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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by Puciek
 

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by Puciek
Another sp debate ?
I can take 800k sp toon and beat the crap out of any noob who bought 90m sp toon. Easily.
That's how important sp is. Not at all.
You will never catchup to the vets in matter of SP. That's true and that's a "so what" at the same time. This is not wow where you have to grind to the top lvl to be competitive. Nor you need money. Brains are far more important than sp and wealth.

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Let's not overstate the case. SP defines the range of things that you can do, so they do matter - of course they matter or why would anyone bother getting them? Let's not pretend that EVE doesn't have character progression. ISK is pretty damb useful too. But they're just another tool in the box; character progression isn't the point of the game like it is with many MMOs.
"Power" in EVE rests on a number of pillars, and you can often substitute one that you have a surplus of for another that you lack;
Skillpoints
ISK
Assets (this includes things like bookmarks, standings, etc)
In-game friends and contacts
Game Knowledge
Charisma/Intelligence/Aptitude - some people just get EVE really well.
Player Skill
All of these should increase as you play the game, but you can determine the rate of advancement of all of them except SP (and you can influence that).

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Wanna bet on that overstating ? You can explore with small amount of sp. You can pvp with small amount of exp. You can even get rich with small amount of sp.
 
So what is that thing i can't do with low sp toon ?

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Fly a ship with a covops cloak? A Carrier? Give Leadership boosts to a 5-wing fleet?
OK that was a cheap shot, but you didn't originally say "do" you said "beat the shit out of". That's overstating the case. SP do matter, and they do make a difference, but they aren't the only thing that matter and they make less of a difference than many people widely assume.
A low SP leadership character can give a handy set of +8% bonuses to a gang of 8. A high SP character can give bonuses up to 40% to a fleet of 200; it's nonsensical to say that the low SP guy can "beat the shit out of" the high SP guy. The point is that he can be useful, while still having room to progress and improve. That +8% extra EHP and agility will help a small gang of noobs in cruisers quite a bit; they dont need a maxed out unprobeable tiered Fleet/Wing booster set up to do a bit of co-op belt ratting or whatever. The high SP leadership guy is "better", but what are the chances he'll want to spend his time boosting a small gang of noobs doing noob stuff? The low SP leadership guy has a definite niche here.
That's the point: there are useful, meaningful things that even a very low SP player can do even with a small skill investment.

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Yeah, sp is important. Key factor. Really. And no, 8% difference doesn't matter unless you got mirror match with people with the same personal skills of playing (never happening, one is always better, by more than 10%). And if you make money by missioning/mining - you won't ever get rich.

Wanna play EVE Online?

IMHO

EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

Play the trial.  Download all the EVE offline tools like EFT and EVEMon.  Check EVEMon plan completion time.

Now go to youtube and look for Space Cowboy online videos. (it's not as exciting as actually doing the feathering and using the environment to "trick" missiles and WTF-a-whole-nation-wants-me-dead-feeling in-game but you'll get an idea what exciting dogfights should be like)

Do you have the patience and time to wait for all the skills, all the warping, reading, and more reading?  Are you 6/10 smart enough to be able to play for free buy buying PLEX codes in-game?  Are you the type who enjoys posting "wallet" kills?  Do you like politics?

Yes? Play the game. It's really deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep for a game. If i have to type the good parts of the game, it will take me days... or months...  because i still have to explain most of them to you so you understand. You'll be busy for years.  YEARS.

No.  Save your money so you don't get dragged paying for "skill leveling" monthly subscriptions and headache medicine. 

It's the same sticky-target-sandwich-combat game out there but instead of you slashing your opponent in one go,

you end up doing this:

you look at your target, you decide you want to hit him in the face with a weapon, you decide which arm you want to use, you make that arm move to where your weapon is, you make your hand move to grab the weapon, you go in range to prepare for an attack, you decide you don't want to go hit him from the side, you make your leg move....

Do you get it now? No? Okay log on and send me all your ISK.  I'll show you how to play the market and make you rich.  :)

Welcome to EVE.

Originally posted by bestiacorpus

Wanna play EVE Online?

