I dont blame blizzard I blame all the other companies that try so hard to be blizzard.

Originally posted by Arcken

@kalinis

I quit MMOs for the most part. Ive gone back to playing MUDs. The roleplaying is enforced the communities are more tightly knit with fewer players. The Gms constantly run events and interact with the players. You cant powerlevel your way through it, and people socialize constantly while theyre leveling, just like they did in the early days of MMOs.

Its not about "elitism" as you so succinctly put it, it about a frame of mind, and what you want out of your MMOs.

I respect your stance, even if you do not respect mine and are borderline disrespectful. Thats part difference between a lot of the old school players and the new school players.

 Been pondering returning to Gemstone IV or Dragonrealms myself. Though there are certain things that they do wrong that bother me. Or changes that they've made over the past twenty years that I don't agree with.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Meltdown

Isn't that the point people are trying to make though? The experience has changed significantly from what a lot of people learned to love. How about an analogy... cars are without a doubt better in all respects now, but the experience of the gas guzzling cars 20+ years ago just resonates so well with people its just not enjoyable to drive a 2011 ford focus after cruising around in that 1988 monte carlo. But no one is going to make a muscle car of the 80s, all we have is sitting around complaining about how they don't make things like they used to...

Actually, a few small companies do make cars and motorcycles like in the 80s.

The whole problems with MMOs in my opinion is not really that they aim more for casual players now. The problem is that it lost focus.

The original idea was to take the experience of playing a pen and paper RPG and make it in a massive computer game. But now is the idea to take any older MMO and make a copy with prettier graphics and possibly a few new features.

The soul of the early games were from pen and paper roleplaying, and we lost that. Instead we get something close to Diablo, we lost the RPG in MMORPG and that is sad.

I am not saying complicated games are better than simple games. I am not saying games aimed for a few players are better than games for many. I am however saying that old games tried to recreate a living world like P&P games do, and that is something were the modern MMOs fails badly.

Modern MMOs need to reconnect to the basics again. They should feel like more than just a game.

That does not mean we need to take away all practical ideas, like auctionhouses and similar. What is needed is to create the feeling of a living breathing world, and it should actually be easier today with modern graphics.

We should send a copy of the P&P game Runequest, Warhammer fantasy RPG or ARS magica to the MMO developers instead of complaining how simple the games have become.

      Exactly.

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

The soul of the early games were from pen and paper roleplaying, and we lost that. Instead we get something close to Diablo, we lost the RPG in MMORPG and that is sad.

I am not saying complicated games are better than simple games. I am not saying games aimed for a few players are better than games for many. I am however saying that old games tried to recreate a living world like P&P games do, and that is something were the modern MMOs fails badly.

What living world? Take EQ has an example. All you do is grind mobs, and boss for gear. Sure, you do it with other people but that is no better or worse than MMOs today. At least we have BETTER combat mechanics, better features today.

And getting something close to Diablo is a good thing. That is one of the best game ever made.

It wasn't that early games were necessarily "better" it was the promise of future worlds that they created in the minds of players.

"If UO is this amazing and fun imagine what MMOs will be like in 10 years!"

The genre just didn't seem to follow the evolutionary path that many thought was integral to the core of those early gaming worlds.

Yes, Diablo is a fun game. So is Tetris.

Originally posted by MuffinStump

It wasn't that early games were necessarily "better" it was the promise of future worlds that they created in the minds of players.

"If UO is this amazing and fun imagine what MMOs will be like in 10 years!"

The genre just didn't seem to follow the evolutionary path that many thought was integral to the core of those early gaming worlds.

Yes, Diablo is a fun game. So is Tetris.

Great post. I think you hit the nail on the head.

People seem to have been deeply inspired by the early mmos, and with good reason. It's just sad to see that after all this time, this is where we ended up.

I like to think that we're going through an unfortunately long period of stagnation in the genre, and that in 2 or 3 year's time we'll see a studio capitalize on the rather ripe field that has presented itself.

The opportunity is there, let's see if anyone is willing to take the chance.

Agreed: "fun fun teehee" games like Diablo are entertaining, but when it comes to mmos; we've barely scratched the surface. This genre is capable of so much more.

