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4/28/11 4:20:51 PM#61
You will still have "damage" classes crying about not getting healed. You will have classes that have better group heals at some points. The warrior classes will be just be better at tanking. And since those classes will try to take the brunt of the damage, they will need heals more then others. But, you will still have players that will just not heal because they only wish to do damage or maybe just heal themselves. Many DPS players are selfish in that regard. A healer is not. Removing the healer isn't going to suddenly make those DPS unselfish. Sure, in guild groups, you most likely won't have any problem with this system. Just like you didn't have any problem with the trinity in a guild group. It's the pugging that matters. |
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maskedweasel
 Tipster
Joined: 9/24/07
"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane." |
4/28/11 4:31:50 PM#62
Originally posted by Swanea Interesting point, but I bet we'll see much less Pugging in GW2 since most of the PvE content revolves around Dynamic Events that caters more to players just walking in and swinging away.
It kind of auto groups you, but it doesn't require you to form a cohesive group. You can walk into an event and be the worst player ever, not even bother assisting another member and only care about yourself yet you'll still end up with the same rewards and absolutely no consequences, so what is the main incentive to group? Where is the interdependancy of classes? Well, there really isn't one, except for environmental combinations, but I don't know enough about them to make a decision on whether they will be significant in changing the flow of combat. "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"
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4/28/11 4:33:28 PM#63
Originally posted by Swanea The problem, from what I gather, is that not even the warrior will be able to take all of the damage. Warriors and Guardians will be able to take more damage than the other class, but playing them like a traditional tank will get you killed. The "tanks" job will be to keep the mob off everyone else. Which means crippling, slowing, and if necessary blocking. Just standing in one spot, from my understand, and absorbing the damage will get you killed. Same with someone permanently playing the healer role. Defensive skills cost more energy. Which means you will run out of energy quickly the more defensive skills you used, and there are no targetted heal skills. You have ground based AoE heals. Which means everyone needs to look out for everyone. One player goes down, other players have to step in and help control the mob while the downed player is revived. |
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4/28/11 4:54:46 PM#64
There are no player targeted heals, only aoe heals. There is no dedicated tank but support skills that can block and control. There will be no space in a dungeon for a player that thinks they can stand at the back and pew pew to their hearts content. If you aren't fully aware of what the mobs are doing (GW has fairly decent mob AI, I expect that to be improved in GW2) and what the players around you are doing you are going to be in trouble. Anet have spent a lot of time designing the visual effect of skills to give you an immediate visual idea of what that skill is doing and the area it affects, you're going to need to learn to read those visual clues, what they mean, how they will affect you and how you can exploit them. It's not going to be a case of over reliance on two members of the team to heal and control for you, everyone is going to need to learn to do both to some degree. It's going to make combat much more dynamic for everyone concerned, it's going to demand more involvement and awareness for everyone than most games that follow the holy trinity of tank, heal and dps currently do. It all sounds good to me :) |
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4/28/11 5:06:00 PM#65
Don't they still have 2 unrevealed character classes? At least according to the home page of the official site. So I wouldn't be counting your chickens just yet. Unless they made an official press realease stating that there wont be a main healing class PERIOD. And some how, I don't see that happening. Unless they make healing items so inexpensive that anyone can carry stacks of hundreds of potions, I don't even see how this is a practical idea. For PvE (Hardcore boss fights where 1 or 2 hits means death) or PvP (Think you can survive 6 mages focous firing you at once?). But, we'll see. Sounds like the OP is jumping the gun though. Any proof in this pudding?
P.S: If someone already posted links containing proof. Sorry, but I didn't feel like reading 7 pages of potential troll bait and/or flame wars... |
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4/28/11 5:09:25 PM#66
Originally posted by maskedweasel one word, ENERGY http://www.killtenrats.com/2010/11/29/gw2-interview-on-energy-and-skills-pt-1/ although there is no more monk healbot, the support role still exists. This is another reason why the duration factor is to amorphous to determine. Players dedicated to support increase every other player’s duration of active play by running around and rezzing people or focusing on creature control and interrupts rather than damage. This helps everybody’s energy in the long run. ... Cartwright said that dungeons were more punishing on the (energy) resource end if players were not aware of the battlefield. They would be using more defensive skills, which would ultimately lead to energy exhaustion. He didn’t want to go in to dungeons too much because they were still balancing that content in terms of resource management (and everything else). But, the goal was to make it fun group-based content. ... Peters said that energy is like ammo in an first-person shooter. Players really don’t watch it most of the time, but during periods of heavy activity energy becomes an issue. Yet in Guild Wars 2, the more defensive a player is the more the resource is used. So a player rolling around like crazy will burn themselves out pretty quick. A skilled player using rolls very tactically would be fine.
yes, you can be the worst solo player and be energy starved not being able to use your skills but you call that fun ? |
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4/28/11 5:10:11 PM#67
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/ There we go :) |
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4/28/11 5:15:02 PM#68
Interesting, though it looks like based on their example of the Warriros "I will avenge you" rally skill; they just passed the batton to every other player class. Making it even easier to stay alive in combat. Well, be revived in combat, anyway xD. Neat idea though. Should be different. |
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4/28/11 5:16:28 PM#69
removed my "no dedicated healer" link - someone beat me to it :) |
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4/28/11 5:18:08 PM#70
@Swanea You won't have people complaining about not getting healed enough, no. There are two very important reasons for this!