IMHO

EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

When we talk about player skill we're mostly not talking about "twitch" motor skills. It's evidently wrong that player skill doesn't play a factor in EVE.

I know I'm going to get bashed for this, but to me Eve reminds me alot of Farmville with combat.  You set up a skill to train (crops), then go fight (play mini-games, or other facebook games), and come back and when training is done and repeat.

Originally posted by Gravarg

I know I'm going to get bashed for this, but to me Eve reminds me alot of Farmville with combat.  You set up a skill to train (crops), then go fight (play mini-games, or other facebook games), and come back and when training is done and repeat.

You mean you go play some other game while a skill is training?

Well, I played EVE for over 3 years, had a lot of fun but brought it to an end last year as I had done all I could find to do.

I'm sort of hoping they'll add some sort of content (not sure what*) that will rekindle my interest (I actually pondered a career in mining the other day until I came back to my senses) and I'll be playing once again in EVE universe.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Xero_Chance

EVE needs dynamic space combat dogfighting-style, definitely.

Also, they need to get rid of offline progression altogether, this was a bad idea to start with.

Unfourtunately they have a very rabid fanbase that would never allow either to happen. So we have to wait for other games such as Black Prophecy to see if they can evolve into a full fledged MMORPG rather than just a space shooter like STO.

Pretty odd though that there has not been one space MMORPG that tried to mimick games like Elite and such. All we get is ultra hardcore PvP point and click Eve or silly space shooters like STO. Maybe Galaxy Command Online will come to fill the void.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by bestiacorpus

Wanna play EVE Online?

IMHO

EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

When we talk about player skill we're mostly not talking about "twitch" motor skills. It's evidently wrong that player skill doesn't play a factor in EVE.

Ship + fitting is not skill.  No matter how good you are in maneuvering, it's all about your ship's stats against his ship's stats.
Experience will make you better. Skillpoints will make you better. Thanks to dice rolls, you ended up having to use the same player "skill" as the other player. IMHO in EVE, Experience will make you better, not skills.

Totally dependant on how they end up developing Incarna. I think they'd be better off using the development resources of Dust514 to further expand on the functionality of Incarna directly.

Incorporating console gamers (who nortiously bounce from game to game on a monthly basis) into a persistent MMO universe thats estimated lifespan is probably going to measure in decades... well I don't think its a good idea.  Especially when that paritcular genre is on lockdown by the biggest budget games in the business (CoD, Halo, GoW, BF)

I think they are overreaching and getting abit greedy, and I think its going to bite them in the ass.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by CactusJack

 

I would say this is as close to trolling as you can get. Not being able to influence your sp gain is FALSE. Plug in implants, remap your attributes...install implants in different jumpclones for different sp training....if you don't see why EvE has a time based xp gain to help you AVOID grinding, i'm not going to bother explaining it to you.

You know DAMN well what I am talking about. There is a huge difference in actively gaining exp and modifying your attributes so that passively you get more exp. And you dont need to explain a damn thing to me about grinding, Eve has probably the worst grinding in the MMORPG genre for ISK, minerals, materials etc.

Eve has the worst grinding of any MMORPG game? Your version of grinding and mine must be different. Per wiki, the most common form of grinding or treadmilling is to kill monsters over and over for exp. As you don't gain exp for kills, and gaining sp is automatic...I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Subbing for a long time is a bad thing? If you don't like the game after a few weeks, you either aren't playing the game as intended(in a group) or you just might not like it. That's okay. If you don't like it, move on and play something else. Shelling out hundreds of dollars for ingame Codes?? In 5 years i have never purchased a plex so that is false. Is it an option? yes...is it necessary? No. PLEX was introduced to discourage RMT through 3rd party groups...which in turn led to keylogging, account stealing, etc. Is EvE getting more money? Yes..I don't care.

Yes you dont care, but alot of other people do. Us who dont want RMT and new players being able to buy a 50 million SP character and T3 ship with faction mods for $$.

I do care about RMT, and just b/c a player can buy a 50 mil sp character and T3 ships doesn't mean that he knows how to use them. I have seen several people buy high level toons, good gear and lose them all at gatecamps that I personally have laid the final blow on. Null sec/0.0 and Open World PvP allows for balance with this. If you are flying a T3 ship fitted for faction mods...I can kill you no matter where you are. Feel free to keep buying them.

