Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Garvon3

Because only a small number of devs ever did PvP right? Mythic, Aventurine, CCP.

And none of those models proved to be wildly popular.
 

Um, really? Because DAoC was the second most popular MMO on the market in its prime. And Eve is near the top in terms of popular MMOs today. Darkfall and Eve are probably the only MMOs on the market actually GROWING instead of shrinking. That being said, DAOC's model, I think, was the best. It created a perfect balance between PvP, PvE, and crafting, and let a world come to life without instances.

"because griefing/ganging drives away the masses"....

#1 answer so far and I assume it is because...

These "masses" are the carebear, hand holding wow generation that is used to having companies bend at their will to make the game easier and "more fair".

When you think "arena" pvp is the ultimate pvp, that is sad.  At least battleground PvP has bigger numbers and feels a little more closer to "war" type scenario, but even then, that is lackluster.

I think it is the lack of good open pvp, the lack of a 3rd side, all this side A vs side B crap has to go.

Dark age of camelot was just fine, the pvp was good, it was a zerg fest at times, but it was good and people liked it. So to say that it is the zerging/griefing that is driving people away just further shows it is the post WoW generation mmo-ers that are ruining the pvp experience for the rest of the community.

Also, out of this generation came a lot of asshat little kids who find it fun to be douchebags over the internet where-as when you played back in the day with DAoC and such (before this game), the stupid douchebag kids were limited.  (I was a younger kid at this time being 16, but was not a douchebag or little prick that likes to ruin the game for other people by spamming chat with nonsense, or just being an all around douchebag).

So in my eyes, it is the WoW generation of MMO-ers who generally are ruining PvP, and the whole MMO community.  These publishers are making games to cater to these people who are used to having their hand held, or complaining about every little class imbalance and are full of self entitlement and "win/elite/your a noob" mentality.

I don't think its dying, i think theres just been some really bad PvP games released in recent years, and the same can be said for a majority of the PvE games. That all depends on your definition of success of course.

If you look at World of Warcraft, how long does it take for a battleground to pop? I haven't played in awhile, but it used to be about a minute, sounds sort of popular (pvp) to me..  and thats a PvE focused game.

Warhammer had close to a million box sales, it was a PvP (RvR) focused game, and people were (obviously) interested. It wasn't a very good PvP game, so people left.

I think there is a market for a PvP (RvR) based game, I'm just not sure developers are ready to take a chance on one yet (again). When the tried and true games can still make you some money (Rift), as long as it has polish, why bother.

/shrug

I voted "griefing/ganging drives away the masses" in most PvP servers/games there are allways entire guilds just ganking lowbies everywhere...even if they gain no exp at all...just to F*** you..... It takes away all the fun for me...

I believe PvP players playing dirty are mostly the responsables for PvP dying.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

Or are the shinies from pve interesting?

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10M WoW players and countless millions of other PvE gamers and single player gamers say: Yes...

The majority of the earth's population are morons...You know that right?

And they pay the bills and the only thing that matters in business is making money.  You know that right?

You make money in business off the back of morons, if anything you've validated his comment. You know that right?

1.  Lazy Developers.  PvP has to be balanced too and most game do not want to have to balance both PvE and PvP; it cuts into the profit margin.  We have to look at this as what it really is: a business.  Developers want to bring in the most money possible with the least upkeep expense.  Skimping on PvP serves this goal.

2.  Stupid Design Decisions.  In furtherance of #1 above, while developers do not want to spend time on PvP, they sure as hell do not have a problem milking the crap out of it and creating another time sink.  Best example: WoW.  WoW should never have had PvP gear.  Then you have the issues with instant death/griefing.  PvP encounters should take roughly the same amount time as PvE encounters.  Cut PvP damage in half, for example.  Allow plaeyers to use strategy and make it actually a battle rather than just spamming one button till the player dies.  I encourage anyone who has not seen an example of this to dig up some old 8v8 vids from DAoC.

3.  Policing.  Games simply do not get rid of the obvious hackers.  Sure, every now and then they will announce they have banned X number of players.  Problem is there are probably 3-4 people that did not get banned for every one that did.  And the ones that did get banned just end up coming back anyway because their IP is not banned.

