Darkfall = immersion.

Originally posted by skaterx2

Darkfall = immersion.

Yeah most MMORPGs are marred with unrealistic graphics and situations, but the times I walked away from my computer while AFK-swimming, AFK-gathering, or AFK-crafting were some of the most immersive, realistic experiences I've ever had while playing a MMORPG!  It was like I really was cooking stir fry, or buying groceries, or reading a book!

Originally posted by Cefka

I can still get pretty immersed in DDO (PvE is very immersive) and could get immersed in WAR (While PvPing) DAoC (in both PvP and PvE) when I played them. But could never get immersed in WoW or Rift

It realy just depends on what breaks the immerssion to you. Having the feeling that what you're doing is more than just filling a grocery list can be enough most of the time.

DDO works for me somewhat. Graphically they capture the dark dank dungeon feel pretty well. The combat keeps my mind on the fight rather than the hotbar. The AI can do enough interesting things to keep me engaged rather than repeating the same rotation. The dungeon mechanics such as locks, secrets, keys, traps, and puzzles offer enough variety to keep things fresh even when I already know the dungeon. On the other hand, once I step outside the dungeon its clear I am just going on rides in the theme park. Good rides though.

Spellborn was very immersive to me. No quick travel. No quest markers. Loads of interesting lore. NPC's that actually keep in touch with you as time goes on. The AI responded with some self preservation. The world was somewhat consistent with farms and homes making it feel lived in. It took a bit of effort to handle the slower pacing of the game, but it was well worth it up to a point. So much potential if only they could have filled in the obvious flaws in the game's design.

We really need an Arx Fatalis, Ultima Underworld, Risen, or Gothic inspired MMOG with enough attention to detail that it feels like a real world.

At this point, I would say no....The issue isn't graphics.  It's because Dev's simply don't know how to make a proper MMO.  I shouldn't say all Dev's, just most. 

WoW and most others = Grind fest (once you hit max lvl, then what - thats right - grind for better rep, grind for better armor, grind for something and why - so you'll be better than the guy next to you.  Don't get me wrong, WoW was my first mmo and played it for 4 year (but only because I didn't know any better...hehe)

VG= I didn;t play it at release because I was into WoW (Heard it was brokex20000 at release).  I did try it a few month ago and was vary nice...open world, crafting better that most, Housing better than most, though I think because of release issue, they lost most subs.

EVE=ok crafting system and great occon, but lets face it, I can't stay in a ship forever.  Travel-OMG.

FE=again, crafting ok and thats it, besides some quests, there is nothing to do.

EQ=never played.

EQ2=Crafting is similar to WoW and many other which is laim, Houseing was ok byt let face it-instanced...really?

WURM=Crafting rocks but graphics from the 50's I think.  Lots to do but it takes to long to do anything.

Xsyon=Haven't play'd...yet

The bottom line is, no-one has made a mmo with everything in it yet.  Someone need to develope a mmo in modern day times (The secret world), with progression systems like (FE, EVEt), Few quests for specific roles, Mainly quest made by players), Craftng as indepth as WURM, EVE, FE, Drops should in no way be better than crafted items (if anything, drops should be special items like mounts, special ingrediant for crafted items, etc),  Yes player housing (again indepth crafting to get it down), Players should be able to change the world, Player should be able to leave the world (maybe something like once you get crafting to a certain point, you craft a ship and are able to go to another planet), Good combat.  you get the point...All this and good graphics and you might find everyone in the world playing it.

A few things contribute to the "immersion" of an MMO I have found:

1. Perspective. Those who played EQ, Mortal Online Darkfall, even games like Oblivion or Morrowind would agree that there is a certain amount of immersion caused by forced first person perspectives. 3rd person games can have immersion, but I think its much more difficult to pull off and needs to rely more heavily on the other points here.

2. Amount of time in-game. It's an old chicken or the egg riddle. Spending lots of times in a game causes you to become much more immersed, greying the line between reality and the game-world, but people might not spend more time in-game unless they become immersed. Some of the older games people talk about what made them so "great" such as no instant-travel, grouping-only combat, and very difficult leveling. All these are timesinks which cause you to get attached to your character and the game. It's harder to get attached to newer games that are made for 30 minute play-time and pushes players away by breaking immersion with real life. Just look at UO's numbers and the way people viewed the game after the introduction of "power hour", no time sink, no immersion.

