Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by chrisel

My first month in DFO was absolutely fantastic. Then the "grind wall" hit me. I felt like being in a swamp, up to the neck in "gank trouble". It was under no sircumstance a situation I wanted to be within for another 5 months to hit the "competetive level" so I left. I would go back instantly if I knew that with only a few more weeks of hardcore gaming would end me up being competetive. Unfortunately that is far away from the situation. Even with the new impleted meditation system, it takes forever.

And now we arent even talking about the insane grind it takes on tradeskills.... Jeez man, I get exhausted just by thinking of all that DFO demands from me as a player to be able to compete. And no, I do not belive the community is "steadily growing". I do belive that DFO subs are stable, but most of all I ever met, had 2 or even more accounts just to cope especially with the tradeskills. Me, ended quickly up after I started it with 3 full accounts, and had plan for a 4th, just to speed up some tradeskill processes. Insane. I agree. Worthless insanity.

Thank you, but no thank you. DFO is (unfortunately) definately a "Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Work".

 I think youve pointed out the biggest problem im darkfall. The guys at the top of the pyramid want to keep their advantage in fights so they can plaster "noobs" with impunity,

If they really wanted a challenge theyd be lookin for a more even playing field.

I wouldn't listen to this guy at all.

 

He hasn't even played long enough to know. He thinks that Planetside is a bigger rush than Darkfall.

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Grind has been reduced quite a bit since Launch, and was reduced again recently. Meditation has reduced it even further. That said, you still have to get every skill in the game to be on a good competitive field, and you will have to macro a lot of your spells up (mostly Buffs, Debuffs and other spells that are not meant for damage like WoF, Begone, etc). But if that doesn't bother you, and you enjoyed DarkFall, go ahead and resub. Perhaps you'll find the current "grind" to be acceptable and keep playing.

And this guy has been complaining about the game for as long as I remember while I have been having fun playing it.

unfortunately.. unless DFO wishes to remain the least subscribed to PVP MMO ever.. it needs to learn a few lessons from games like Planetside.. granted SOE really messed the game up with its dodgy expansions.. but if theres one thing it did well.. it was the PVP..  the current players might be able to put up with the afk grind the game needs.. but the majority of the online PVP community isnt.. which is why their not playing DFO.. as a game mechanic.. it isnt working.. time to fix it.

Originally posted by Phry

unfortunately.. unless DFO wishes to remain the least subscribed to PVP MMO ever.. it needs to learn a few lessons from games like Planetside.. granted SOE really messed the game up with its dodgy expansions.. but if theres one thing it did well.. it was the PVP..  the current players might be able to put up with the afk grind the game needs.. but the majority of the online PVP community isnt.. which is why their not playing DFO.. as a game mechanic.. it isnt working.. time to fix it.

Planetside will not stir your emotions like Darkfall will. Planetside is not a risk vs reward game and is not capible of stirring emotions any more than the best FPS out there can. Darkfall's PVP is a lot funner because there are probably 20 times more options at least and it is faster-paced with bunny hopping where the winner takes all. You are missing out in the funnest MMORPG and FPS game in existence. Even the PVE is a dozen times funner than other MMORPGs as long as you have your controls down.

I understand that it is difficult to configure your controls and get used to it at first but it is worth it. Contact anyone who actually plays the game and I am sure that they will show you some pointers with using macros not to AFK grind (its not needed anymore at all) but to help setup your controls. Its not needed but definitely helps make it my favorite game.

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Planetside will not stir your emotions like Darkfall will.

You obviously never played Planetside when it was new.

Originally posted by Majinash

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Planetside will not stir your emotions like Darkfall will.

You obviously never played Planetside when it was new.

 Or ever admitted someone else might be right on some level.

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious
 

I understand that it is difficult to configure your controls and get used to it at first but it is worth it. Contact anyone who actually plays the game and I am sure that they will show you some pointers with using macros not to AFK grind (its not needed anymore at all) but to help setup your controls. Its not needed but definitely helps make it my favorite game.

i find it funny how you support scripts, but not macroing or am i reading something wrong?

and what i highlighed is just as correct saying it before meditation was added, you dont need to macro but it helps and you avoid many boring hours depending on how far you wanna go...

now that meditations here they still self buffs, debuff's, begone, stormblast, telekeniss, launch, confusion, come hither and depending on how far you wanna go theys many more

and non damgedeing spells only lvls 2x faster on mobs then players while damgeding spells

Originally posted by Arcken

 Or ever admitted someone else might be right on some level.

Was this aimed at myself or Sid?

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

 

 

 

 Im not a fan of WoW myself, however its a completely correct statement when I say for more people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall, theres no arguing that.

WoW does have more numbers but you make a spurious correlation.

 

Sub numbers do not = quality product or game.