There is a particular person on the eve'o that is notorious for losing T3 ships and before that tons of T2 ships b/c he's a horrible PvP'er, and everyone knows it. Now when people see him flying an expensive ship, he knows he is asking for trouble.

Paying to replace ships is bad? I thought that was called RISK or some cases...CONSEQUENCE. Are you flying T3 ships into lo sec while on autopilot? Have you scouted ahead? I want risk in my sandbox game...thus you are saying I have to sell PLEX for ingame money to replace them? Why can't I just build them myself, or buy them legimately off the market?

Maybe your view on games/life is so black and white but there is something called moderation. The choice  is not between no risk and super high risk, there is something in between. That is a false choice made by people to validate something to be true.

Moderation in sandboxes are done by the players. Someone giving you problems? Form a corp, wardec them, and drive them out. Create an alt, infiltrate their corp, clean out their assets, and leave a note saying thx for griefing my main with killmail attached. Do something other than cry about it to the gms.

Involve yourself in the universe and less about what the mods are doing. Perception is reality to most. I don't disagree with what you are saying, however if you don't like how EvE is setup, you and whomever can move on and find another game.

You dont have to buy PLEX but if you do then you dont need to grind for ISK, just like most RMT based games.

EvE is one big money grab? Yamota, I understand you don't care for the game, but this is blatant trolling. EvE doesn't have an ingame store to buy shiny's or faction items. You are forgetting something...having  expensive items doesn't mean you are any good using them. This is the same lesson I teach all my rookies...they can't wait to get into a Raven(BS) or a Abaddon(BS) and they quickly lose them and cry about it.

I stand by my statement. Eve is tailormade to be a big money grab, just because you dont agree with it does not make my opinion trolling. 

Eves economy is highly driven by ISK and ISK takes grinding to get but you can buy GTC to sell for ISK so you dont have to grind, just like any other RMT based games.

Just because Eve hides its RMT behind PLEX/ISK instead of shiny faction items does not make it less an RMT based game. Those shiny faction items can be bought with ISK which you can either grind for or buy from converted GTCs which you buy for $$.

Eve is PvP based and PvP is done in a way that it cost you alot of ISK to replace ships/modules which in turn gives the choice to players to grind endlessly for ISK or buy it for $$.

Same with characters. Stay subbed for 1 year to get a high SP characters or shell out $$ to buy one in their character bazaar. And please no silly argument that you cant buy for $$. Yes you can and it is very easy: $$ -> GTC -> PLEX -> ISK -> character.

Finally your strawman argument about it taking skills to be good is irrelevant. That has no bearing to the RMT argument, many RMT based games takes skill to be good, that does not make them less RMT based.

Just to argue that a 50 million SP character has no advantages of a 1 million SP newbie character is just so silly that I wont even try to argue why it is so false. A hint: Just because a 1 million SP character can win over a 50 million SP character does not mean that the latter does not have any advantages.

 

There is a direct correlation between RMT and skills. If you aimed and tabbed 1-2-3 your targets, I would agree more with your view. However, all the sp and best gear in EvE is easily lost. Look through any decent PvP corps killboards....you can always find idiots who thought that THEIR CONFIGURATION fittings mattered.

Most pvper's I know, including me..have more than one account. I am not disputing that. However, this allows me to have a main that can run hi paying missions, manufacture T2/T3 items, and dabble in the market. I know some people that refuse to have 2nd accounts. All options are available. RMT occurs whether EvE provides a service for it or not.

Arguing the same point with you means little. Feel free to purchase whatever ship you like, fit it with the best mods...and I'll see you in my bubble as you pass through the one low sec system enroute back from Jita. No one ship is an "I win". If gear was "soul bound" or you didn't lose everything, your argument would hold true.

Purchasing characters falls under the same premise. If I sold you this character in the portrait you see..would you be able to effectively fly what he's trained? 100 million sp doesn't help you if you have no experience flying THAT PARTICULAR ship fitted THAT PARTICULAR way.