3. The world is alive. Someone already mentioned this, but WoW does a good job of creating a world that does not feel empty. Even if server populations are low, NPCs are walking around, critters are abound and monsters might even fight with eachother. The game world needs to feel alive even if no one else is there! Some single player games did this very well such as Freelancer.

4. Emotional Ties. If you are emotionally de-tached from the game, then you will never feel immersed and more connected to your character. This is often explained by "fanbois" as things like perma-death, corpse recovery, epic quest lines (taking weeks if not months to complete), full-loot PvP, open PvP ,etc. Basically anything that causes you to react emotionally to a situation. I do not limit this to social interactions, but they can be included here as well. Feeling hurt after being scammed out of items, or feeling scared running through a high level zone to finish a quest.

**edit**

I also forgot the biggest one!!! Windowed mode... being able to switch between your AIM window and your game breaks immersion every single time you do it.

tl;dr

1. Forced Perspective

2. Time spent in-game

3. World feels alive

4. Emotional ties to the game

5. Forced full-screen mode

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by Cefka

I can still get pretty immersed in DDO (PvE is very immersive) and could get immersed in WAR (While PvPing) DAoC (in both PvP and PvE) when I played them. But could never get immersed in WoW or Rift

It realy just depends on what breaks the immerssion to you. Having the feeling that what you're doing is more than just filling a grocery list can be enough most of the time.

DDO works for me somewhat. Graphically they capture the dark dank dungeon feel pretty well. The combat keeps my mind on the fight rather than the hotbar. The AI can do enough interesting things to keep me engaged rather than repeating the same rotation. The dungeon mechanics such as locks, secrets, keys, traps, and puzzles offer enough variety to keep things fresh even when I already know the dungeon. On the other hand, once I step outside the dungeon its clear I am just going on rides in the theme park. Good rides though.

 

Spellborn was very immersive to me. No quick travel. No quest markers. Loads of interesting lore. NPC's that actually keep in touch with you as time goes on. The AI responded with some self preservation. The world was somewhat consistent with farms and homes making it feel lived in. It took a bit of effort to handle the slower pacing of the game, but it was well worth it up to a point. So much potential if only they could have filled in the obvious flaws in the game's design.

 

We really need an Arx Fatalis, Ultima Underworld, Risen, or Gothic inspired MMOG with enough attention to detail that it feels like a real world.

I like DDO too. To me, the best selling point is the scripting sequence inside dungeons. It feels more dynamic (not truly so since it is the SAME sequence if you replay it) than WOW because there events happening inside the dungeon, not just boss fights.

DDO also has better difficulty control and you do NOT need a party of 5 (1, 3 or any number) to go through a dungeon.

---

Originally posted by Meltdown

tl;dr
1. Forced Perspective
2. Time spent in-game
3. World feels alive
4. Emotional ties to the game
5. Forced full-screen mode

---

I agree with the rest though, except for forced fullscreen, that seems kind of unnecessary.

Originally posted by Woopin

Or you could play a game with a mature community.

Yes this is it.

Low population i know but Vanguard hits all the right spots.

Of course it's possible to be immersed, but some of that is just as dependent on the individual's taste as it is on the game.

Mortal Online is a very immersive experience to me.  Xsyon is as well.

Everyone's mileage will vary.

Originally posted by Meltdown

A few things contribute to the "immersion" of an MMO I have found:

1. Perspective. Those who played EQ, Mortal Online Darkfall, even games like Oblivion or Morrowind would agree that there is a certain amount of immersion caused by forced first person perspectives. 3rd person games can have immersion, but I think its much more difficult to pull off and needs to rely more heavily on the other points here.

2. Amount of time in-game. It's an old chicken or the egg riddle. Spending lots of times in a game causes you to become much more immersed, greying the line between reality and the game-world, but people might not spend more time in-game unless they become immersed. Some of the older games people talk about what made them so "great" such as no instant-travel, grouping-only combat, and very difficult leveling. All these are timesinks which cause you to get attached to your character and the game. It's harder to get attached to newer games that are made for 30 minute play-time and pushes players away by breaking immersion with real life. Just look at UO's numbers and the way people viewed the game after the introduction of "power hour", no time sink, no immersion.