Originally posted by dismantled

I dont blame blizzard I blame all the other companies that try so hard to be blizzard.

Hear, hear.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Yep, you pretty much summed up exactly how I feel about it OP.

 

But look on the plus side, at least we have cash shops now..

That sir, was NOT funny!

Originally posted by UsualSuspect

The OP has echoed my thoughts exactly. Modern MMO's really are a joke, they have so little substance or difficulty that half the time I'm falling asleep while playing them, the level of involvement is that low. I'm not kidding - sometimes I struggle to keep my eyes open! Yet the people into these modern MMO's seem to love them and I really can't understand why - the only reason must be that they simply don't know any different. I read posts from some of them saying, "I tried EQ and it sucked because of X.", and it's not that EQ is bad, they're simply used to a new style of gameplay and if a game doesn't have all those 'easy mode' additions then they can't deal with it. And so they go back to WoW, claiming it to be the best MMO ever.

I fell asleep tanking twins in WoW's ToC once. I was doing fine aside from the fact I had kited my twin across the room + snoring on vent.

IDK that it's fair to say casuals have ruined it, but people more interested in other things than MMOs still wanting a fair shot at equality. I mean it's silly. Half-assed commitment should never get the gains of die-hard dedication, but they do. It would be kind of like like the NFL shortening the field and going to a tag system so that less committed players could play. 

There's football leagues for average adults, as well as college and pro levels of many sports, but video games are not sports and most intelligent "comparisons" lack any basis. Anyone with the money to buy the box and subscribe is another player, on the *same* level as a hardcore player of any game. Wherein the game *is* supposed to facilitate ways to keep things for  PvP players and  PvE players' content fair and balanced between both these groups, and not create huge entry barriers. Older MMOs faltered because newer games *ARE* more attractive, having a chance to "not miss the boat" on a new game is a huge pull on many players. It's not even just time and age, There is a clear cut difference in the types of games MMO genre loving players find, and toa ratio at least ten times more people prefer the themepark preplanned paths with levels. You know what? THAT'S FINE.

It was never really a dream genre, just one that once nobody knew what to do exactly or how to balance things perfectly. A lot of guesswork with Innovation because there were so few established norms with a lot of people not able to play due to lack of internet connectivity or speed.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by AcmeGamer

The soul of the early games were from pen and paper roleplaying, and we lost that. Instead we get something close to Diablo, we lost the RPG in MMORPG and that is sad.

I am not saying complicated games are better than simple games. I am not saying games aimed for a few players are better than games for many. I am however saying that old games tried to recreate a living world like P&P games do, and that is something were the modern MMOs fails badly.

What living world? Take EQ has an example. All you do is grind mobs, and boss for gear. Sure, you do it with other people but that is no better or worse than MMOs today. At least we have BETTER combat mechanics, better features today.

And getting something close to Diablo is a good thing. That is one of the best game ever made.

      One other thing to consider is that the mindset and social interaction of the players as well was superior. Read some of the previous remarks about the players of todays mmorpgs and you can quite clearly see that the newer players to the genre approach the game and other players differently. There is a much bigger aspect of rude behavior, instant demand of your time and a short fuse to anything you do wrong or are preceived to have done wrong.

  Part of that change I lay at the feet of the games "not" requiring team work at times. Team work is given grudginly most of the time. Many aspects of todays games mechanics are much much better then the previous games I will not disagree with that at all. The dumbing down of the challenges, the removal of risk/reward etc brought to the games players with the above issues.

  That said there have always been snipes in games but you know 10 or 20 years ago those players were a small minority, no the norm. Why? Because they wandered off or changed their ways because they couldn't get to far with out others. Even someone like me who tended to be a soloist/explorer did the social thing. I was proud of the things I could pull off solo and not needing to bothers others often but I did love to help others if asked. Now a days I dont like to help others they tend to be pushy, rude, whiney, verbally abusive etc. Interaction? Why thats blind invites and constant whispers of "Come help me now!" 

