Originally posted by Pantheos

...

The problem with THIS situation is they chose the ABSOLUTELY WORST SPACE MARINE CHAPTER FOR THIS SCENARIO! They needed to use Ultra Marines (As much as I hate the smurfs) or Blood Angels because the Big M and Dante are smart enough to see the big picture and MAKE those alliances.

 ...

That said, the game is to far out yet, if they don't change the Space Marine faction or limit it like I said, it won't really work as no way in hell are Black Templars going to work with Eldar or Tau or the Inquisition.

As for the game being "too far out yet":  This is the time our feedback is possibly the most important and possibly the most use.

This thread has 32000 views now (making it one of the most read threads in the news section) - suggesting (3 years from release?) that there is a lot of interest in a WH40K MMO. And in all that feedback - there is a lot of negative feedback on the Two faction idea.  From people who know the lore very well through to casual passers-by.

Vigil should really look at that.  If they want to change it - now is the time to be doing that.  Every day they continue to design the game to be a 2 faction RvR game is another day wasted if they decide to change it / need to change it later.

As for the Space Marine Chapter... this is something no-one has really mentioned  - but I consider it a mistake because they have chosen a Chapter.

Think about it: what are players going to want to do when they become Space Marines?

Form their own Chapter! (Guilds)

Now I appreciate that Vigil and Games Workshop don't want every kid forming a 2 man 'chapter' called 'L33t g4NK3r$' and running around the battlefield - but they could put safeguards in to prevent that.  There are ways they could design the game so that players can form Chapters of their own (PotBS allowed players to submit sail and flag designs which had a formal approval process and compliance rules).

Vigil are making a mistake if they don't give players the option to form their own Space Marine Chapters (even if it is difficult and beyond the reach of all but a few hardcore players) because there is a player expectation that they will be able to do this.

Still have unanswered questions about this game?????

Jeff Strain: "Film, television, and book franchises are just not good candidates for MMOs. Even MMOs based on the “Big Two” franchises – you know the ones – have not lived up to the expectations of their developers. Today, and historically, the biggest MMOs are based on universes that were created for the purpose of supporting games. MMOs are all about exploration, personal glory, hanging out with friends, and meeting new people. You can’t take a universe that was created to support a linear, non-interactive viewing experience that has its own six-volume set of rules and expect a development team to deliver something innovative and fresh within that universe that allows millions of players to be the hero. The best games, MMO or otherwise, are created first and foremost to be games, and the world, story, and setting are there to serve that end, not the other way around. It seems like I hear about a new MMO in development based on a sci-fi or fantasy license every week, and it worries me tremendously. MMOs are expensive, expectations are high, and huge failures will disenfranchise publishers and make life more difficult for new MMO developers. If you want to take a popular movie license and spin out a DS game to support its launch, then go for it – I think that’s an appropriate form of media collaboration – but let developers design MMOs that are not constrained by the rules and restrictions of a licensing body."

First of all, the trailers for this game look awesome.  On the other hand, this was the least informative interview I've ever read.  Campbell seemed to have only three responses, "That feature's not ready for discussion yet", "We haven't reached a design decision yet", and "let me assure you that Warhammer 40k is the coolest, biggest sci-fi toybox you'll ever play in."

Nice, but this tells me nothing.  Guess we're going to have to wait a couple more months before we get to the interesting stuff.

The two faction system is the best approach to this MMO. For those of you who cite needing 3 or more factions to keep the overpopulated side in check, imagine for a second what that might entail in 40k. Let's say for example the space marines are the dominant force to start with (not a big stretch of imagination.) In order to restore balance, you'd end up with eldar fighting alongside either orks or chaos to beat them. Or an even more bizzar idea, let's pretend the Eldar are the dominant force (harlequins as far as the eye can see...). In that case, you'd have space marines teaming up with chaos space marines to fight eldar. In fact, if the eldar ever DID end up gaining the upper hand, the Templars would just help them finish off whatever Chaos forces are left and die happy knowing that at least chaos was denied victory. I'll admit though, Templars are an odd choice for a space marine chapter to co-exist peacefully with anything non-imperium considering how much they hate everyone else.

As for it's success as a PvP MMO, the 3 faction system is only necessary in a pure PvP MMO. A lot of you guys make the assumption that because the fantasy warhammer MMO was entirely PvP based that the 40k one will be exactly the same. In reality, the only thing the two games seem to share at this point is part of the name and the idea that it's order vs chaos. There was an interview about DMO in which the developer stated that the game will be neither wholly PvE or PvP focused. As such, there's no need for precision population balance because at least part of the population on both sides will be out doing their PvE thing.

Now would you all PLEASE stop embarrasing yourselves with the widespread condemnation of a game that has not yet gone to closed beta? What they have in mind may very well kick ass. But on the offchance that it blows chunks, they'll at least have time to fix it. But only AFTER THEY'VE GONE INTO A PROPER TESTING PHASE.