 Now you are just arguing with yourself. I did not say sub numbers = quality, you did, I said "More people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall.

You cannot argue my point because it is the truth.

You are losing the context of what you said. You compared sub numbers as 'speaking the truth' to the quality of a game. You were measuring a games quality by sub numbers. You inferred this in a prior post. Thus, I said you're making a spurious correlation by implying that sub numbers equate to quality product. Remember what you write dude.

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Grind has been reduced quite a bit since Launch, and was reduced again recently. Meditation has reduced it even further. That said, you still have to get every skill in the game to be on a good competitive field, and you will have to macro a lot of your spells up (mostly Buffs, Debuffs and other spells that are not meant for damage like WoF, Begone, etc). But if that doesn't bother you, and you enjoyed DarkFall, go ahead and resub. Perhaps you'll find the current "grind" to be acceptable and keep playing.

And this guy has been complaining about the game for as long as I remember while I have been having fun playing it.

Yep, you're right. I've been complaining about the game since Launch and played for almost 2 years. Not sure if you were there at Launch or slightly before, because Aventurine had promised us a Sandbox MMORPG with FFA PvP Full Loot, meaningful choices, consequences, player-skill above all else, no grind, a PvP focused experience, etc.

Like many other players and ex-players, I'm still waiting for the Sandbox part. I'm still waiting for the meaningful choices and consequences, because the current state has none. I'm still waiting for the skill-system to be changed so that Player-Skills are the determining factor of an outcome, and not the amount of time spent macro'ing your skills up. I myself have a maxed character and I prefer Challenging encounters where my skills are truly put to test, than to win 1v10 encounters because I'm maxed. I'm still waiting for the PvP focused experience also, because DarkFall is a PvE-based with PvP, the amount of time spent grinding and farming monsters is outrageous for a so-called PvP MMORPG. I'm still waiting for AV to address all those issues so I can finally get back and enjoy the game as much as I did back around Launch, where players were all on equal-ground and encounters were actually challenging.

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

WoW does have more numbers but you make a spurious correlation.

 

Sub numbers do not = quality product or game.

 Now you are just arguing with yourself. I did not say sub numbers = quality, you did, I said "More people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall.

You cannot argue my point because it is the truth.

You are losing the context of what you said. You compared sub numbers as 'speaking the truth' to the quality of a game. You were measuring a games quality by sub numbers. You inferred this in a prior post. Thus, I said you're making a spurious correlation by implying that sub numbers equate to quality product. Remember what you write dude.

Well, sub numbers *do* equate to the quality of a product. If the product was bad, people wouldn't play it, and the opposite is also true, if the product is good people will play it. WoW is a great game, it has 10-12 millions subs. Sure you might agree or disagree with how WoW is and plays, but people play it, a lot.  

Same goes for EVE. 350k+ Subs for a Niche MMORPG. Game is good, people play it.

DarkFall.....approximatively 7k subs, same niche as EVE but with Twitch-based combat. Population was rather high at Launch, population has greatly decreased since then. Game is not good, people don't play it.

But I'm not saying that because one game is not good, doesn't mean that some players can't enjoy it. But if you've lost over half of your playerbase, which in DarkFall's case was caused by the myriad of issues, and you haven't been able to regain those players who, for many, are still looking at DarkFall websites or blog looking for the update that will make them resub, well can't really say that Darkfall is a good game, yet.

I find it interesting that after all this time we are having the exact same argument with many of the same people. I recently came back to Darkfall after a long break because I wanted to see if the grind reduction really made a big difference. Indeed, it does seem much faster to advance my character and the meditation system is a very welcome addition.

Did AV 'fix' the grind though? Absolutely not. Even after all their recent reductions, it STILL takes an insanely long time to advance a character to a level competitive with veterans. It still requires months and months of incredibly monotonous and repetitive tasks get all of the required skills and stats to where they need to be. I'm trying very very hard not to get bored and burnt out again because I want SO BADLY to experience the end-game PvP, but I fear I am still not going to make it. I have a long way to go before my clan suggests that I move to one of our holdings without being mercilessly ganked constantly. They say that I should stay near the NPC towns until I am more advanced, but it is quite simply just too boring during this point and there are too few people around me playing at a similar skill/stat level. It feels like a ghost town here and solo-hunting the same mob spawns for several more months while also attended macro-grinding spells just does not sound entertaining AT ALL.

Regardless of how much you love it, I think it is hard to disagree that the game should not be like this. It should be fun the entire way through. Newer players should NOT be required to endure such incredibly tedious and boring "game" play for so long just to reach the part of the game that we are all playing Darkfall to experience in the first place. It is just mind-boggling that AV apparently doesn't understand this... 

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

WoW does have more numbers but you make a spurious correlation.

 

Sub numbers do not = quality product or game.

 Now you are just arguing with yourself. I did not say sub numbers = quality, you did, I said "More people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall.

