Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Elikal

Why are we doomed to see one flop after another every year again?

I dunno what SOE does, but just sticking to the plan to make some small patches and mini content updates WON'T DO. But, as we know SOE, they'll realize in 2 years or so.

Hate to break it to you but that was just empty talk. SOE made their money on the box sales and probably dont even expect more than a couple of months of high subscription fee income.

Sadly it seems that some MMORPG companies, such as SOE, really dont seem to care to create long lived MMORPGs. They more or less treat them like single player games, with high box sales, and that is pretty much it. All that talk about major monhtly content patches is just marketing hype to get people to buy the game.

Why are folks surprised?  This is what SOE has promised for every single mmo that they have ever run and they have never once followed through. 

Why would SOE ever change?  They have a beautiful system. 

First there are a bunch of blog sites that are solely supported by these companies' marketing departments.  These BLOGGERS, remember that these are BLOGGERS not journalists, then ask a handful of questions that are provided by marketers to hit on all the key points that they are pushing for that cycle.  So you end up with half a dozen or more sites out there, that look like game news sites, providing you with precisely the information that the marketing departments have decided you shall know.

Then these bloggers publish their "interviews" which in turn the other blog sites link to on the same page as their own interview which asks much of the same questions with one added piece of info.  Then these bloggers consolidate all the information from the commercials, "interviews", and screenshots into their "previews" which typically follow a very specific formula.

I guarantee you that these "sites" will continue with their positive impressions of The Agency, SOE devs will say that they have learned from the past games.  The Agency will have up to date monthly content additions blah blah blah.  Then a couple months after launch people will wonder, AGAIN, why SOE does this lol.

Im subbed for 3 months and I dont think Ive logged in the past 20 days or so lol...I think its okay combat wise and stuff... But yes the community makes it hard.  Whenever I talk on teams everyone is just "..."

Heck I remember on one run of Area 51 HM, I was telling the story of how I was taking the train to class and no one even went "Wtf are you rambling about" Or anything!!! -.-

Its like the nice friendly people vanished all of the sudden!

the combat style(which does not work for the MMO crowd/but was ok for a few weeks for the console  crowd, who have got bored and left) and the plethora of exploits which still exist are what has killed this game. I made a prediction of a  total combat revamp back before the game was released. i gave it 6 months and I hold to that predicition.

Somebody above Smeds head needs to see that SOEs  SSDIP(same shit different IP) method of game development isnt working! someone making  thee design descions needs to be replaced and the person in charge of setting and seeing that content development goals are set and met also needs to go.

When I played at launch it was amazing there were people everywhere, battles all over the place, but lack of content, as well as bugs and glitches took over and SOE did nothing about it so people began to leave.

Originally posted by Castillle

Im subbed for 3 months and I dont think Ive logged in the past 20 days or so lol...I think its okay combat wise and stuff... But yes the community makes it hard.  Whenever I talk on teams everyone is just "..."

Heck I remember on one run of Area 51 HM, I was telling the story of how I was taking the train to class and no one even went "Wtf are you rambling about" Or anything!!! -.-

 

Its like the nice friendly people vanished all of the sudden!

This.

I mean, any MMO has issues. That's not the point. Ok, half, because of the bad UI. And yes in other MMOs conversation has dropped too. But when I log into Champions the Zone chat is ALWAYS busy. When I go to Stormwind in WOW, always people talk. Here: Nada.

It's just so weird. I mean, in the WOW dungeon browser, few ever said more than hi and bye. But in the DCU alerts, people don't even say THAT. What the heck is wrong with people?

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Castillle

Im subbed for 3 months and I dont think Ive logged in the past 20 days or so lol...I think its okay combat wise and stuff... But yes the community makes it hard.  Whenever I talk on teams everyone is just "..."

Heck I remember on one run of Area 51 HM, I was telling the story of how I was taking the train to class and no one even went "Wtf are you rambling about" Or anything!!! -.-

 

Its like the nice friendly people vanished all of the sudden!