It doesn't matter how many times I can explain this...some people just don't get it. If you do kill me with your RMT purchased character, with you RMT purchased ship, with your RMT purchased ship modules...that's okay. I can go get another ship and we can do it again.

If I am salty about it...I'll wardec you, and follow you around and make you and your corpmates lives miserable. All the purchased RMT in New Eden won't help you.

Finally..let's not forget this is a game. Unlike most games, you don't win, you don't really lose. You can feel good about accomplishing things, and saddness about losing some things. Characters/Ships/Gear doesn't make EvE the game for me...it's the people that I play with. I log into play with them, not to murder people on gates with my Megathron...which occasionally provides some entertainment too.

 

Originally posted by bestiacorpus

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by bestiacorpus

Wanna play EVE Online?

IMHO

EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

When we talk about player skill we're mostly not talking about "twitch" motor skills. It's evidently wrong that player skill doesn't play a factor in EVE.

Ship + fitting is not skill.  No matter how good you are in maneuvering, it's all about your ship's stats against his ship's stats.
Experience will make you better. Skillpoints will make you better. Thanks to dice rolls, you ended up having to use the same player "skill" as the other player. IMHO in EVE, Experience will make you better, not skills.

I'm sorry but you dont know what you're talking about. You're simply flat-out wrong. There is considerable skill and knowledge involved in correctly fitting your ship to play a role in a fleet, and skill in maneuvering plays a HUGE part in PvP combat. Pro-Tip™: There's a lot more to maneuvering than "right-click, set orbit @ 10Km". A LOT more.

But that's OK: a lot of people think like you do, and they're the ones that get brutally slaughtered even when they outnumber the players that understand what they're doing. And then try and blame it on skillpoints.

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by bestiacorpus

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by bestiacorpus
Wanna play EVE Online?
IMHO
EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

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When we talk about player skill we're mostly not talking about "twitch" motor skills. It's evidently wrong that player skill doesn't play a factor in EVE.

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Ship + fitting is not skill.  No matter how good you are in maneuvering, it's all about your ship's stats against his ship's stats.
Experience will make you better. Skillpoints will make you better. Thanks to dice rolls, you ended up having to use the same player "skill" as the other player. IMHO in EVE, Experience will make you better, not skills.

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I'm sorry but you dont know what you're talking about. You're simply flat-out wrong. There is considerable skill and knowledge involved in correctly fitting your ship to play a role in a fleet, and skill in maneuvering plays a HUGE part in PvP combat. Pro-Tip™: There's a lot more to maneuvering than "right-click, set orbit @ 10Km". A LOT more.
But that's OK: a lot of people think like you do, and they're the ones that get brutally slaughtered even when they outnumber the players that understand what they're doing. And then try and blame it on skillpoints.

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They had about 6 more there that got out (bc+)

They have lost because they lack this not-a-skill thing called fitting a ship, discipline and by using amagad tactics by mua (and steel discipline).

Originally posted by Puciek

 

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by bestiacorpus

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by bestiacorpus
Wanna play EVE Online?
IMHO
EVE is still the same, from my beta days up to the present.  People always mistake the use of the word "skill" in EVE skill.  It's still about the skill points and the gear, it will never be about the actual skills of manually 'dodging an attack', tactical positioning, and using a targetting reticle.

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When we talk about player skill we're mostly not talking about "twitch" motor skills. It's evidently wrong that player skill doesn't play a factor in EVE.

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Ship + fitting is not skill.  No matter how good you are in maneuvering, it's all about your ship's stats against his ship's stats.
Experience will make you better. Skillpoints will make you better. Thanks to dice rolls, you ended up having to use the same player "skill" as the other player. IMHO in EVE, Experience will make you better, not skills.

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I'm sorry but you dont know what you're talking about. You're simply flat-out wrong. There is considerable skill and knowledge involved in correctly fitting your ship to play a role in a fleet, and skill in maneuvering plays a HUGE part in PvP combat. Pro-Tip™: There's a lot more to maneuvering than "right-click, set orbit @ 10Km". A LOT more.
But that's OK: a lot of people think like you do, and they're the ones that get brutally slaughtered even when they outnumber the players that understand what they're doing. And then try and blame it on skillpoints.

