Am I the only one who feels that MMORPGs are becoming too simple? This is especially true when it comes to the in-game map.

I am given a quest. I am to find an NPC's lost magical watch. He tells me that the last place he saw it was at the town's docks. However, instead of me taking his advice and exploring the docks, I simply hit "M" to bring up the map. The map will provide me with a clear path to exact location of the lost magical watch... right to the barrel it's in.

There is no exploring/investigating the docks for the lost magical watch. I simple sprint to the docks, click on the "X", spring to NPC, and collect my reward. Next.

This has been adopted by almost every modern game.

RIFT: I need to kill me some Alrga Saboteurs. Here they are:

The primary problem is that the quest is weak to begin with.  If there was no map indicator you would go to the docks and proceed to click on everything in sight till you get lucky and hit the right barrel.  A quest like that will feel stupid no matter how it is executed.

When it comes to quest maps I prefer WoW's version where you are given the general area where the target is located which is information that you should already have.

Originally posted by Torik

The primary problem is that the quest is weak to begin with.  If there was no map indicator you would go to the docks and proceed to click on everything in sight till you get lucky and hit the right barrel.  A quest like that will feel stupid no matter how it is executed.

When it comes to quest maps I prefer WoW's version where you are given the general area where the target is located which is information that you should already have.

Yeah, I agree with the above.  When you are given a quest by someone, to go find something that is in a fixed location there should be a mark on your map.  It makes sense.  Questing in general is a little weak sause IMO. It'll be interesting to see how GW2 changes it, but I have a feeling that it's not going to make a HUGE wave in the MMO world.  I guess the key is balance.  When something is in a general or fixed location it should be marked, but if you have to search for something, then no.  Most designers are too lazy to really randomize anything it seems.  Even if they said, "I lost my charm in the river" It'll always be in the same place, right where they said it would be, not washed down the river, inside a creature, yada yada.

Originally posted by depain

Am I the only one who feels that MMORPGs are becoming too simple?

Yep, but it doesn't matter what we think, it's all about money. MMO companies have been dumbing down the genre for years, right along with their customers. Anything less than hand-holding in MMOs is going to be too complicated for today's average gamer.

If the goal of the MMO is to reach max level and max gear then it makes sense to have such a system. However, as the previous poster mentioned if we had more interesting quests with elements that were fun to explore and find on your own, then it wouldn't be needed.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by depain

Am I the only one who feels that MMORPGs are becoming too simple?

Yep, but it doesn't matter what we think, it's all about money. MMO companies have been dumbing down the genre for years, right along with their customers. Anything less than hand-holding in MMOs is going to be too complicated for today's average gamer.

Honestly I don't think the average gamer has changed.  I think the pool of people has remained relatively the same.  With WOW it just brought a flood of new players into the genre, and it's not that the original MMO gamers have lessened or changed, it's that we have a influx of generic gamers in the genre.  They've always been there, games have always been to complicated for them, so the comapanies dumb it down to get more and more of this market. 

If they didn't supply it people would just google it and go find a player made map online with that same circle. They are removing the requirement of multiple windows, playing in windowed mode, which in turn breaks immersion. You can argue what breaks immersion more. Being given a map by an NPC (if you want to RP it) of where he things creature X might be, or where to find his watch, or switching windows out of the game and spending 5 minutes googling for the answer. 

The "better" answer would be for you to figure it out yourself, however thats like asking people to ride their bikes 30+ miles to and from work when they own a car. They won't unless a.) they feel really strongly about riding their bike instead of driving OR b.) they are essentially forced to (traffic is awful, or they don't actually own a car).

We used to really be forced into figuring stuff out for ourselves. But playing games nowadays every game has a windowed mode or can be gotten into and out of very easily. A lot of people have multiple monitor setups. Internet speeds have become insanely fast. And forums/websites dedicated to giving players these answers are a dime a dozen.

I don't blame the games for giving us the answer, I blame the internet for forcing their hand.

I actually voted Yes despite my first reaction to say no.

If quests were truely an adventure, with epic tasks, accomplishments and rewards, then of course the answer would be no, part of the challenge should be to figure out where things are.

But in standard MMORPG design today, quests are merely a replacement for monster camps to grind, and there's no reason to run players all over the map or make them search all around to complete the goal so they can go grind up the next quest.

In the old school MMO's where people ground camps of NPC's, it would be like hiding the appropriate level camp from the player or randomizing them so they had to go searching all around trying to find the camp to grind.  Would be silly in this example and  same applies to the current quest-grind design of today.

So as long as quests are simply mechanics to facilitate character grinding for levels, I say sure, lead me right to the spot and let me be on my way. 

But if you're really going to make an epic adventure.....then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Kyleran

In the old school MMO's where people ground camps of NPC's, it would be like hiding the appropriate level camp from the player or randomizing them so they had to go searching all around trying to find the camp to grind.  Would be silly in this example and  same applies to the current quest-grind design of today.

So as long as quests are simply mechanics to facilitate character grinding for levels, I say sure, lead me right to the spot and let me be on my way. 

But if you're really going to make an epic adventure.....then we'll talk.