3. The world is alive. Someone already mentioned this, but WoW does a good job of creating a world that does not feel empty. Even if server populations are low, NPCs are walking around, critters are abound and monsters might even fight with eachother. The game world needs to feel alive even if no one else is there! Some single player games did this very well such as Freelancer.

4. Emotional Ties. If you are emotionally de-tached from the game, then you will never feel immersed and more connected to your character. This is often explained by "fanbois" as things like perma-death, corpse recovery, epic quest lines (taking weeks if not months to complete), full-loot PvP, open PvP ,etc. Basically anything that causes you to react emotionally to a situation. I do not limit this to social interactions, but they can be included here as well. Feeling hurt after being scammed out of items, or feeling scared running through a high level zone to finish a quest.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of points 2 and 4.

Time sinks can be both immersive and massive immersion breakers.  Any time sink that results in me wanting to alt-tab and read this site is goign to seriously break immersion.  Pretty much any involuntary, grindy time sink is going to kill immersion for me.   If the time sink is fun or challenging I will spend hours immersed in the game.  Make me spend tiem killing the same boring mobs over and over and I will start counting the specks of dust on the wall.

The emotional reaction thing can backfire on you.  It the emotional response is aimed at the in-game universe than you gain immersion (eg that evil troll tricked me into killing the wrong person but I will get my revenge on him in the next zone).  However, if the emotions are directed at other players and/or the devs you lose immersion since you are now thinking about out-of-game stuff while playing.

Originally posted by Rohn

Of course it's possible to be immersed, but some of that is just as dependent on the individual's taste as it is on the game.

Mortal Online is a very immersive experience to me.  Xsyon is as well.

Everyone's mileage will vary.

Well said.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Meltdown

*snip*

I have to disagree with your interpretation of points 2 and 4.

Time sinks can be both immersive and massive immersion breakers.  Any time sink that results in me wanting to alt-tab and read this site is goign to seriously break immersion.  Pretty much any involuntary, grindy time sink is going to kill immersion for me.   If the time sink is fun or challenging I will spend hours immersed in the game.  Make me spend tiem killing the same boring mobs over and over and I will start counting the specks of dust on the wall.

The emotional reaction thing can backfire on you.  It the emotional response is aimed at the in-game universe than you gain immersion (eg that evil troll tricked me into killing the wrong person but I will get my revenge on him in the next zone).  However, if the emotions are directed at other players and/or the devs you lose immersion since you are now thinking about out-of-game stuff while playing.

I agree about the emotional part, also people might just up and quit the game if the reaction is too strong. Shawn Wolley being the extreme example here...

But I disagree on the timesink breaking immersion, maybe calling them a timesink causes a knee-jerk reaction to the idea. But the more time you spend away from the computer the less immersion you have, so keeping the player in front of the monitor is a must, whether the mechnic is a mindless grind or an epic quest either you time is passing as you are sitting in front of your computer.

I was very immersed in UO until I was introduced to EZ Macro and the power hour came out, then it become just another game where you grinded out your skills to the max level. Another example for me is Rift (although there might be other reasons why immersion was broken for me there) but I hit max level within 2 weeks and it was so fast that I had no attachment to the character and just quit the game. If it had taken me longer would I have been more reluctant to ditch my achievement of a maximum level character? Probably, this refers more to the psychology of games though, and how we rationalize time spent and creates this attachment.

Originally posted by Meltdown

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Meltdown

*snip*

I have to disagree with your interpretation of points 2 and 4.

Time sinks can be both immersive and massive immersion breakers.  Any time sink that results in me wanting to alt-tab and read this site is goign to seriously break immersion.  Pretty much any involuntary, grindy time sink is going to kill immersion for me.   If the time sink is fun or challenging I will spend hours immersed in the game.  Make me spend tiem killing the same boring mobs over and over and I will start counting the specks of dust on the wall.

The emotional reaction thing can backfire on you.  It the emotional response is aimed at the in-game universe than you gain immersion (eg that evil troll tricked me into killing the wrong person but I will get my revenge on him in the next zone).  However, if the emotions are directed at other players and/or the devs you lose immersion since you are now thinking about out-of-game stuff while playing.

I agree about the emotional part, also people might just up and quit the game if the reaction is too strong. Shawn Wolley being the extreme example here...