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You called ?
http://exmortis.killmail.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=4451491

 

They had about 6 more there that got out (bc+)

They have lost because they lack this not-a-skill thing called fitting a ship, discipline and by using amagad tactics by mua (and steel discipline).

It's no different from any other activity that takes a lot of skill. Some people are just much better at it than others, and some people will never be good at it.

Originally posted by Malcanis

I'm sorry but you dont know what you're talking about. You're simply flat-out wrong. There is considerable skill and knowledge involved in correctly fitting your ship to play a role in a fleet, and skill in maneuvering plays a HUGE part in PvP combat. Pro-Tip™: There's a lot more to maneuvering than "right-click, set orbit @ 10Km". A LOT more.

But that's OK: a lot of people think like you do, and they're the ones that get brutally slaughtered even when they outnumber the players that understand what they're doing. And then try and blame it on skillpoints.

Once again people mistake 'experience' as 'skill' in EVE. Dice rolls.

Watch these: (not EVE videos but you'll probably get what skill is about) ^You actively dodge attacks and control your ship in this game.  Equipment + stats play little to affect the outcome of the battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ6kYscUs8U  DoubleEagle VS the rest of world (i still hate him/her)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SfIQMql8Mo (0:50 I-gear VS M-Gear)

BTW, mentioning 'right+click and set X'? Really? Oh well, I guess knowing and learning about ship fits are player 'skills' now. Don't make me post a link of a WoW rogue ganking/taking on a group of 5 people because right now I'm starting to believe they have more skills than an EVE pilot who have great 'fitting and maneuvering skills'. Bye!

Having experience and correctly applying the lessons of that experience are 2 very different things. Once again, you are using a very narrow definition of "skill" to only include what are essentially motor skills. Dodging or pullling off a tight Immelman turn or whatever are definitely skills, no argument there. 

Co-ordinating a web of scouts, while managing a prober, while getting a fleet in place, while bluffing a spy on comms and getting the timing right for a hot-drop is very, very skilled. Fast physical reactions? Not so much, although sometimes a little. Fast mental reactions? Oh god yes. Are you really going to try and argue that there are no such things as mental skills? You're going to look pretty silly if you are.

I can't comment on your WoW example. Maybe that takes skill too, I dont know.

@Malcanis

It doesn't matter how many times you try to tell someone...they will argue. Large scale PvP in EvE is like no other game, much much more difficult than say, DF. I have been on 3 different vent servers, that were FULL of people....literally 300 people in ONE battle. Saying this requires no skill is ludicrious. I believe what many people want is the full control of  your ship, and not the point and click.

I say to those people...find another game. It's not going to happen, never will. There are enough hotkeys now that you can streamline your commands, such as grouping all your weapons, deploying/attacking/recalling drones, etc that can really save you in battle. I think another thing non-EvE and people that don't get around in EvE much...is the amount of area that there really is.

If you have never left hisec, and you really only warp to celestial objects or mission gates, you really don't really know. I try to teach all my greenies that, it is a VERY 3 dimensional thinking game. I teach them to always make their BM's "above and below" the gates...they finally understand after awhile.

No amount of trying to convince people that EvE requires you to remain calm, issue orders, intake relevant information/issue new orders over VOIP, remembering what the actual objective is...knowing where the fallback area is, having multiple monitors/accounts running, etc...they won't get it.

I don't care if they do tbh. I try and focus my attention in game where people that actually want to play the game are.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Puciek

 

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Originally posted by Malcanis

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Originally posted by Puciek
Another sp debate ?
I can take 800k sp toon and beat the crap out of any noob who bought 90m sp toon. Easily.
That's how important sp is. Not at all.
You will never catchup to the vets in matter of SP. That's true and that's a "so what" at the same time. This is not wow where you have to grind to the top lvl to be competitive. Nor you need money. Brains are far more important than sp and wealth.