You cannot argue my point because it is the truth.

You are losing the context of what you said. You compared sub numbers as 'speaking the truth' to the quality of a game. You were measuring a games quality by sub numbers. You inferred this in a prior post. Thus, I said you're making a spurious correlation by implying that sub numbers equate to quality product. Remember what you write dude.

Well, sub numbers *do* equate to the quality of a product. If the product was bad, people wouldn't play it, and the opposite is also true, if the product is good people will play it. WoW is a great game, it has 10-12 millions subs. Sure you might agree or disagree with how WoW is and plays, but people play it, a lot.  

Same goes for EVE. 350k+ Subs for a Niche MMORPG. Game is good, people play it.

DarkFall.....approximatively 7k subs, same niche as EVE but with Twitch-based combat. Population was rather high at Launch, population has greatly decreased since then. Game is not good, people don't play it.

 

But I'm not saying that because one game is not good, doesn't mean that some players can't enjoy it. But if you've lost over half of your playerbase, which in DarkFall's case was caused by the myriad of issues, and you haven't been able to regain those players who, for many, are still looking at DarkFall websites or blog looking for the update that will make them resub, well can't really say that Darkfall is a good game, yet.

It's a different argument saying that subs were high but decreased.

People buy bad products because they think they are good a lot. Again, you can't make the comparison that people buy a product because IT IS good. They buy it because they THINK it's good and going to get their money's worth.

Originally posted by Anubisan

I find it interesting that after all this time we are having the exact same argument with many of the same people. I recently came back to Darkfall after a long break because I wanted to see if the grind reduction really made a big difference. Indeed, it does seem much faster to advance my character and the meditation system is a very welcome addition.

Did AV 'fix' the grind though? Absolutely not. Even after all their recent reductions, it STILL takes an insanely long time to advance a character to a level competitive with veterans. It still requires months and months of incredibly monotonous and repetitive tasks get all of the required skills and stats to where they need to be. I'm trying very very hard not to get bored and burnt out again because I want SO BADLY to experience the end-game PvP, but I fear I am still not going to make it. I have a long way to go before my clan suggests that I move to one of our holdings without being mercilessly ganked constantly. They say that I should stay near the NPC towns until I am more advanced, but it is quite simply just too boring during this point and there are too few people around me playing at a similar skill/stat level. It feels like a ghost town here and solo-hunting the same mob spawns for several more months while also attended macro-grinding spells just does not sound entertaining AT ALL.

Regardless of how much you love it, I think it is hard to disagree that the game should not be like this. It should be fun the entire way through. Newer players should NOT be required to endure such incredibly tedious and boring "game" play for so long just to reach the part of the game that we are all playing Darkfall to experience in the first place. It is just mind-boggling that AV apparently doesn't understand this... 

Your clan sounds retarted dude. My clan is very noob friendly and we try to take them along to do everything we do. Your clan seems to subscribe to the template that you need such and such skills to compete, that is faultly logic. They probably just don't want to carry the burden of teaching you. My suggestion? Find a new clan.

Edit* It's not AV's fault your clan tells you to seclude yourself.  It's the communities culture. They believe only maxed chars can compete and that you need to keep yourself hidden until ready. Don't be afraid to make mistakes or get ganked. It's all part of the fun and learning.

While the grind has been reduced and is still there, the OP obviously needs to go play Black Ops and leave not just DarkFall but all RPG's alone. If you're not comfortable with the fact that you can't get 100 in a skill and 100 in it's subskill (he was referencing Archery) in 3 DAYS then you aren't suited to play any kind of RPG, which inherently is tied to a "time invested = power" theme.

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

 

 

 

 Im not a fan of WoW myself, however its a completely correct statement when I say for more people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall, theres no arguing that.

WoW does have more numbers but you make a spurious correlation.

 

Sub numbers do not = quality product or game.

 Now you are just arguing with yourself. I did not say sub numbers = quality, you did, I said "More people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall.

You cannot argue my point because it is the truth.

You are losing the context of what you said. You compared sub numbers as 'speaking the truth' to the quality of a game. You were measuring a games quality by sub numbers. You inferred this in a prior post. Thus, I said you're making a spurious correlation by implying that sub numbers equate to quality product. Remember what you write dude.

 wrong again sir, the inference was on your part. I said simply, and will do so again. "according to the subscription numbers, more people enjoy WoW than Darkfall."

I cannot get more plain than that. If you cant understand that, I dont know what to tell you.

again let me reiterate, Im not saying subs are a measure of quality.

However I will say if you spent less time trying to tell me what i was saying and actually read and comprehended what Im point blank trying to tell you in the simplest plainest words, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Originally posted by xanphia

It's a different argument saying that subs were high but decreased.