Good points.

I look at it from how missions and quests are done in singleplayer games, even in the cases where pointers are used, they as good as never feel as if I can autopilot to the place where I need to go without paying attention to the journey and what happens on the way.

I think there should be a balance, between convenience or player comfort and challenge. Make things too easy where the players don't have to pay attention or use their wits at all, and it degrades the overall gameplay experience.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I actually voted Yes despite my first reaction to say no.

If quests were truely an adventure, with epic tasks, accomplishments and rewards, then of course the answer would be no, part of the challenge should be to figure out where things are.

But in standard MMORPG design today, quests are merely a replacement for monster camps to grind, and there's no reason to run players all over the map or make them search all around to complete the goal so they can go grind up the next quest.

In the old school MMO's where people ground camps of NPC's, it would be like hiding the appropriate level camp from the player or randomizing them so they had to go searching all around trying to find the camp to grind.  Would be silly in this example and  same applies to the current quest-grind design of today.

So as long as quests are simply mechanics to facilitate character grinding for levels, I say sure, lead me right to the spot and let me be on my way. 

But if you're really going to make an epic adventure.....then we'll talk.

Very true. The increase of quest-driven advancement (and games where ther eis nothing to do but level up)  has made such tools almost necessary in many cases.

The fallacy of the OP is that assuming looking for things is difficult. Most of the time, it is just TEDIOUS, and time consuming, and not challenging unless a puzzle is involved.

Back in the days of the first Might & Magic, i had to graph out maps of every area on graph papers. And i have to find every single little thing in the game by searching. It is not challenging. Any little kid can do it. But it is horribly time consuming, and i almost gave up because it was no fun.

I didn't because nothing was better then. Now we have choices.

I kinda flip-flop on this one. I like convenience, but everytime I play a game with quest markers I end up losing interest in the game very quickly. It encourages you to skip all dialog so you never get involved in the story. It creates the task-list mentality that crowds out exploration and other impulsive actions.

Its kind of like telephones. The technology is there to serve us, but it never works out that way. We end up serving the technology. It encourages a mode of behaviour that, while not absolutely required, still demands that it be followed.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

The fallacy of the OP is that assuming looking for things is difficult. Most of the time, it is just TEDIOUS, and time consuming, and not challenging unless a puzzle is involved.

I would agree, but your own fallacy is that you are assuming that the alternative is "looking for things" which is not necessarily true. Games that don't use quest markers will typically have the location information right there in the quest text. Usually the only thing you are "looking for" is key words.

Lets not confuse "quest markers" with "maps". I am all for auto-mapping, but I'm not so sure about quest markers.

Originally posted by Kyleran

I actually voted Yes despite my first reaction to say no.

If quests were truely an adventure, with epic tasks, accomplishments and rewards, then of course the answer would be no, part of the challenge should be to figure out where things are.

But in standard MMORPG design today, quests are merely a replacement for monster camps to grind, and there's no reason to run players all over the map or make them search all around to complete the goal so they can go grind up the next quest.

In the old school MMO's where people ground camps of NPC's, it would be like hiding the appropriate level camp from the player or randomizing them so they had to go searching all around trying to find the camp to grind.  Would be silly in this example and  same applies to the current quest-grind design of today.

So as long as quests are simply mechanics to facilitate character grinding for levels, I say sure, lead me right to the spot and let me be on my way. 

But if you're really going to make an epic adventure.....then we'll talk.

I'm in a similar boat, although I did go ahead and vote no.

It depends on the gameplay. Is figuring out where you're supposed to go part of the gameplay? If so, then of course there shouldn't be an X. If not, then of course there should be one. But even if other people attribute it to laziness or "dumbing down" (a phrase I'm beginning to hate more and more), I don't think that's the case.

In a game like Portal, you don't want to know where you're going or how to get there. That's the gameplay. If that element were removed via the inclusion of constant tooltips saying "Drop the cube here. Shoot a blue portal onto this wall. Go up the stairs." there would be no gameplay left whatsoever. You could still enjoy looking at the graphics and listening to the story but there wouldn't be a game left to play. By contrast, in a game like Need For Speed, you want to know where you're going and how to get there. You're given arrows, a map, and the course is designed such that it's obvious where you need to go. Finding the finish line or the shortest point to it is not part of the gameplay. If you had to worry about those things, you wouldn't be able to focus on the things that are a part of the core gameplay.

As much as I would like to think that I prefer MMORPGs without floaty quest icons over NPCs and highlighted quest objectives on the map, I also do not think that a figure-it-out style of gameplay is very suitable for MMORPGs in general. When many players are racing towards the same goal that takes thousands of hours to complete—and that's how MMOs are, whether you're talking sandbox or themepark—it's unreasonable to expect that anyone would willingly set themselves back by struggling through a frustrating obstacle on their own instead of asking someone for the answer or looking it up on a wiki. Looking at the end goal (max level, best equipment, whatever) from so far away makes it that much harder to appreciate that style of gameplay.

