and All of Your Characters, mannnnnnn.

Think Epic, Be Epic, and allow Our Story to Unfold. Baroooooooooooooo.<3

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

Look at Dragon Age. IMO the reason Dragon Age did well, and DA2 didnt, was simply due to people not buying hype a second time around.

Dragon Age was very hyped up. But it was nothing more than a Movie with gameplay elements. I was not going to fall for that again an waist money on Dragon Age 2. I am sure many others did the same thing.

This is what concerns me about SWTOR. I get the filling its going to be DA-SciFi-MMORPG or something. That would be totally lame. I can care less about the Starwars IP. I just want something fun. And Bioware concept of these Movies with gameplay elements, arent that much fun.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

 

Look at Dragon Age. IMO the reason Dragon Age did well, and DA2 didnt, was simply due to people not buying hype a second time around.

 

Dragon Age was very hyped up. But it was nothing more than a Movie with gameplay elements. I was not going to fall for that again an waist money on Dragon Age 2. I am sure many others did the same thing.

 

This is what concerns me about SWTOR. I get the filling its going to be DA-SciFi-MMORPG or something. That would be totally lame. I can care less about the Starwars IP. I just want something fun. And Bioware concept of these Movies with gameplay elements, arent that much fun.

Whatever happened to "and"?

I love the Elder Scrolls. I love Dragon Age. I love Fallout. I love Mass Effect. I love EvE. I love Guild Wars.

You want to know what the way to go is? Well-made games are the way to go.

And honestly, whether or not you find a game fun is completely irrelevant. I don't like WoW at all, but I can see how it's a well-made game ( yes, it is ). If you can't see that DA:O is a well-made game, regardless of whether or not you find it fun, then I'm just very happy that you're not a game developer....

@MMOExposed: nonsense. Or let's say that it's a matter of personal taste and preference what kind of RPG someone finds great.

The fact that you didn't find DA:O that great, doesn't mean that everyone has exactly the same taste as you have in RPG's. There were whole masses of people who bought DA2 because they liked DA:O and thought DA2 and many were annoyed that it wasn't.

Whole hordes of people 'bought into the hype' and do even more with the Mass Effect series, Mass Effect 2 scores even better with critics as well as gamers than Mass Effect did.

Gameplay and story go hand in hand in as good as all of the great games: the BG series had een epic saga, KOTOR was impressive, even WC3 and SC had phenomenal stories that made the gameplay that much more immersive.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

 

Look at Dragon Age. IMO the reason Dragon Age did well, and DA2 didnt, was simply due to people not buying hype a second time around.

 

Dragon Age was very hyped up. But it was nothing more than a Movie with gameplay elements. I was not going to fall for that again an waist money on Dragon Age 2. I am sure many others did the same thing.

 

This is what concerns me about SWTOR. I get the filling its going to be DA-SciFi-MMORPG or something. That would be totally lame. I can care less about the Starwars IP. I just want something fun. And Bioware concept of these Movies with gameplay elements, arent that much fun.

aren't they just different types of games.

open games have their downfalls as well. They tend to lack focus. Ever notice how in morrowind or oblvion you can just leave the main quest for as long as you want and nothing happens?

Oh sure, you can do that in dragon age I suppose but the game does funnel you into the main quest. Probably because the game is "about" the main quest.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

 

Look at Dragon Age. IMO the reason Dragon Age did well, and DA2 didnt, was simply due to people not buying hype a second time around.

 

Dragon Age was very hyped up. But it was nothing more than a Movie with gameplay elements. I was not going to fall for that again an waist money on Dragon Age 2. I am sure many others did the same thing.

 

This is what concerns me about SWTOR. I get the filling its going to be DA-SciFi-MMORPG or something. That would be totally lame. I can care less about the Starwars IP. I just want something fun. And Bioware concept of these Movies with gameplay elements, arent that much fun.

This goes counter to what the market has been saying the past 6-7 years.

ME2 is a very story driven game with sales off the charts. It also has 'less' sandboxy stuff than ME1 but still sold better.

DA2 on the other hand had some execution issues and lets face it was a quick rushed cash in.

A well-done game will sell well.

Heck look at PS:T on how well it is doing now on GOG.com. That game is not that great mechanically but has the deepest mind-blowingly good plot.

Originally posted by gobla

 

You want to know what the way to go is? Well-made games are the way to go.