  So part of the whole immersion/living world concept is based on the players, and the players are rude, demanding, twits far to often. Why do you think that many of these games have a tendency to have a shortage of those who will do tanking or healing? Those two classes catch the most verbal abuse. From those by the way who tend to not really know their own classes job let alone the tank or healers job. lol

Originally posted by kakasaki

"Nostalgia is a funny thing that way, we’re likely to disproportionately like the first things we get into. Your high school girlfriend was always the best one, the shows you watched as a kid were better than the crap on now, and the ham sandwich you had yesterday was better than the one today. "

 

I think many complaining about the "downfall" of modern MMOs are suffering from a severe case of nostalgia. We tend to look back at games we played when younger as some perfect creations and some holy grail for modern games should aspire to be. And like all nostalgia, it is often an idolized, romanticized view of the past often filtered through rose colored glasses...

 

Let's face it folks. Things change and evolve. Old style games were created for a niche market of "hardcore" gamers with lots (and I mean lots) of time on their hands. Hell, I remember marathon 18 hours Shadowbane sessions just guarding our tree or waiting for a bane to pop... Anyway, the point is, MMOs have gone mainstream. They now have to cater to a wider group of consumers. Consumers whose average age is higher than it was a decade or so ago. MMO consumers have jobs, families and other responsibilities and less time to "play".  Gaming companies cater to that market and you have the current offering of MMOs. Good? Bad? I say neither. It is just the way the genre has evolved...

 

And let's face it all my "hard core" friends. If there was such a demand for steep learning curve, brutal PvP with harsh consequences MMOs out there, the market would have followed. I mean, look at the latest "hard-core" offerings: MO? Xsyon? Not doing exactly well are they? DF seems to be faring better but still nothing like tens of thousands of users now is it?

The nostalgia excuse is a sloppy cop out at best. Yes, there are some instances where it is a contributer to perception, but it isn't as powerful in it's deception of one's memories and so many people make it out to be.

Simply put, if the games of old weren't enjoyable, we wouldn't be fondly remembering them at all. I remember playing several games from 10-15 years ago, and I can honestly say the ones that truly were awful I still think are awful. The games that I thought were great, I still load up, play, and still enjoy them. Yup, that's right. The original Fallouts, X-coms, master of magic, Master of Orion, etc, I still play them and still enjoy doing so.

Now see, I'd probably still be playing Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies to this day, if it weren't for the fact that they simply aren't the same game anymore. They've been changed by their developers to be more wow-esque in an (failed) attempt to appeal to a broader audience. Which ironically is probably what ended up driving most of the players away far more quickly than if they'd just stayed the course with their original design philosophy.

So while nostalgia can influence one's perception, it doesn't dictate it. It also certainly doesn't make something that was genuinely bad seem amazing years after the fact. The reason why so many people praise the older games is because they were genuinely great in their core design, despite having superficial issues. The issue that many of us have with the newest MMOs is that on a superficial level they seem fine, but their core design is rotten.

As per the whole 'well if people want them so much why don't they play the ones out there now' excuse... seriously, come on. Mortal Online is plagued with poor administration and coding, far worse than any of the older games were back in the day. Xyson also suffers from similar issues. Mortal Online is doing decently, but it's still only niche because it is PvP based (Not all oldschool gamers want hardcore PvP, or any PvP at all for that matter). You did forget the biggest one though, Eve. It's doing well, and it does have a few  hundred thousand users.

The problem isn't that there's no demand for MMOs truer to the roots of traditional MMOs. It's that no one is willing to put in the effort to make one of decent quality. But I guess that's just a symptom of capitalism. Why make someone that they think only appeals to a subset, when they can spend about the same to appeal to the masses.

I hate to say it, but I totally agree with this post. WoW was the last real MMO I played, I stopped at Burning Crusade - heck, I didn't want to play BC when it came out because I was really upset by the way they pushed the lore. I'm a hardcore gamer when it comes to it, in all aspects from roleplay to PvP.