4.  Will.  Fact of the matter is that alot of newer players will not stick it out.  PvP in most MMORPGs has an initial learning curve.  You have to take your lumps a little while until you figure it out.  Most people will quit PvP if they do not have a good experience the first time.  This is a shame because alot of those people would probably enjoy it and contribute to making PvP more relevant in todays market.

As for things like griefers and what not, sure that has an impact.  But sometimes, its those experiences which push people to stick with it so they can take their revenge and hunt down others like them.

I voted for choice #2. I love to PvP. But I just can't handle games that are purely Open World PvP. Mostly because there are just to many people thats only form of entertainment is hindering your games progression by camping you for hours and killing you at ever possible moment. So I just stick to Arena style PvP, or PvP optional servers where I can flag myself when I'm feeling frisky.

When Guild Wars 2 comes out i will point out that they got a more balanced pvp :3

And i'm sure of it, because one to three things that makes it balanced, first it isn't the gear that matters, mostly pvp games, or games that has pvp (take wow for example) Is it only the gear that desides if you win or loose, its not the *skill* of the player, it is only the person who farmed more gear that wins, and thats just how it is. (In guild wars they said they will change that, so its the skill of the player)

Secound reason is that you only have x amoun of skills. most games you got all the skills in the game (for that class) And just that makes it SO hard to balance a game, i won't say its impossible, but guild wars 2 just picked a easy and good way of dealing with that, so you have to pick x amoun of skills out from x amoun of skills. And then the last reason will come as soon as the game comes out, i'm sure i will be able to write more if they releashed more info then they already had.

But short: Yes pvp is dying because pvp is unbalanced and people hate loosing, and no it's not completely dead as there is hope ( Guild wars 2 fan...) So lets hope there be better games in the future that does something about this :3 

Many company that are putting a pvp element into their games....do it to broaden the games appeal. Serious thought is not given to how its implemented since it's  viewed as a needed add on to a pve game.The result..... player vs player conflict thats  "me too" , poorly designed and quickly rejected by increasingly savy gamers .

The reason PvP is dying (and I do agree that it is), is because games don't do it right. Games are either a free-for-all, or they have "battlegrounds" or other things that actually end up killing real PvP. Free-for-all is stupid, because it's unrealistic (it cheapens PvP to just be able to kill anyone, anywhere), and "battlegrounds" are just flat out retarded in every possible way I can imagine. 

I am not a fan of pvp in most games becouse it kill the PVE part of the game.

In most MMo's they Nerf a class or all of them. Why? Becouse PVP people wining that they cant kill someone. So the dev's go out of there way to make them happy. While never even thinking about the people that do not want to PVP just PVE. When the MMo nerfs for PVP they make it now harder to PVE for that class becouse that skill works for PVE. Now that skill is nerfed and now that class finds itself having trouble killing things that he or she had no problem befor the nerf.

After this happening to your class a few times you find your self becomming an Altaholic. Now that your class is no longer fun to play in PVE. I find myself soon quitting the MMo.

This is what is killing alot of MMo's for me Nerfing for PvP when im not even on a PVP server.

Originally posted by eoweth

Does this define a PvPer you know?

Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others.
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).

For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence? :)

LOL

I think that this is the funniest post that I have ever read.

Look out!

Your shadow is behind you!!

Originally posted by Sensai

1.  Lazy Developers.  PvP has to be balanced too and most game do not want to have to balance both PvE and PvP; it cuts into the profit margin.  We have to look at this as what it really is: a business.  Developers want to bring in the most money possible with the least upkeep expense.  Skimping on PvP serves this goal.

2.  Stupid Design Decisions.  In furtherance of #1 above, while developers do not want to spend time on PvP, they sure as hell do not have a problem milking the crap out of it and creating another time sink.  Best example: WoW.  WoW should never have had PvP gear.  Then you have the issues with instant death/griefing.  PvP encounters should take roughly the same amount time as PvE encounters.  Cut PvP damage in half, for example.  Allow plaeyers to use strategy and make it actually a battle rather than just spamming one button till the player dies.  I encourage anyone who has not seen an example of this to dig up some old 8v8 vids from DAoC.

3.  Policing.  Games simply do not get rid of the obvious hackers.  Sure, every now and then they will announce they have banned X number of players.  Problem is there are probably 3-4 people that did not get banned for every one that did.  And the ones that did get banned just end up coming back anyway because their IP is not banned.