 

This.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

Can you please tell me more about this thing you call "sandbox story". TES is one of my favourite RPGs but it is quite similar to other games. You have a main quest and tons of side quests in one huge open world.  The only thing I can think of that sets it apart from other RPGs is the fact that you have the whole world open to you as soon as you begin the game. But you still follow a main quest which is super linear and do some side quests around it.

Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I am sorry to say this, but Sorry in Fantasy RPG is dull to try to enforce on the playerbase.

Sandbox story is more of the way to go like ElderScrolls does.

Can you please tell me more about this thing you call "sandbox story". TES is one of my favourite RPGs but it is quite similar to other games. You have a main quest and tons of side quests in one huge open world.  The only thing I can think of that sets it apart from other RPGs is the fact that you have the whole world open to you as soon as you begin the game. But you still follow a main quest which is super linear and do some side quests around it.

the one could play it and never do any quests.

My roommate only did the side quests and other wise just explored. I don't even think he did any guild quests, or at least didn't finish them.

He only got to the part of the main quest where he dropped Martin off at cloud ruler temple and then said "ok you are on your own".

and he played it for a while. He just loved the exploring.

Originally posted by gobla

And honestly, whether or not you find a game fun is completely irrelevant. I don't like WoW at all, but I can see how it's a well-made game ( yes, it is ). If you can't see that DA:O is a well-made game, regardless of whether or not you find it fun, then I'm just very happy that you're not a game developer....

You sound like a businessman?

That is a stupid approach, for me. Why wouldn't you just play something you had fun with? I care not if a game is "well made" or not, if I have fun playing it, I'm gonna buy it.

I don't think DA:O is a well-made "game."

Cause it is boring as hell... lmao. what kinda logic is this

Originally posted by Murdus

That is a stupid approach. Why wouldn't you just play something you had fun with. I care not if a game is well or not, if I have fun playing it, I'm gonna buy it.

I don't think DA:O is a well-made "game."

Cause it is boring as hell... lmao. what kinda logic is this

He means that "well made" =/= fun game for you

A game can be well made while it still won't have to be fun for you, cause it's not your genre or other things in it you dislike, etc.

In the same manner, a game can be fun for you while objectively speaking it isn't polished or well made at all compared to other games, but still you enjoy it for what it offers.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Murdus

That is a stupid approach. Why wouldn't you just play something you had fun with. I care not if a game is well or not, if I have fun playing it, I'm gonna buy it.

I don't think DA:O is a well-made "game."

Cause it is boring as hell... lmao. what kinda logic is this

He means that "well made" =/= fun game for you

A game can be well made while it still won't have to be fun for you, cause it's not your genre or other things in it you dislike, etc.

In the same manner, a game can be fun for you while objectively speaking it isn't polished or well made at all compared to other games, but still you enjoy it for what it offers.

Yes exactly.  It's become imbedded in our culture that a product isn't good unless it specifically caters to you.  It seems that almost no one is objective anymore when reviewing a game.  

"Oh, it's not everything I want in a game; so, therefore it's a horrible game".

It's no mystery why developers have such a hard time trying to make a popular MMO anymore; because, the business side of them wants to cater to every gamer out there; but, people's interests are so polarized it makes it impossible to accomplish.  People are either going to love the way a game is made or they are going to hate it.  There might be a few features in a game they enjoy; but, that's not going to be enough to make even the most open minded gamer stick around.

I believe the sooner developers realize this, the better games will be in the future.  They need to go all in on their design or not even bother.  The more compromises they make, the more watered down their design is, making it a far less interesting title in the end.  Sure, it might not be a MASSIVE hit like WoW; but, if you look at a nitch game like EVE, all you need is a strong fan base and you're set for life.  That's what I consider a successful game, one that implements a design with no compromises and manages to attract enough fans to give it a legacy.

It's my opinion that greedy gaming companies are becoming a thing of the past; seeing how they are all slowly dying from self sustained wounds.  That to me spells a brighter future for all gamers, allowing for more competition from smaller developers who are more passionate about their products than a larger company would be, that just sees game development as part of an assembly line.

Originally posted by hulahoopnkr

 As a game developer, I honestly don't believe the resources are worth spending on an in-depth storyline for a MMORPG, if all you are after is to appease the majority. In fact, if you want to be profitable, not even having a story is a better chance. I honestly don't believe most players even read the quest lore-- and those that do are not enough to justify its existence, especially since those would more than likely still play the game without hours of quest dialogue.