That second one is incredibly important. You can drop an area of effect heal, but you can't target someoen with a heal. If someone doesn't get healed then it's their own fault for not walking into an area of effect heal or healing themselves with their own self-heal ability. They can't blame other people since healing is the job of no one, people can drop heals, but healing is a very fire and foreget element.
When dealing with the rest of your post regarding the trinity, I'll pick out three specific classes. One usually meant for tanking (the Warrior), one usually designed for DPS (the Elementalist), and one usually designed for protection (the Guardian). And in each case I'll show you why your assumptions are incorrect, and why you're not seeing how Guild Wars 2 works. Just give me a chance to explain this to you.
You won't have classes that are better at healing. There is one very important reason for this!
The demo showed us instances where a warrior was AoE healing as competently as a Guardian, or an Elementalist, and none of these are dedicated healers. The Warrior got a banner which they could drop wherever they wanted, for example, and the Elementalist had a water attunement that could be used for AoE healing. Again, all examples are AoE healing, there is no direct-target healing in the game. At all.
You won't have classes that are better at crowd control. There is one very important reason for this!
For example, an Elementalist can form a stone shield around people, or do an earthquake which can knock foes over.
A Guardian can knock foes with a force blast, or form a protective barrier around people.
A warrior can block with his shield, or use his hammer to knock enemies over.
What does this all add up to? There is no holy trinity in the game. I'm sorry but your opinion and any opinion is irrelevant versus the facts as we've seen them in the demo. We can all assume, guess, ooh, and ahh over things, but the only facts we've been presented with are in the demo. And everything I've talked about is in the demo. Just pull up some videos and watch them for yourself. No one will do a direct-target heal, everyone will be able to crowd control to the same effect, and everyone will also be able to DPS to the same effect. This destroys the trinity, and that's a fact, not an opinion.
(Basically, what I'm saying here is that all classes can do the same thing, yes, just slightly differently and in a balanced way. I'll give you an example of this, but it'll be speculation, I can't speak factually here. A Gaurdian's shield, for example, may be multidirectional but only do a per centage of damage reduction, whereas a Warrior's shield will be fixed direction, but it'll stop all damage. Therefore you could likely stack a Warrior on top of a Guardian to get an even better defence. What you'll find is that people will switch roles fluidly as they need to in the game, because they can do that, now. In trinity MMORPGs, they can't. The only time WoW had this was when truly hybridised druids existed, when they did, and druids used to love switching roles on teh fly. See what I'm getting at?)
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4/28/11 5:36:27 PM#71
Originally posted by twodayslate LOL someone obviously hasn't played any Monster hunter games before. Its about strategy timing and not getting greedy, sure its gets easier once you recognize the pattern. But in no way shape or form is it a mindless zergfest. |
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4/28/11 5:38:51 PM#72
I hear you, but Kyleran does have a point. Some people aren't good at shooters. Those people are still able to complete in many MMORPGs where skill matters less. Those people are coming to play GW2 in droves.
This could feasibly happen of those people ^^ complain enough. Hopefully Anet can find a way to please both crowds without segregating them too much. It would be nice for them to be able to work together.
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4/28/11 6:46:59 PM#73
I think this thread really encapsulates a major problem with the industry. Anybody who tries to look forward and tries to look at how to do things differently (I.E removing the idea of a class in favor of creating characters) is immediately detracted as someone who is just trying to destroy these games and turn them into mindless
Well I'll let you in on a little secret. The trinity, as it is right now, is still reliant on zergfest and tankfesting galore. We're not talking about removing boss mechanics....how anyone is jumping to that conclusion is beyond me. If anything, we're talking about making paying attention to what a boss is doing far more important. The vast majority of modern boss mechanics are balanced around people (mostly healers) having a specific range of power. Once people far, far outreach this range then you can usually just faceroll through those same boss mechanics.
Right now you still zerg out on PvE content, it's just with DPS. Ranged dps classes have always had it easy and it's remarkably easy to fall asleep playing a ranged dps. Melee dps usually get the shaft in boss mechanics and if your healers have bad reaction times or you don't have enough of them then you get screwed. Considering most current encounters are balanced around needing specific numbers of healers/tanks you run into a situation where you start building raid groups where you always have specific healers and tanks, but dps is...it's dps, it mostly doesn't matter. However, I have seen raids not even happen because just ONE healer and ONE tank happened to not be around.