4.  Will.  Fact of the matter is that alot of newer players will not stick it out.  PvP in most MMORPGs has an initial learning curve.  You have to take your lumps a little while until you figure it out.  Most people will quit PvP if they do not have a good experience the first time.  This is a shame because alot of those people would probably enjoy it and contribute to making PvP more relevant in todays market.

As for things like griefers and what not, sure that has an impact.  But sometimes, its those experiences which push people to stick with it so they can take their revenge and hunt down others like them.

1. PVP is a niche audience, but serving it poorly doesn't bring in more customers.  It's not in a game's self-interests to offer poor PVP -- PVE interests should come first in most games (because those players outnumber PVP players) but by no means does this mean a game will feel rewarded for having shitty PVP.  It won't.

2. Your examples are all over the board here (some of which conflict with your Point #1 that games shouldn't or don't put emphasis on PVP :P)   You mention instant death and griefing as bad traits, which is true, but immediately (and strangely) seg into WOW which lacks both of these traits.  And as an added bonus, you claim WOW shouldn't have had PVP gear without actually explaining why you think it was a bad move :P

3. Um...wha?   What MMORPGs even have a problem with hacking in PVP? (or at all, apart from goldspam-influenced account hacking, which is a completely separate issue)  There is so little hacking in MMORPG PVP that it's incredibly strange you bring it up as one of the ways PVP is "dying" today.

4. This is the only point you make which is accurate.  Although it's more "interest" than "will" (but both terms amount to the same thing in the end, so no biggie.)

5. Far more players quit games from griefing than "stick with it".  By a longshot.

There are some games that focus heavily on PVP. Like EVE and Guild Wars. But my guess is that the OP is talking about FFA PVP without the heavily protected areas like in EVE.

Well, simply said, those games will never be popular untill some company manages to make it balanced and prevent too much griefing and losing subs because of that.  I still have to see the first solution that prevents noobs being griefed by early starters when they try to lvl their toon. So far, all 'solutions' can be easily exploited. And the funniest thing about this, is that those griefers dont understand why the games they play always lose subs.

Also, I think that e-sports PVP is more popular then the corpserun, losing loot kind of PVP. Most players find it silly to see naked toons running around randomly attacking other players, preferably noobs so itll be an easy kill. Just so they wont lose loot when they die. It is also ridiculous when the mechanics of a game encourage this behaviour.

Originally posted by eoweth

Does this define a PvPer you know?

Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others.
No conscience (no concern for right or wrong), although they may pretend to have one.
Persistent lying or stealing.
Aggressive and extensive manipulation of others.
Using ethical standards to entrap others while ignoring all ethics personally
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others
Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom, extreme feelings of emptiness when not stimulated
Extreme egotism combined with rage-driven insecurity (rage may be direct or may be hidden, poisonous and passive-aggressive/covert).
Extreme arrogance (although it may be hidden in order to deceive others).
Disregard for personal safety
May experience fear as a pleasant emotion (a mild thrill) while being incapable of feeling terror, even in situations that would terrify most others.
Thinks that everyone else is like them, only inferior (thinks everyone else is also like them, although less intelligent, and more gullible).
Does feel pleasure when controlling others.
Are very good actors. They have been acting all their lives, so many are very good at it (some less so). In many cases can trick people for years.
In group situations can become power-brokers and serial-bullies (the leader of the pack).

For me, that's what's wrong with PvPing, since that list there pretty much defines to the letter most "real PvPers" I've run across. It's also a list of characteristics of people who are sociopaths. Coincidence? :)

I think that defines 80% of the people on internet, not just in PvP oriented games xD!

PvP's great it allows trolling and the best troll gets rewards that help he/she to troll harder, it's friggin great you should try it sometime! 

Originally posted by Ceridith

It's because PvP runs contrary to the design of MMORPGs.

A Good MMORPG requires meaningful character development (levels, stats, equipment, etc), which inherently unbalances the power between players.

Good PvP requires balance between those fighting each other.

When you mix the two together, you get an unbalanced mess.

So now you have a completely skewed PvP system where some people have no chance to defend themselves because of their level, gear, or they're simply outnumbered. And conversely you have people who are max level, ave amazing gear, and have a lot of friends who like to all go around and beat on those who can't defend themselves.