Rather than jamming an unnatural kind of gameplay into a genre that people play for 10x or 100x longer than most other games they own, I think it's okay that quest X's exist in most games. However, I wish that it was not such an unbreakable standard. I wish that at least a few MMOs would unapologetically abandon the X's and I wish that players would more readily accept that a game can lack a feature for a legitimate reason.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

The fallacy of the OP is that assuming looking for things is difficult. Most of the time, it is just TEDIOUS, and time consuming, and not challenging unless a puzzle is involved.

Back in the days of the first Might & Magic, i had to graph out maps of every area on graph papers. And i have to find every single little thing in the game by searching. It is not challenging. Any little kid can do it. But it is horribly time consuming, and i almost gave up because it was no fun.

I didn't because nothing was better then. Now we have choices.

 Looking for things is just but a mere example. I'm talking about the difficulty as a whole: every style of quest is rendered with easy due to the "x" system.

The problem is not only about GPS Maps. Which made us look at the map 80% of the time and then when we're at the spot of the quest we switch from looking at the GPS map to.... look at the action bar. Boring.

The problem actually is about the Quest Driven Content. This is getting old. Without GPS maps the Quest Driven Game will be hectic because you usually get 30 quests at one time. Looking for the places will be a tedius task. This is a sad game design. I question the credibility of any game developer who adapt this game design. All game developers who followed the Blizzard Quest Driven path needs to shoot themselves. Blizzard "tried something new" why the hell everyone is copy-pasting this shit?

Developers should approach a different content design. Remove these Quests on Rails. It's getting too boring and quests are no longer important. These are not quests, they are Chores and Errands. Quests should be tools a developers use for the game and not THE game.

A Quest should never be the means of progress (Giving XP and Gear). At best random quest should give unique gear but they need to be hard and time confuming. Now rewards as very trivial and instant. Quests should be random and sparse (in comparison to the WoW system). You don't need to turn-on the Quest Program to be able to loot a Quest Item.

EverQuest quests were much better.

Originally posted by yewsef

 

The problem is not only about GPS Maps. Which made us look at the map 80% of the time and then when we're at the spot of the quest we switch from looking at the GPS map to.... look at the action bar. Boring.

 

The problem actually is about the Quest Driven Content. This is getting old. Without GPS maps the Quest Driven Game will be hectic because you usually get 30 quests at one time. Looking for the places will be a tedius task.

Agreed. In most of today's MMOs, you hit a town and load up on quests. As you travel out, you accumulate more and more. It becomes a real mess to keep track of where anything is, even with the extensive indexing and filtering that some MMOs offer. In games like EQ and AC, a quest is something you set out to do for that gaming session.

To me, the average quest in AC seemed far more epic than most epic quests in today's MMOs. Currently, epic seems to mean that it takes a long time, needs an optimal group and someone at the end might get a purple item. In AC, epic was usually defined by 'flood rooms', endless loot and a cool item for everyone at the end. when it came to Northern and Dires dungeons, half the challenge sometimes was the run there. Current quests just seem like a very cheap version of their former selves. That's not to say that there were no mindless quests in AC - the game was riddled with them. In AC, throughout the levels, quests that are the equivalent f Wailing Caverns and Scarlet Monastary were common, not the exception.

Originally posted by depain

Originally posted by nariusseldon

The fallacy of the OP is that assuming looking for things is difficult. Most of the time, it is just TEDIOUS, and time consuming, and not challenging unless a puzzle is involved.

Back in the days of the first Might & Magic, i had to graph out maps of every area on graph papers. And i have to find every single little thing in the game by searching. It is not challenging. Any little kid can do it. But it is horribly time consuming, and i almost gave up because it was no fun.

I didn't because nothing was better then. Now we have choices.

 Looking for things is just but a mere example. I'm talking about the difficulty as a whole: every style of quest is rendered with easy due to the "x" system.

How?  Unless the quest is all about finding something, telling players the approximate location to go to is not going to make it easier.    The Evil Ogre is not going to become a pushover simply because an NPC points out on a map where his cave is.

I support the X (If I'm forced to have a quest-based leveling game to begin with).

Why?

Well, if you DONT have this feature, every player who wants it will find some addon that will do it anyway.  If you'd prefer to not use this feature, simply don't look at the map or turn it off (if there is an option to do so).  

If we are talking about player-made maps and cool ideas like that, then I would be against the X.  But for themepark leveling games.....the sense of adventure and danger is typically gone anyway.

Originally posted by onehunerdper

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by depain

Am I the only one who feels that MMORPGs are becoming too simple?

Yep, but it doesn't matter what we think, it's all about money. MMO companies have been dumbing down the genre for years, right along with their customers. Anything less than hand-holding in MMOs is going to be too complicated for today's average gamer.

Honestly I don't think the average gamer has changed.  I think the pool of people has remained relatively the same.  With WOW it just brought a flood of new players into the genre, and it's not that the original MMO gamers have lessened or changed, it's that we have a influx of generic gamers in the genre.  They've always been there, games have always been to complicated for them, so the comapanies dumb it down to get more and more of this market. 

 I do not think they were too complicated...EQ, AC, DAoC were not complicated..too many the slow grinding was boring and that kept most of the people away.