Does it make sense to screw over 23 (or more) other people just because TWO people can't show up?
Trying to have back-ups doesn't usually work unless your guild builds a second raid group and finding people to organize these things can be hard.....mostly because your organizers are busy with the primary raid group. The reason for this is simple: Your back-ups probably aren't going to keep up in terms of gear with your main healers so having them usually doesn't mean anything.
Removing the necessity for specific classes isn't going to increase the zerg-factor because it's already there in spades. All it's going to do is just change what the horde of players looks like. Really, all most of the detractors are worried about is playing games that are a little more difficult, but they don't want to admit it.
PS The only real solution to the problems I bring up is to do what WoW did with the whole emblem thing. I never liked the idea and I'm completely tired of devs basically giving away gear. Especially when they keep upgrading what gear you can get in this manner and they can make a complete joke of someone who spent far more time raiding for worse gear. Emblems themselves aren't a bad idea.....just keep them to dropping in raids only so everybody who goes can at least get something. |
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4/28/11 7:14:38 PM#74
Regarding healing, I see it like this: "healing" is ultimately a means to keep one or more people alive. That is the fundamental purpose of it. What ANET is doing is making "keeping players alive" a more dynamic venture. Unlike many other MMO's, things like skill disruption, run-speed reduction, damage mitigation, buffs and enchantments, etc., etc., are not just things that make the dedicated life-restorer's job a little easier; they can actually work as viable alternatives to life-restoration.
They're also allowing more classes to effectively fulfill the role of "death-preventer", negating the need to wait for the one particular class that can do it effectively before you can enter a dungeon, as well as making it so that no matter what class you choose to play, you will not be forced into that one particular role for any extended period of time; you may be a supporter for one particular dungeon, but you could easily be DPS the next, and that's assuming you're group agrees ahead of time to assign different people with different roles. You and everyone else can easily change your roles mid-dungeon/battle dynamically based on what's needed at any given moment. |
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4/28/11 7:31:11 PM#75
I guess you played some poorly balanced MMOs then. A healer is always a great help sure, but we were able to group just fine without one. |
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4/28/11 7:37:02 PM#76
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4/28/11 8:03:16 PM#77
Originally posted by EvilGeek In DAoC you could group together just fine without a healer and kill stuff. If you wanted to take on raid content, well it wasn't JUST the healer you needed, you needed a little of everything. In normal dungeon content just blazing through Mithra of Keltoi you could have a ton of tanks and someone with PBT, or some paladins with heal chants, a friar, an ice wizard, whatever. |
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4/28/11 8:19:21 PM#78
Hopefully they are able to keep some mechanics in the game which make the classes unique. However they have to achieve it without giving anyone class the ability to restore health or shield people over others...or that will become the "healer".
I will have to play each class on my own to decide if they truly got rid of the healer role.......
As for those people who hate healers......you should try playing one. It really is one of those classes that is not very much fun to play solo but when you meet up with people who hate healers because they need them........it's the same for the healer in most cases. They need people to group with, except they pretty much always take the blame......which is why very few healers will put up with it at a certain point.
I like to play a good mix of all the classes in MMOs, so it's possible to get an all encompassing look at the team versus straight out blaming the healer. |
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4/28/11 8:20:11 PM#79
Hmm so basically every class accomplishes the same thing, ever class IS healer, DPS, Tank, Guardian, CC, all rolled into one? Only difference is the name of class, the armor (appearance), some animations? OK, how I understood it was going to be *IS* how it is going to be... Some Players have been waiting for this, and are going to love it. Some Players will see this as ... well... anything but correct design and say no. Myself, I am not interested in this at all. I guess I am an old fashioned mmo gamer, I actually prefer the trinity to this.... but then I am usually the guardian/tank, or the healer, sometimes I am lucky and get to dps (lotro hunter), but I do not make it a habit of complaining if our group runs into trouble... I just learn from the experience and try to do it better next time. If I remember right that method or "philosophy of gameplay" was taught to me by my guildmates in DAoC years ago. It's not about me, it's about the Group and working together to achieve a goal. Perhaps GW2 will still have this to a degree but where is the uniqueness of classes? Where is the strengths and weaknesses? Where is the need to group if everyone is the same? Is it just a "strength in numbers" design equation? I guess the first MMO defines us more than I care to admit so perhaps that is why I fail to appreciate GW2's design like some of you do. For those that like this mmo class design, have fun with it by all means and please let us know here how it works out. |
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4/28/11 8:26:58 PM#80
Originally posted by xcarnifex http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/warrior/ Adrenaline, banners and stances for Warriors. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/elementalist/ Attunement and conjure spells for Elementalists. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/ranger/ Spirits and pets for Rangers. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/necromancer/ Life force, death shroud and minions for Necros. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/ Initiative, stealth and shadowsteps for Thiefs. http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/guardian/ Virtues, spirit weapons and wards for Guardians. |
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