Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

/rant

Originally posted by dbstylin34

Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

 

/rant

Because they are cry babies, they want what they can't get. The worst argument I ever seen of this was casuals saying we pay the same money we should get good stuff to. Yeah put in the time then you too can have good gear items whatever. Casuals cry and are the reason why so many games exist today as easy mode. Go to any forum and all the changes are due to the massive casual cry babies wanting change they did not have a right to because they don't spend the time to fully take advantage of what was their to begin with.

Ever since the whiners came out starting in WOW first year, all other major game titles and lesser have followed suit in making easy mode games and to give them the fastest possible way to achieve it.

I bet they wish life had an easy mode.  These people are just lazy and are most likely the population in charge of our sluggish economy.

You work analogy i flawed, since people how work less hours can get paid more that others. It's not about how many hours you work, it's about what job you have.

Why build content that only 10% of the playerbase can experience?

Originally posted by dbstylin34

Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

 

/rant

Thats why games are being made so easy. People just want be most powerfull asap in games. But it kinda ruins the experience. In real life if someone is working hard to be great dancer and someone spends just 2 hours a week ofc he is not gona be as good as the one who trains 8 hours a day. And also it seems that casual ppl thinks that its impossible to reach hardcore players in other game. For ex. EvE, many ppl would say you cant be as good as old player and I'm asking why not? Ofc old player can fly all different kinds of ships it just means for casuals they need to focus on one thing - same thing what did hardcore players at start.

Good example could be for those people Dungeons and Dragons (not PC game but the old good adventure "chating" game). I was playing some time similar game like D&D and one of us wanted to have everything asap - it ruined the game as hell because in few days we had almost anything and than ... boring, so we started again and explained that guy that this sux if you have in few days a castle or an empire - he thought it will sux but guess what, he was excited as hell when he got his forst enchanted sword or armor etc.. Ofc games are just games but why do you think ppl play EvE so long, cause they have tons of stuff what they can do there.

I think more games should go with EvE's leveling system - its not based by how much kill mobs but in time. Some people could say that if I play 10 hours a day why I cant have more, its wrong, you have more. More experience with the game, more money in game, more friends, more friendly factions etc. I feel like in most games I get to certain point and I can buy stuff what is in that point but after a while its useless (armor or weapons whatever). In EvE you can use almost anything what you did in past, even level 1 weapons can be used (for suicide gank), small mining ship can be used even if you have trained bigger one (if you are in 0 sec and you are scared to lose it) etc.

Also a big difference between EvE and most fantasy MMOs is (imo) that in most fantasy MMOs you can play those games even with "wrong" guild. Because everyone has kinda same goals (difference is mostly only PvP or PvE but even PvE players plays PvP and oposite) but in EvE it realy matters if you find a good corporation for you. If you are miner and you go into military corp which fights in 0 sec you cant do much if they wont help you mine, in WoW, Lotro, AoC etc. you can solo to max lvl. In EvE there is no such a thing as max lvl so you are kinda "forced" by world to group so you can do more.

What kind of hardcore are we talking about here? You seem to think that anyone who puts loads of time into a game is by default a good player, which ofc just isnt true. I'm not really sure where I stand on this one... Should skill not be a factor at all? Ever played guild wars? I remember SWG for the most part wasnt too gear dependant except for some really rare weapons.

I think its kinda funny that you mention WoW as bringing in the crying crowd, if anything WoW made it so that anyone with a shitload of playtime can beat anyone else.... ye its a game where time played > 'skill'. Why would you favor such an approach? Well, is the answer the obvious one?

edit:

I think you misunderstand Azza. Your example with the dancer should be like this: One dancer is truly skilled, but can only dance 2 hours a day. The other dancer is a walking piece of shit, but can dance 8 hours a day. He remains utter shit, but eventually he gets to be lead dancer based only on the fact that he dances 8 hours a day....

Originally posted by dbstylin34

Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

 

/rant

I agree with you but your example is wrong.

When you work you get paid for it, when you play a game you pay for it, hence as a customer you want the same benefits as everyone else.

I still think that as a gamer people should accept that whoever puts more time and effort should get better reward, but as a customer people will always push to get as much as they can for their money, it is understandable.

Originally posted by ormstunga

What kind of hardcore are we talking about here? You seem to think that anyone who puts loads of time into a game is by default a good player, which ofc just isnt true.

The more time you spend on something, the more knowledge you get. I wouldent say that it makes you hardcore but it will give you the upper hand over people that spend less time on the same thing.

the work metaphor wasnt really the strongest of points

Originally posted by dbstylin34

Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals? well i would have thought since they spend more time in game, Weather it be pveing, pvping harvesting or the like. Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week. It seems illogical to me that casuals have equal benefits in a game as a hardcore player. For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

 

/rant

/good rant OP

I agree hardcore players should be better than a casual if the game is gear based.  Now if it was skill based, the odds would come down abit.

~cheers~

Originally posted by Zoulz

You work analogy i flawed, since people how work less hours can get paid more that others. It's not about how many hours you work, it's about what job you have.

Why build content that only 10% of the playerbase can experience?

No it's not, where talking about a paticular job. (Playing video games)   Someone who spends more time, should naturaly progress further.  Sort of like being on a rode, while your doing something I'm passing you up logic.  No this doesn't mean 10% of the player base experiences the game.  It means 10% of the population is going to experience the game before the other 90%.  Maybe a virtual prostitute should come with your game to.  So you can get blown while you get every experience handed to you.  Stick to WOW, your game was allready made.

EASY MODE FOR THE WIN!!! 