But I disagree on the timesink breaking immersion, maybe calling them a timesink causes a knee-jerk reaction to the idea. But the more time you spend away from the computer the less immersion you have, so keeping the player in front of the monitor is a must, whether the mechnic is a mindless grind or an epic quest either you time is passing as you are sitting in front of your computer.

I was very immersed in UO until I was introduced to EZ Macro and the power hour came out, then it become just another game where you grinded out your skills to the max level. Another example for me is Rift (although there might be other reasons why immersion was broken for me there) but I hit max level within 2 weeks and it was so fast that I had no attachment to the character and just quit the game. If it had taken me longer would I have been more reluctant to ditch my achievement of a maximum level character? Probably, this refers more to the psychology of games though, and how we rationalize time spent and creates this attachment.

Yeah but MMO's seem like more of a job these days.

Originally posted by Meltdown

But I disagree on the timesink breaking immersion, maybe calling them a timesink causes a knee-jerk reaction to the idea. But the more time you spend away from the computer the less immersion you have, so keeping the player in front of the monitor is a must, whether the mechnic is a mindless grind or an epic quest either you time is passing as you are sitting in front of your computer.

I was very immersed in UO until I was introduced to EZ Macro and the power hour came out, then it become just another game where you grinded out your skills to the max level. Another example for me is Rift (although there might be other reasons why immersion was broken for me there) but I hit max level within 2 weeks and it was so fast that I had no attachment to the character and just quit the game. If it had taken me longer would I have been more reluctant to ditch my achievement of a maximum level character? Probably, this refers more to the psychology of games though, and how we rationalize time spent and creates this attachment.

I have always been good at multi-tasking so for me it is easy to do stuff in a game on auto-pilot while thinking about something else.  So I could be grinding out mobs in the game while thinking about an episode of a TV show I saw the day before.  I am immersed in the TV show but not the game.  The game will not immerse me unless I need to do some actual problem solving rather than just rote repetition. 

While for soem people rote repetition might create immersion, for me it will quickly disconnect my mind from the gameworld.  This is similar to when I am doing my morning commute to work, I barely remember the trip but remember the other stuff I thought about during that time. 

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Meltdown

*snip*

I have always been good at multi-tasking so for me it is easy to do stuff in a game on auto-pilot while thinking about something else.  So I could be grinding out mobs in the game while thinking about an episode of a TV show I saw the day before.  I am immersed in the TV show but not the game.  The game will not immerse me unless I need to do some actual problem solving rather than just rote repetition. 

While for soem people rote repetition might create immersion, for me it will quickly disconnect my mind from the gameworld.  This is similar to when I am doing my morning commute to work, I barely remember the trip but remember the other stuff I thought about during that time. 

So thinking about something other than the game breaks immersion for you, makes sense. Again I think I took too broad of a definition of "time-sink" meaning any action in-game that eats up time. Google define on timesink: "Something that consumes a great deal of time". What I should've said was not only does it have to take up time, but it also has to hold your attention. I would say that things that hold your attention for brief periods of time (a smartphone app game perhaps) will never be immersive because your time invested is so low. So just being interesting isn't enough, it has to hold interest for long periods of time. 

I think the biggest thing that breaks immersion is that there is no sense of reality at all in any of these games. When MMOs were new and the game mechanics were not completely understood (i.e there was little concept of end game), it was easier to become immersed. Once you have played a half dozen of these games, you know what the game is all about. Sure, there are different graphics and mechanics but in the end, your character is simply an immortal fighter, mage, crafter or whatever. While most of these games are built on fantastic premises, there is no consistent reality other than one- you cannot die or even lose anything except some time that you played. The world is static and the player cannot affect it at all. The econmies of most games are also completely unrealistic.

IMO immersion can only really come from playing in a world that is somewhat believeable. Believalbe means that there is some risk to the player of loss and not just from death. Also, the players have to be able to affect the world and change it for better or worse. That also means putting limitations on what one player or a small group can do.

However as another poster put it, your mileage may vary as far as immersion and some may be able to forget all that I just mentioned and be really immersed in the current crop of MMOs.

 Mechanics info doesn't jolt me out of the immersion, it is the players and the things they say and do in the game. I can filter out mechanics as a normal part of the gaming enviroment just fine. :)

Well you are playing what someone else thinks your character should be, playing through their story, everyone is funneled to the same end game.  There is very little customization, you are just another "insert character class/level" in a sea of many.

I'd say no.