Originally posted by StMichael

The two faction system is the best approach to this MMO. For those of you who cite needing 3 or more factions to keep the overpopulated side in check, imagine for a second what that might entail in 40k. Let's say for example the space marines are the dominant force to start with (not a big stretch of imagination.) In order to restore balance, you'd end up with eldar fighting alongside either orks or chaos to beat them. Or an even more bizzar idea, let's pretend the Eldar are the dominant force (harlequins as far as the eye can see...). In that case, you'd have space marines teaming up with chaos space marines to fight eldar. In fact, if the eldar ever DID end up gaining the upper hand, the Templars would just help them finish off whatever Chaos forces are left and die happy knowing that at least chaos was denied victory. I'll admit though, Templars are an odd choice for a space marine chapter to co-exist peacefully with anything non-imperium considering how much they hate everyone else.

As for it's success as a PvP MMO, the 3 faction system is only necessary in a pure PvP MMO. A lot of you guys make the assumption that because the fantasy warhammer MMO was entirely PvP based that the 40k one will be exactly the same. In reality, the only thing the two games seem to share at this point is part of the name and the idea that it's order vs chaos. There was an interview about DMO in which the developer stated that the game will be neither wholly PvE or PvP focused. As such, there's no need for precision population balance because at least part of the population on both sides will be out doing their PvE thing.

Now would you all PLEASE stop embarrasing yourselves with the widespread condemnation of a game that has not yet gone to closed beta? What they have in mind may very well kick ass. But on the offchance that it blows chunks, they'll at least have time to fix it. But only AFTER THEY'VE GONE INTO A PROPER TESTING PHASE.

Only had to read the first sentence to know this post was nonsense.  Look at every pvp game with two factions, they struggle with highly unbalanced factions, yet DAoC with 3 did just fine.  3 is not the magic number, but anything more than two is!

Anyways there are multiple factions in the 40k universe, two just misrepresents the lore.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by StMichael

The two faction system is the best approach to this MMO. For those of you who cite needing 3 or more factions to keep the overpopulated side in check, imagine for a second what that might entail in 40k. Let's say for example the space marines are the dominant force to start with (not a big stretch of imagination.) In order to restore balance, you'd end up with eldar fighting alongside either orks or chaos to beat them. Or an even more bizzar idea, let's pretend the Eldar are the dominant force (harlequins as far as the eye can see...). In that case, you'd have space marines teaming up with chaos space marines to fight eldar. In fact, if the eldar ever DID end up gaining the upper hand, the Templars would just help them finish off whatever Chaos forces are left and die happy knowing that at least chaos was denied victory. I'll admit though, Templars are an odd choice for a space marine chapter to co-exist peacefully with anything non-imperium considering how much they hate everyone else.

As for it's success as a PvP MMO, the 3 faction system is only necessary in a pure PvP MMO. A lot of you guys make the assumption that because the fantasy warhammer MMO was entirely PvP based that the 40k one will be exactly the same. In reality, the only thing the two games seem to share at this point is part of the name and the idea that it's order vs chaos. There was an interview about DMO in which the developer stated that the game will be neither wholly PvE or PvP focused. As such, there's no need for precision population balance because at least part of the population on both sides will be out doing their PvE thing.

Now would you all PLEASE stop embarrasing yourselves with the widespread condemnation of a game that has not yet gone to closed beta? What they have in mind may very well kick ass. But on the offchance that it blows chunks, they'll at least have time to fix it. But only AFTER THEY'VE GONE INTO A PROPER TESTING PHASE.

Only had to read the first sentence to know this post was nonsense.  Look at every pvp game with two factions, they struggle with highly unbalanced factions, yet DAoC with 3 did just fine.  3 is not the magic number, but anything more than two is!

Anyways there are multiple factions in the 40k universe, two just misrepresents the lore.

 

Read the fucking post. There's a big difference between a PvP game and a game with PvP in it. A PvP game is like warhammer online where the entire game, maps content and abilities, is built around PvP. A third faction works well for those games because there aren't huge reserves of players out in the world that can be called upon to help bolster your side, they're already right beside you. There's no raids to farm, no social events to enjoy, no professions to skill up, just killing.

This game, by the developers interview, is not like that. There will be PvP, and maybe even map control, but they're also making PvE, professions, cool quest lines and so on. So if you get your nuts kicked in by someone, you can go run some dungeons or farm some mobs for profession mats or whatever. The point is that when PvP is only a part of the game, you will never have an entire factions population out there fighting. Winning or losing could come down to how many people you managed to rally to a fight, but no matter the outcome you're not stuck farming non-existant players or getting curbstomped. In a PvP game however, that's all you have, and if the population isn't in balance, the game's fun suffers.

As for the lore, it's an easy fix. The Ordo Malleus shows up, talks to the eldar, judges the situation and says "By the authority of the Immortal Emperor of Mankind, I am taking command." Then he tells the people under his command, who wouldn't dare disobey him lest they be declared heretics, to play nice with the eldar while they go forth and destroy the Traitors and Orks. The inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus have been known, on many occasions, to work peacefully with the Eldar when a major Chaos incursion is at hand. A few priviledged ones have even been able to visit the Black Library as a result.