Easy mode this and that.... putting time in is not hard mode. There is very little hard pve content out there, time consuming isnt the same thing as hard. You guys seem confused.

Originally posted by severd-x

Originally posted by Zoulz

You work analogy i flawed, since people how work less hours can get paid more that others. It's not about how many hours you work, it's about what job you have.

Why build content that only 10% of the playerbase can experience?

No it's not, where talking about a paticular job. (Playing video games)   Someone who spends more time, should naturaly progress further.  Sort of like being on a rode, while your doing something I'm passing you up logic.  No this doesn't mean 10% of the player base experiences the game.  It means 10% of the population is going to experience the game before the other 90%.  Maybe a virtual prostitute should come with your game to.  So you can get blown while you get every experience handed to you.  Stick to WOW, your game was allready made.

I still don't see how you analogy applies to games. Why do you want a game to be similar to a job anyway?

Before wow "dumbed down" their content, roughy 10% where able to experience it all. The others where left in the cold. Everyone don't have time to put in lots of hours into a game. Why should they not be able to experience new content? What possible benefit is there to exclude the majority of your playerbase from the new content you produce. Doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean handed? Everyone has their own pace and something that you might find easy could be challanging to someone else. Stop being a narrowminded elitist jerk. Try to see things from a broader perspective for once.

Originally posted by dbstylin34

Why people say its unfair that hardcore players get an advantage in games over casuals?

That would merely be certain casuals (not all, not by a long shot) bleating because they want everything handed to them on a plate because that's the way some people are these days.  They're lazy, impatient and think everyone should be equal regardless of effort, and they're ruining the MMO gaming genre.

Originally posted by dbstylin34

 For example, you have to people working the same job, but one works less hours, Should both employees be payed the same amount of money at the end of the week? Hell no.

The point is, this is no job. This is a game. And a game should be enjoyable for a player. It should not be a "job".

That said, I don't think anybody says that casual players have to get same reward as hardcore players. Casual players should be able to enjoy the game, that's all there is. If casual players are unable to enjoy the game because you need to grind-grind-grind to get even a little enjoyment of the game, casual players simply will not play that game.

And if the game is set on the competition between players and the players who grind-grind-grind always win over casual players, where is the enjoyment for casual player? We will not play such game. That's all.

Originally posted by Zoulz

Originally posted by severd-x

Originally posted by Zoulz

You work analogy i flawed, since people how work less hours can get paid more that others. It's not about how many hours you work, it's about what job you have.

Why build content that only 10% of the playerbase can experience?

No it's not, where talking about a paticular job. (Playing video games)   Someone who spends more time, should naturaly progress further.  Sort of like being on a rode, while your doing something I'm passing you up logic.  No this doesn't mean 10% of the player base experiences the game.  It means 10% of the population is going to experience the game before the other 90%.  Maybe a virtual prostitute should come with your game to.  So you can get blown while you get every experience handed to you.  Stick to WOW, your game was allready made.

I still don't see how you analogy applies to games. Why do you want a game to be similar to a job anyway?

Before wow "dumbed down" their content, roughy 10% where able to experience it all. The others where left in the cold. Everyone don't have time to put in lots of hours into a game. Why should they not be able to experience new content? What possible benefit is there to exclude the majority of your playerbase from the new content you produce. Doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean handed? Everyone has their own pace and something that you might find easy could be challanging to someone else. Stop being a narrowminded elitist jerk. Try to see things from a broader perspective for once.

 Thats incorrect, and that view is exactly what the problems is.  Before the nerfing 90% of instanced content  was accessable to everyone, only 10% was not reachable by more casual players until later when they had geared up more.  99% of the wow game as a whole was available to everyone.  So for the most experienced, most skilled or people who can invest more time, they could access an extra couple % of content earlier that players who had to invest more time to see that content.  The issue is that lazy players 'demand' access now.  As I have mentioned before it is like playing a 1 player game, and pushing the difficulty setting to super easy so you can immediately see the last level (and destroying the whole point of the game)  except when you push it to easy, it sets it to easy for every player that owns the game, selfish.

'Everyone has their own pace and something that you might find easy could be challanging to someone else'

exactly, so everyone should go at their own pace, not try to change the game to match their pace.

people hate facing their limits. its common human condition.

those below the average wish to be at least average. those above the average wish to remain there. reality is everyone wants to be higher.

happens hystorically all the time not just in MMOs. problem isnt people doing this. its normal for them. problem is the developers not realising this and giving in to them and thus alienating their most dedicated and loyal fans.

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Originally posted by dbstylin34
Of course Players who spend longer in game should definately reap more rewards then someone who plays a few hours a week.

---

Never heard of: "Work smarter, not harder." ?

Time constraints mechanics substitute for lowest common denominator - even the dumbest can grind, so arguing that more time spent in the game makes you somewhat better is pretty silly.

Time spent =/= skill.

Other fact is that 'hardcore' can be easily replaced by 'no-lifer' in most cases and such player base is a minority thus it would be counterproductive to design a game that way.

P.S. By the way, if I need to seriously grind gear to get access to some content, I will rather quit than grind. I'm logging in to get enjoyment, and I find none in repeating dungeons and grinding gears. I'm not saying, of course, that this content should be made easier. I'm just saying that I'll simply quit, without whining or even mentioning it on the forums.

Probably developers think it would cost them too much money if casual players would simply quit, that's why they choose us and not "hardcore".

On the other hand, I've tried free trial on warcraft and was bored out of my mind right from the start. I've leveled to lvl10 or 15, went to a couple of areas and quit 3 or 4 days into the trial. Whole concept of the game is no fun at all for me.