. 

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7429

"Really officer, they're herbs."

5/25/11 10:24:12 AM#139

I will not shed a tear if SOE crumbles and goes away.  Worst gaming company on the planet as far as I am concerned.  Good riddance.

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