This.

I mean, any MMO has issues. That's not the point. Ok, half, because of the bad UI. And yes in other MMOs conversation has dropped too. But when I log into Champions the Zone chat is ALWAYS busy. When I go to Stormwind in WOW, always people talk. Here: Nada.

It's just so weird. I mean, in the WOW dungeon browser, few ever said more than hi and bye. But in the DCU alerts, people don't even say THAT. What the heck is wrong with people?

Championsss~ I liked that game but I just hated how there were so little lairs and fun fights...I really loved the bugged "Tough" civilian missions.  Nothing like grabbing 5 players and absolutely owning an army of tough enemies! @_@ Too bad that was nerfed I think...It got to the point where it was getting too hard to make groups and my ex and I just stopped playing it.  I really wish there was more places to fight like a tough map or something because I srsly liked that game a lot!

I had like...5 level 50s each playing extremely differently (Healer/Ranged damage,Ranged Tank, Melee glass cannon, Ranged glass cannon, Tank/healer) And omg they were all so fun but there were seriously so little to fight!  I even had the craftable travel power -.-  I farmed enough for all 3 of them!!! I gave the mystic mats to my ex, sold my science mats when I found out it was electric flight instead of a motorcycle, sold my arms mats to a friend when I saw that it was a sonic roll and NOT a vehicle that rolls like bubbleboy -.-

Wow this sounds a whole lot worse than my current experience LotRO, where outside Kin (Guild) chat, there really isn't much chatting going. But at least in the group instances of LotRO there's usually some talking going on, whilst waiting for everyone to get together.

It's just a shame that this game has always been destined to fail, because it could have done a whole lot better as a Buy to Play game and would have sold a whole lot better on the PS3. Instead they foolishly went for the standard $15/£10 per month subs, for a game the average player can finish within the free trial and just cancel the sub.

Originally posted by therain93

 

I don't believe that SOE has made back $50 million in box sales, sorry.  Even if we're generous and say that SOE sold 1 million boxes, they only get a small portion of revenue from retail sales (at least boxes, which is a good portion of PC and all of the ps3), not the entire $30-$40-$50-$60 that gets charged to the customer.

Also, why are we rehashing parts of these conversations? We've gone over the litany of bad design decisions, bugs, and lack of content ad nauseum.  On the flip side, I do like the OP's question of why the press isn't talking about this more.  Where is Bill, since he was so gung-ho on the game?  Moved on to the next game already, too?

Yeah I have asked that before as well. As mmorpg.com was so positive about this game, where are their articles now that the servers are barren?

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by therain93

 

I don't believe that SOE has made back $50 million in box sales, sorry.  Even if we're generous and say that SOE sold 1 million boxes, they only get a small portion of revenue from retail sales (at least boxes, which is a good portion of PC and all of the ps3), not the entire $30-$40-$50-$60 that gets charged to the customer.

Also, why are we rehashing parts of these conversations? We've gone over the litany of bad design decisions, bugs, and lack of content ad nauseum.  On the flip side, I do like the OP's question of why the press isn't talking about this more.  Where is Bill, since he was so gung-ho on the game?  Moved on to the next game already, too?

Yeah I have asked that before as well. As mmorpg.com was so positive about this game, where are their articles now that the servers are barren?

 Simply a case of dammed if you do dammed if you don't, if an article arrived saying how much fun they were still having playing DCUO they the same few people would leap in and criticise the writer for being biassed or on the payroll. Indeed we have already seen such responses, not just here but also over on IGN when they admitted they were still playing, analyse this very post and the core is contradictory - why talk over old stuff, then why aren't the press talking over more old stuff etc.