One night at home, I told my wife I wanted a new game. She said "Ok." because I hadn't bought one in a long, long time. So I decided to take the plunge - without any real background work - and get Rift. WOW I was floored by this total ripoff of a game. I felt like I was playing WoW again, on even easier mode and with less storyline! The invasions were cool, that's all, that's it. Everything else just stupidified me. No death penalty when there are healers everywhere, the world is small with instant portals to every zone, and hitting max level in 2 or 3 weeks without having to play very hard? I don't see the poor game going very far, even if the developers are trying to listen.

I'll stop ranting now, sorry, this forum gave me an outlet to, heh. But yeah, sadly Asheron's Call on Darktide was the last game that offered me any kind of challenge. The threat of someone always out there that could off me at any time and take my two or three most valuable items made dying something to always be avoided. I look forward to the day when a game comes out that is incredibly immersive in all aspects, and where there are rewards as great as the risks. I'm not afraid of perma-death on a character, or forever losing some pieces of gear if I don't take care of them. What kills me are the games made for 6-8 year olds, the kind that take little to no brain power to play and are a button mashing orgy of stupidity based on grinding out gear instead of increasing a fantasy character's overall ability to pick themselves up off the road after being trashed by an invasion crushing the town, leaving them with nothing but rags and  yet still taking down enemies with a freaking branch or something.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by kakasaki

"Nostalgia is a funny thing that way, we’re likely to disproportionately like the first things we get into. Your high school girlfriend was always the best one, the shows you watched as a kid were better than the crap on now, and the ham sandwich you had yesterday was better than the one today. "

 

I think many complaining about the "downfall" of modern MMOs are suffering from a severe case of nostalgia. We tend to look back at games we played when younger as some perfect creations and some holy grail for modern games should aspire to be. And like all nostalgia, it is often an idolized, romanticized view of the past often filtered through rose colored glasses...

 

Let's face it folks. Things change and evolve. Old style games were created for a niche market of "hardcore" gamers with lots (and I mean lots) of time on their hands. Hell, I remember marathon 18 hours Shadowbane sessions just guarding our tree or waiting for a bane to pop... Anyway, the point is, MMOs have gone mainstream. They now have to cater to a wider group of consumers. Consumers whose average age is higher than it was a decade or so ago. MMO consumers have jobs, families and other responsibilities and less time to "play".  Gaming companies cater to that market and you have the current offering of MMOs. Good? Bad? I say neither. It is just the way the genre has evolved...

 

And let's face it all my "hard core" friends. If there was such a demand for steep learning curve, brutal PvP with harsh consequences MMOs out there, the market would have followed. I mean, look at the latest "hard-core" offerings: MO? Xsyon? Not doing exactly well are they? DF seems to be faring better but still nothing like tens of thousands of users now is it?

The nostalgia excuse is a sloppy cop out at best. Yes, there are some instances where it is a contributer to perception, but it isn't as powerful in it's deception of one's memories and so many people make it out to be.

Simply put, if the games of old weren't enjoyable, we wouldn't be fondly remembering them at all. I remember playing several games from 10-15 years ago, and I can honestly say the ones that truly were awful I still think are awful. The games that I thought were great, I still load up, play, and still enjoy them. Yup, that's right. The original Fallouts, X-coms, master of magic, Master of Orion, etc, I still play them and still enjoy doing so.

Now see, I'd probably still be playing Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies to this day, if it weren't for the fact that they simply aren't the same game anymore. They've been changed by their developers to be more wow-esque in an (failed) attempt to appeal to a broader audience. Which ironically is probably what ended up driving most of the players away far more quickly than if they'd just stayed the course with their original design philosophy.

So while nostalgia can influence one's perception, it doesn't dictate it. It also certainly doesn't make something that was genuinely bad seem amazing years after the fact. The reason why so many people praise the older games is because they were genuinely great in their core design, despite having superficial issues. The issue that many of us have with the newest MMOs is that on a superficial level they seem fine, but their core design is rotten.

As per the whole 'well if people want them so much why don't they play the ones out there now' excuse... seriously, come on. Mortal Online is plagued with poor administration and coding, far worse than any of the older games were back in the day. Xyson also suffers from similar issues. Mortal Online is doing decently, but it's still only niche because it is PvP based (Not all oldschool gamers want hardcore PvP, or any PvP at all for that matter). You did forget the biggest one though, Eve. It's doing well, and it does have a few  hundred thousand users.