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Let's not overstate the case. SP defines the range of things that you can do, so they do matter - of course they matter or why would anyone bother getting them? Let's not pretend that EVE doesn't have character progression. ISK is pretty damb useful too. But they're just another tool in the box; character progression isn't the point of the game like it is with many MMOs.
"Power" in EVE rests on a number of pillars, and you can often substitute one that you have a surplus of for another that you lack;
Skillpoints
ISK
Assets (this includes things like bookmarks, standings, etc)
In-game friends and contacts
Game Knowledge
Charisma/Intelligence/Aptitude - some people just get EVE really well.
Player Skill
All of these should increase as you play the game, but you can determine the rate of advancement of all of them except SP (and you can influence that).

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Wanna bet on that overstating ? You can explore with small amount of sp. You can pvp with small amount of exp. You can even get rich with small amount of sp.

 

So what is that thing i can't do with low sp toon ?

 

Fly a ship with a covops cloak? A Carrier? Give Leadership boosts to a 5-wing fleet?

OK that was a cheap shot, but you didn't originally say "do" you said "beat the shit out of". That's overstating the case. SP do matter, and they do make a difference, but they aren't the only thing that matter and they make less of a difference than many people widely assume.

A low SP leadership character can give a handy set of +8% bonuses to a gang of 8. A high SP character can give bonuses up to 40% to a fleet of 200; it's nonsensical to say that the low SP guy can "beat the shit out of" the high SP guy. The point is that he can be useful, while still having room to progress and improve. That +8% extra EHP and agility will help a small gang of noobs in cruisers quite a bit; they dont need a maxed out unprobeable tiered Fleet/Wing booster set up to do a bit of co-op belt ratting or whatever. The high SP leadership guy is "better", but what are the chances he'll want to spend his time boosting a small gang of noobs doing noob stuff? The low SP leadership guy has a definite niche here.

That's the point: there are useful, meaningful things that even a very low SP player can do even with a small skill investment.

Malcanis couldn't have stated it better there are so many things a newbie can do to be useful to a gang of experienced pilots, you could train for a covert ops and probes and get warpins for fleets or fly an E-War ship or get an interceptor the possibilities are immense.

When I first moved to nullsec I had 3m SP and could barely fly anything but I found a niche and fitted into high end roaming nano gangs and was immensely useful, those 50m SP guys where grateful when my little Kitsune enabled their 300m ISK polycarbed nano HAC to escape after being tackled or my Crow got a tackle and I had a lot of fun doing it and got hundreds of kill mails

By the time I had 10m SP I flew Interdictors and had an important place in fleet battles and the thing is even though i am now approaching 65m SP I don't have any more fun than I did back then (in some ways less tbh I am a little bit jaded) sure I can fly a lot of shiny things like every single sub cap T1 ship, all weapons and BC sized>smaller T2 ships and fittings as well as maxed out cap ship alts there is a limit to how many things you can really afford at once and now nearly all my skin plans revolved around training 30+ days for an extra 2% effectiveness in something.

 

though i am now approaching 65m SP I don't have any more fun than I did back then (in some ways less tbh

 

This is the great irony of EVE, and something few people will ever truly understand : )

Originally posted by qazyman

 

though i am now approaching 65m SP I don't have any more fun than I did back then (in some ways less tbh

 

This is the great irony of EVE, and something few people will ever truly understand : )

 Been playing since '05 and I understand it. Now punch back in from lunch we got more POSes to bust!  :)

I've played eve since 2006. The only reason I play EVE is because its the ONLY GOOD SPACE MMO. Not because of the 'deep universe bro' or the metagame, or whatever. None of that. The second a better space sim comes out, I'm gone. Why?

The controls and the physics. Yes, they take skill to master, mostly because its a completely unnatural physics engine. Is it fun? No, not at all, at least for me.

When I was a little noob I remember trying to control my Ibis with a joystick. Finding out EVE used a point and click control scheme was a massive dissapointment. Still, as a refugee from SWG I had no choice but to continue playing.

Now I run with an elite wormhole corp and have tons of assets to pvp with. But every time we go out and fight.. I'm left with the knowledge that the ship I'm flying is nothing more than a point and click ball in eves physics engine.

What would be awesome for me? Take X3, make that an MMO. Holy shit.