The devs from (at least) 3 MMO companies disagree with you, since for their upcoming MMO's GW2, SWTOR and The Secret World there will be a bigger, more indepth implementation of story.

In fact, The Secret World to a lot of people would be a lot less interesting if the story would be trivialised especially with the unique theme it has.

And I forgot a 4th one, WoW: a lot of the CATA quests like the Worgen starter area were linked in short stories.

You have to consider the alternative: without story, questing/leveling in MMO's is hardly anything more than checking off a tasklist, and after years of doing it like that, it has become stale to a lot of MMO gamers. Add story emphasis to them in an entertaining way, and it at least feels more fun than just going through your tasks.

That's your first 200 hours of ingame experience in a new MMO, if that is bland or stale, you'll lose a lot of MMO gamers along the way, or their enthusiasm slowly drops to the point of uncaring indifference.

Story sometimes adds relevance but, more often than not, it gives context which in turn makes things seem more meaningful. Story isn't only delivered through narrative. It can delivered through the theme, design and setting of the game. It can also be delivered through the actions and requests of the NPCs throughout the game world.

For example, if one race is constantly sending you to poison pets and do other diabolic acts, you get the impression they are either evil or have a screw loose. This can be further highlighted through town settings and scripted NPC actions. If another race is constantly sending you on missions to thwart the first race's efforts, you get the impression they are trying to do some good or maybe they are enemies of the other race. Either way, some context begins to form from the story delivered through NPC actions and other game content.

I'd say very little of an MMOs story is received through narrative. Most is picked up by the tale told through gameplay and content. I'd be willing to wager that a walk once through Undercity has told more of a tale of the Undead to most players than the two prior towns full of quest text they completed before they got there.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

You have to consider the alternative: without story, questing/leveling in MMO's is hardly anything more than checking off a tasklist, and after years of doing it like that, it has become stale to a lot of MMO gamers. Add story emphasis to them in an entertaining way, and it at least feels more fun than just going through your tasks.

Very well said.

What i find funny is that nearly every RPG in existance had a really indepth story.

Most RPGs were alike in that you got equipment. levels, abilities and wandered a big world (sound familer to something else? it should)

But most RPGs are praised for one thing the story.

Somehow adding the MMO somehow negates one of the biggest features to RPGs and i'm clueless why this has to be the case. Maybe it has something to do with it not ending. Maybe it's because you see other people. I dunno

Regardless I think the reason the stories in MMos don't work or are skipped by most is because they are presented in a uninteresting way. Text requires a lot of work to read the story and stay interested when the alternative is slashing up a mob for the sake of it, and because you can easily just skip the story and not be affected this is the desired course. Add on that most of the quest are not interesting and you get most just skipping the quests in lieu of slaying monsters.

Some will read quest text but unless the story somehow impacts your character where they are encourage to read the quest beyond the mere want to learn the lore, then most will skip it.  This is generally the problem. The player isn't involved in the story in most cases they are the observer.  Nothing you do changes anything. Nothing you do even gets an effect other then a scripted dialog.

Stories need to be just as interactive as the game is if you expect your players to want to watch it or read it instead of just finding the quick way to get back in the action.

Involve the player in the story like choices or actions in some sort and you'll find them wanting to learn the story and be involved in it. Present it as a wall of text that doesn't have any affect other then a shopping list and you'll find them skipping it, most likely by the time your stories is interesting enough to warrant a read the player is just skipping along and not paying attention.

Originally posted by whilan

What i find funny is that nearly every RPG in existance had a really indepth story.

Most RPGs were alike in that you got equipment. levels, abilities and wandered a big world (sound familer to something else? it should)

But most RPGs are praised for one thing the story.

Somehow adding the MMO somehow negates one of the biggest features to RPGs and i'm clueless why this has to be the case. Maybe it has something to do with it not ending. Maybe it's because you see other people. I dunno

When RPGs moved from tabletop and LARP to CRPGs, the storytelling system lost dynamic storytelling as the human DM was replaced by a computer DM which neither knew the interests of the participants nor could discern the intent behind their actions. To compensate, more emphasis was placed on character advancement and progression systems.

id rather play games with good and deep and meaningful stories than games where my character just pops in to the world without any briefing and the things im doing ive no idea but i just keep going without reason.

Originally posted by m0lly

id rather play games with good and deep and meaningful stories than games where my character just pops in to the world without any briefing and the things im doing ive no idea but i just keep going without reason.

Wait... are we talking about games or mid-level positions in retail?