The problem isn't that there's no demand for MMOs truer to the roots of traditional MMOs. It's that no one is willing to put in the effort to make one of decent quality. But I guess that's just a symptom of capitalism. Why make someone that they think only appeals to a subset, when they can spend about the same to appeal to the masses.

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by Ceridith
...

You may deny it but nostalgia does play a big part in people's perceptions.  Regardless of how badly made they are, MO and Xsyon do seem to offer what the "old school" players seem to want and yet those titles still languish with low population numbers. Maybe the big development studios have done their market research and realize there is no big demand for what small segments of the gaming community want...

 

And EvE is a completely different kind of MMO that has done extremely well for itself in the niche it made for itself (or some would say found). And even EvE is not FFA PvP...

 

I never denied that nostaligia effects people's perceptions. In fact, I expressly stated that nostalgia does have some influence. What I was saying rather, is that nostalgia doesn't have nearly the effect some people think it does. A game that is truly flawed or bad, is still flawed and bad. No amount of nostalgia is going to change my perception of the games I played years ago that truly were bad games. In the same line of thought, there wouldn't be anything to be nostalgic about if there wasn't anything good to remember.

MO and Xyson suffer from lower populations for two reasons. First they're not the highest level of quality, in part because they developed by indie studies with more limited budgets. Secondly, because they're far more niche than the original oldschool MMOs were.

Ultima Online had FFA PvP originally, but it wasn't meant to be about FFA PvP. Certain players turned it into that, and of course, many other players didn't like what was widely perceived as abuse of the open ruleset, which was why non-PvP territory was added to the game. it was the subset of players who salvated at the thought of FFA PvP who jump into games with FFA rulesets, while the rest of the old-schoolers know what a FFA ruleset can turn into, particularlly when it's designed in favor of the people who take advantage of such a ruleset.

I really don't understand the obsession that oldschool = FFA PvP. It doesn't, nor should it. FFA PvP was one feature in part of many. It's a feature some like, but it's also a feature many others do not like. There are many oldschool MMO gamers who liked the extended crafting/economy oldschool MMOs like UO or SWG had. There are also others like liked being more reliant on other players and being part of a community, rather than 'random disposible player #235,246'.

Lastly, saying "Eve is completely different" is simply nonsense. Eve is far closer to the 'oldschool' MMO design philosophy than it is any of the junk themeparks around today. Yes it's not completely FFA, but as I mentioned earlier, FFA PvP isn't a requirement of an oldschool philosophy, simply one of them. Eve is closer to the oldschool philosophy because it emphasizes player control and influence. It has harsher penalties. It's economy is player driven. It isn't designed to be a quest treadmill, etc.

Yes, newer MMOs are better than old MMOs in some ways, but they're also severely worse in other aspects. Ultimately It comes down to personal preference. You can claim there's not enough of a market for MMOs that persribe to some of the more oldschool philosophies all you want, but the truth is that you really don't know... no one really knows for sure. Yes the more recent MMOs that try to use some oldschool design aren't getting much attention, but a lot of that has to due with a lack of completeness on the part of their development. The truth of it is, until a developer actually makes a triple A quality MMO based on numerous oldschool philosopies, no one can say for absolute certainty whether or not it would be a flop, or a success.

Originally posted by kakasaki

You may deny it but nostalgia does play a big part in people's perceptions.  Regardless of how badly made they are, MO and Xsyon do seem to offer what the "old school" players seem to want and yet those titles still languish with low population numbers. Maybe the big development studios have done their market research and realize there is no big demand for what small segments of the gaming community want...

 

And EvE is a completely different kind of MMO that has done extremely well for itself in the niche it made for itself (or some would say found). And even EvE is not FFA PvP... 

Nostalgia: a wistful desire to return in thought or in fact to a former time in one's life, to one's home or homeland, or to one's family and friends; a sentimental yearning for the happiness of a former place or time.