I have almost no faith that this game will be any good. They are already having to dumb it down, and it will almost certainly get worse. I don't even think Blizzard could pull this off. The source material is just too rich to re-work into a video game.

Originally posted by ironhelix

I have almost no faith that this game will be any good. They are already having to dumb it down, and it will almost certainly get worse. I don't even think Blizzard could pull this off. The source material is just too rich to re-work into a video game.

Oh good grief!

The game is 3 years out and all we've seen so far are the barest fragments of what the game will be like and people are already bitchin and moanin... Seriously get some perspective, and failing that exercise some patience.

Originally posted by quotheraving

Originally posted by ironhelix

I have almost no faith that this game will be any good. They are already having to dumb it down, and it will almost certainly get worse. I don't even think Blizzard could pull this off. The source material is just too rich to re-work into a video game.

Oh good grief!

The game is 3 years out and all we've seen so far are the barest fragments of what the game will be like and people are already bitchin and moanin... Seriously get some perspective, and failing that exercise some patience.

I am just saying that history and precedent suggest that there isn't much of a chance for this to succeed. In other words, if they pull it off, it will be the FIRST time it has ever been done. I don't like those odds.

Originally posted by JT1228

You should have asked why they are being lazy and only having 2 factions.

QFT QFW

4 real guys hey , we should make it 2 sides cuz thats what wow did, gud idez.

"We are working very closely with Games Workshop to ensure that the experience that we will deliver in Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online will remain true and faithful to the IP"

How about, We are working very closely with Games Workshop to ensure that the experience that we will deliver in Warhammer 40,000: IS FUN!

Originally posted by StMichael

As for it's success as a PvP MMO, the 3 faction system is only necessary in a pure PvP MMO.

i LOVE THIS I READ IT 3 TIMES IN THIS THREAD AND EACH TIME THOUGHT REALLY? 

See most people don't realize the only time you need more than 2 factions/sides is when you have open pvp at all. If you have an area of open pvp you need more than 2 sides. Or that open pvp is a joke.

DAoc (was mentioned but you have to spellit out because these people don't know daoc at all). Doesn't have pvp in MOST OF ITS AREAS. In the orginal daoc after a few months pvp was largely and end game only thing. The rest of daoc was a pve game. People don't know or realize this becuase doac pvp was its focus end game, mainly because daoc pvp was so good. But you can have 95% of content be pve, but if 5% of it is open zone pvp it better have 3+ sides or it gonna be bad.

I'm getting really tired of all these DaoC fans circle-jerking to 3 faction PvP. It is NOT necessary to balance open field PvP, and in fact if everything works ideally, nothing will go anywhere because the slightest rise in power will be crushed by the other two sides. There will always be a winner and a loser, but at least for those who can't grasp that idea or simply don't have the competetive drive, you can play the PvE part of the game. Then you get a game that actually goes places instead of having year-long stalemates without the whole vicious cycle of dispair for the losing side being stuck doing nothing when their side gets their asses kicked.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by JT1228

You should have asked why they are being lazy and only having 2 factions.

QFT QFW

4 real guys hey , we should make it 2 sides cuz thats what wow did, gud idez.

 

"We are working very closely with Games Workshop to ensure that the experience that we will deliver in Warhammer 40,000: Dark Millennium Online will remain true and faithful to the IP"

How about, We are working very closely with Games Workshop to ensure that the experience that we will deliver in Warhammer 40,000: IS FUN!

I'd imagine that them trying to make it fun goes without saying, it is after all a GAME.

Saying that they are tying really hard to make the game as fun as possible really doesn't say anything it's as vaccuous as the pap politicians feed us everyday.

The question by JT1228 is still valid though. Why be lazy and make a 2 faction game?

My guess is that they want to maximise content and think they can balance PVP by another method than by having 3 factions.. Again lets wait and see what they have in mind before croaking doom laden portents about how it can never work with only 2 factions.

i love war but as others.. we need more faction system!!!!

Good luck in competing against the behemoths coming out in 2011 when this one launches if you(Vigil) keeps this mentality

A good interview asks uncomfortable questions and tough questions HAVE to be answered early in development... before it's too late!

Melodramatic maybe, but let's talk GAME SYSTEMS for players and not marketing drivel about the lore etc and how you're great, we're great and everybody's great (incl. GW oc).

Some positives: Vigil (check), WH40K (check)... 2 factions (rain-check!).

So this game shoud be more like that post apocaplytic game wtih 6 factions - Fallen Earth?

I alway liked the open world feel to what i saw in that (but never played it).

Im sure the PLAYERS can figure out how to stage big battles - we dont need them staged for us by the game mechancis. (Ie clans etc can stage battles - trust in the players! - sand box all the way).