People buy bad products because they think they are good a lot. Again, you can't make the comparison that people buy a product because IT IS good. They buy it because they THINK it's good and going to get their money's worth.

But the subs in DarkFall were high for a good 6-9 months after Launch. Yes it lowered over time, but that wasn't because the game was necessarily bad (it was good), but because AV's handling of the game has just been mediocre. They've let AFK macro'ing go unpunished, they have not refunded players who have lost various things to hackers or AV-related issues, they've let exploits in for significant amount of time (They only finally fixed a bunch of mob exploit when CtS came out...which was in December, game had launched in February).

DarkFall was actually good at Launch. Clans joining with 30-50+ members, PvP everywhere constantly, epic large scale battles, etc. But the game became gradually worse as AVs were not addressing the issues, which has caused the population to dwindle down to it's current state. The product *was* good, people played it and loved it. Yes there were many issues, but players would've been able to wait a few months for AV to fix them, but only 2 years later does AV finally introduce changes to the Alignement System, and some Bank Changes so that Clans can decide if their banks are open to everyone or not. 2 years! 2 years and AV hasn't even introduced meaningful specialization yet, but they've introduced Fun Hulks. AV has been DarkFall's cancer, which in turn has made DarkFall into a bad game. The *core* DarkFall is fun, but AV are unable to work on it. EVE had the same issue at launch, the *core* was there but everything else was bad. Luckily, CCP managed to salvage it and turn it into a 350k+ subs game. But AV's not going to be able to do that, not in their ucrrent state.

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by xanphia

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

Originally posted by Arcken

Originally posted by Consensus

 

 

 

 Im not a fan of WoW myself, however its a completely correct statement when I say for more people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall, theres no arguing that.

WoW does have more numbers but you make a spurious correlation.

 

Sub numbers do not = quality product or game.

 Now you are just arguing with yourself. I did not say sub numbers = quality, you did, I said "More people enjoy WoW than enjoy Darkfall.

You cannot argue my point because it is the truth.

You are losing the context of what you said. You compared sub numbers as 'speaking the truth' to the quality of a game. You were measuring a games quality by sub numbers. You inferred this in a prior post. Thus, I said you're making a spurious correlation by implying that sub numbers equate to quality product. Remember what you write dude.

 wrong again sir, the inference was on your part. I said simply, and will do so again. "according to the subscription numbers, more people enjoy WoW than Darkfall."

I cannot get more plain than that. If you cant understand that, I dont know what to tell you.

again let me reiterate, Im not saying subs are a measure of quality.

However I will say if you spent less time trying to tell me what i was saying and actually read and comprehended what Im point blank trying to tell you in the simplest plainest words, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Ok, well here we go. I'll repost what you said.

Arken:  I would imagine being at everyone elses mercy while trying to attain the aforementioned fun is something most people dont care for.

Xan: So you say we can't make sweeping generalizations about how this is the best game on the market for PvP yet you're allowed to say most people don't care for this type of leveling system? Hm. Two way streets are fun, aren't they!

Arcken:  Darkfalls absymal sub numbers speak to the truth of my statement, no matter how much it galls you.

You were stating that DF's sub number speak the truth that no one likes to level up the way DF does, aka play the game. I'm exactly right. Even Realbigdeal, under me interpreted what you said that way. Stop trying to escape what you said and leave this forum. You obviously can't even follow your logic so why should anyone believe what you say about other things considering you're current track record with remembering what you said a few posts ago. Your memory regarding DF must be, as you say: "abysmal".

Well theres no arguing with someone who only sees what they want, so I guess you win.

either way, if grinding was the only problem darkfall had, it would probably have more than 7k in subs.

Originally posted by Arcken

Well theres no arguing with someone who only sees what they want, so I guess you win.

either way, if grinding was the only problem darkfall had, it would probably have more than 7k in subs.

AV released their sub numbers? Link.

Originally posted by Arcken

Well theres no arguing with someone who only sees what they want, so I guess you win.

either way, if grinding was the only problem darkfall had, it would probably have more than 7k in subs.

You might be able to argue better with people in the WoW forums. :] Haha had to take that swipe.

Anyway, I think the reason it has so little subs was due to the bad launch and generally huge hype it had. It was bound to let down lots of people and then losing in this game is really losing. Sometimes people do not want to work back to what they had. The taste of granduer and power is too much, so when they lose, they stay away. There's a very large cultural mindset in DF about losing. I do not think it's AV's fault, rather I don't think they expected the community to grow into what it is now.

Originally posted by Cecropia

Originally posted by Arcken

Well theres no arguing with someone who only sees what they want, so I guess you win.

either way, if grinding was the only problem darkfall had, it would probably have more than 7k in subs.

AV released their sub numbers? Link.

The new data is mostly based off Active Clan player numbers since inactive clans are being removed. It totals up to around 7k subs I think.