If that's what you mean by nostalgia then I'm guilty. I do look back at earlier MMO's and wish things could be like that again. Modern MMO's are just trash. I've gone through game after game and they're all the same linear soloplay quest grind crap, they're the same game in a different package. MMO's could have become so much better, the potential that was seen from the first few releases, especially EQ, had me looking forward to the future. Now I'm there, I wish I could go back in time. Nostalgia: a wistful desire to return to a former time in one's life.

Too right I'm nostalgic.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

I'm going to say here that MMORPGs have simply gotten worse.  Since Everquest, DAoC, AO, and the like, we've pretty much had only EQ2, WoW, WoW with story quests, WoW as envisioned by Brad McQuaid, WoW with an emphasis on overland PVP, WoW with a repetitive PvE grind, and WoW with randomly spawning public quests.

And then EQ2 tried to out WoW WoW.

Originally posted by Uway

Originally posted by SuperXero89

I'm going to say here that MMORPGs have simply gotten worse.  Since Everquest, DAoC, AO, and the like, we've pretty much had only EQ2, WoW, WoW with story quests, WoW as envisioned by Brad McQuaid, WoW with an emphasis on overland PVP, WoW with a repetitive PvE grind, and WoW with randomly spawning public quests.

And then EQ2 tried to out WoW WoW.

Yeah, but to be honest, compared to the serious identity crisis that game had during its early stages, I'm just glad they picked a direction and stuck with it.  For a time, I even enjoyed it more than WoW, but after playing Cataclysm and even WoTLK, EQ2 just feels antiquated at this point.

Originally posted by Ceridith

Originally posted by kakasaki

Originally posted by Ceridith
...

You may deny it but nostalgia does play a big part in people's perceptions.  Regardless of how badly made they are, MO and Xsyon do seem to offer what the "old school" players seem to want and yet those titles still languish with low population numbers. Maybe the big development studios have done their market research and realize there is no big demand for what small segments of the gaming community want...

 

And EvE is a completely different kind of MMO that has done extremely well for itself in the niche it made for itself (or some would say found). And even EvE is not FFA PvP...

 

Yes, newer MMOs are better than old MMOs in some ways, but they're also severely worse in other aspects. Ultimately It comes down to personal preference. You can claim there's not enough of a market for MMOs that persribe to some of the more oldschool philosophies all you want, but the truth is that you really don't know... no one really knows for sure. Yes the more recent MMOs that try to use some oldschool design aren't getting much attention, but a lot of that has to due with a lack of completeness on the part of their development. The truth of it is, until a developer actually makes a triple A quality MMO based on numerous oldschool philosopies, no one can say for absolute certainty whether or not it would be a flop, or a success.

As you've correctly stated, it does come down to personal preference.  It always has, and always will.

Nostalgia does play a significant part in our views on games if our "first love" was one of the earlier MMOs.  It's more than that, however.  In a space with little competition, the first MMOs defined what it was to be an MMO.  Those that enjoyed the experience those games provided necessarily enjoyed that definition.  Make no mistake, however, that there were plenty of people that did not enjoy the experience they provided.

Very short story.  I started playing Ultima Online on launch day with 4 real life friends.  We'd all been really looking forward to playing in a graphically rendered persistent world, adventuring without need for paper, pencil, or GM.  By the end of the first two weeks, I was the only one left.  It wasn't so much the seemingly constant stream of DC's, inadequate spawns, lag, or flagging system (i.e. earning "Dread Lord" status within an hour or so from creation by accidentally hitting someone's pet in the midst of lag-filled combat) that made them leave.  It was the focus of gameplay as a whole that they disliked so much that it would be just over six years later before any of them would even consider an MMO again (one eventually tried CoH, a couple of the others later tried WoW).  They did not like MMOs, as defined by Ultima Online.

Those that loved UO, AC1, EQ1, or DAOC love what those games provided at that time in their lives.  Not everyone agreed, however, even then.  Many did not enjoy MMOs as those games defined the genre.  Neither set of people was right or wrong at the time - it was preference then as it is now.

The genre has broadened and evolved.  Those that preferred the old styles of play aren't right, and they aren't wrong.  They simply enjoy one style amongst the many that exist in the genre now.