Fun? Not for everyone.

So how do developers try to balance out PvP fights? They shove people into instances and onto restricted teams to try to 'balance' things out evenly. Of course, instanced PvP is pretty meaningless. It's detatched from the game, and winning or losing only impacts how much "reward" tokens you get... to buy yourself more PvP gear -- and imbalance things even more.

PvP really doesn't mesh well in an MMORPG environment. That's not to say you couldn't have an MMO that does PvP well... just not an MMORPG.

I don't have time to respond to every point in this thread, most of which are poor arguments anyway, but this is the best I could find, so I will focus here.

The key problem that has made PvP such an issue, since UO, was the balance issue.  Not necessarily balancing skills, because PvP isn't about fair combat all the time, but balancing PvP with other aspects of the game.  Most games would suffer from this: its easy to kill someone who gathered for 2 hours and loot his corpse, then to do it yourself.  Therefore, nash equilibrium assumed, eventually everyone will be PvPing for the value benefit, and gathers will die out.  That's the nutshell concept.

Its the most accurate summary of what is wrong with PvP in most MMOs.  However, it is not an argument against PvP in MMOs.  Only against its implementation.  Execution and presentation was ruined by the likes of WoW or perhaps EQ, who set the standard for future MMOs by integrating a majority demographic(single player gamers) into a genre(MMOs)  presentated by their own game, which was based fundamentally on SINGLE PLAYER concepts, not the original MMORPG concepts.  Concepts like: the guaranteed hero, instancing, static PvE, arena e-sport like PvP, etc.  Essentially, to control and limit player interation as effectively as possible to make the game feel online, but to hold on to the profit generating and highly accessable concepts pioneered by single player games.

Breaking that standard, which is what the newest MMOs are trying to do very slowly by innovating and pushing for better player interaction, will result in another push for PvP, which is more or less the rough and basic aspect of player interaction, the core aspect of MMORPGs.

If they can finally balance and execute PvP properly, the idea of MMOs focusing on player interaction and not single player concepts will become the new standard overtime.

In a true MMO, people will not identify themselves as PvPers or PvErs, they will identify themselves as thieves, adventures, merchants, mercenaries, political leaders, religious figures, sailors, etc.  That's what the genre was originally about, building worlds that could fit people with the will to be anything, and enjoying the spontaneous and original stories that come out of those interactions.

PvP started sucking once every MMO post-WoW started to copy Battlegrounds.

Instanced PvP is horrid. It's so boring now. I can't stand it. I'm hoping a future dev team will actually grow a pair and try to create something that's worthy of an audience above the age of 16.

Originally posted by Dragim

These "masses" are the carebear, hand holding wow generation that is used to having companies bend at their will to make the game easier and "more fair".

Absurd.

These "carebears" have been present already in the good old MUD days.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "WoW" or "carebear". There are simply people who dont like to be ganked.

I think the main reason why PvP has lost its appeal is that it doesn't mean anything.  In most popular games its been turned into a grind fest for _____ (insert whatever piece of cheese you'd like here, rep, armor, victory points...who cares).  This canned approach to PvP may have novelty, and therefore popularity, at first, but that wears off quickly and you're left with a game who's PvP's only purpose is found in grinding  for something.  There is no risk of loss or substantial benefit that comes from winning.

It's kind of like telling Germany in WWII, "Go ahead and invade France, that's a PvP zone, but yeah, England, Scandinavia and North America are off limits,  those places are just for people who don't want to fight.  Oh...and if you win, whatever because we will reset everything in a few hours and you have to do it all again."  Sounds ridiculous, but that's the model most popular MMO's are running off of.

I think it's the opposite really.  Almost every new game that comes out has pvp a big part of it.  Most of the Indie games coming out are trying to capture the pvp fans and are almost entirely pvp based.   Now you might not like arena style pvp but its still considered pvp.  Shorter small scale battles are just the current trend.  In the past you had larger scale battles but they got smaller and smaller due to decreasing player participation.  Whose fault is that?  If you like those kind of battles you should have supported those games instead of letting them die out.  Blaming "carebears" or the "mindless masses"  is stupid.  They never cared about large scale pvp anyway. Small scale battles actually test the player skill and cooperation to win where large scale battles tend to turn into a numbers game.