The internet, by its nature, is excessively contentious, people give less respect or consideration to others by virtue of the diminished responsibility and anonimity it brings - here we see some presumed 'success is suddenly equatable to quality', its facically stupid and invalid as any simple example can be offered to the contrary but backed by assumed nd made up facts it can sound incredibly persuasive....or can it ^^

I was never interested in this game to begin with. Shocking really when you consider that i am a considerable fan of DC and comics and in general. What put me off was not that it is an SOE product but rather that i could tell early on from previews and beta that there was no way i could make the super powered individual that i wanted. Like a member of a latern corp for example. I dont want to be Captain Generic with ultra-gimicky ice powers or magic bullets. It is why i never got into champions with it's hyper customizable super power choices i was anything but unique and could not help but notice everyone picking powers based off how overpowered they were (like that shotgun or chainsaw) and to me it did not make sense to combine certain abilities so i felt more like fankenstein the hero, forced to purchase powers i did not want for ones farther down the tree that i did want, etc. at LEAST in CoH/V/R you could completely skip over powers in a tree if you did not want them even at the cost of not being able to completely mix and match between alllllllllll the archetypes.

DCU just never stood a chance in my book and i am very thankful that i never spent a dime on it given how things have turned out in such a short amount of time. You would think after all these years of MMO's that more people would have a better sixth sense to tell them what is quality and what is mockery.

Originally posted by Szasz

I was never interested in this game to begin with. Shocking really when you consider that i am a considerable fan of DC and comics and in general. What put me off was not that it is an SOE product but rather that i could tell early on from previews and beta that there was no way i could make the super powered individual that i wanted. Like a member of a latern corp for example. I dont want to be Captain Generic with ultra-gimicky ice powers or magic bullets. It is why i never got into champions with it's hyper customizable super power choices i was anything but unique and could not help but notice everyone picking powers based off how overpowered they were (like that shotgun or chainsaw) and to me it did not make sense to combine certain abilities so i felt more like fankenstein the hero, forced to purchase powers i did not want for ones farther down the tree that i did want, etc. at LEAST in CoH/V/R you could completely skip over powers in a tree if you did not want them even at the cost of not being able to completely mix and match between alllllllllll the archetypes.

DCU just never stood a chance in my book and i am very thankful that i never spent a dime on it given how things have turned out in such a short amount of time. You would think after all these years of MMO's that more people would have a better sixth sense to tell them what is quality and what is mockery.

That is what disturbed me from the beginning. The lackluster CC and lack of key powersets was my first clue this was going to suck. What is sad is that all the forums for beta and here were telling them this wasn't going to fly, but SOE chose to listen to the few SOE fan bois instead.

{mod edit}.

I apologize in advance for the weird code and breaks... using a proxy at the dayjob. Heh.

I actually am still playing. My League has died on Public Enemies, though so I started over on Zero Hour (Non-PVP) to try the Hero side of things. But yep, still playing it and still enjoying it as much as I always have.

That said, even I recognize the game has problems. Hell, when I reviewed the title I called them out on the problems as I saw them then and there too. In a recent interview I did, same thing. I asked them about the pressing issues as I saw them. Go read that. But the fact is, yes I still enjoy DCUO and it's still my main game.

I too find it sad that the populations have dropped on the PC: I'm anxious to see a merge honestly. But there's little doubt in my mind that the game now is in a better technical state than it was when the glitching really ramped up. I just wish there were more players to experience it. The exploits, more than anything else, I think really hurt them on the PC side. From what I understand the PS3 side is still doing quite well.

As for "where are all the articles now?" We've got one (of a two parter) that's published today. That count? The ton of articles you saw prior to launch were part of our weekly columns that we're trying to do for most every major game in development. DCUO's stopped shortly after launch and we switched to Rift. Rift's launch was very close to DCUO and so they did not get as many weekly columns. But there's only so many of us here, and this isn't my only job to boot. Now that Rift's launched, we're doing The Secret World and since it's not releasing for a while, you're going to see a TON of TSW articles.

These weekly columns are EDITORIALS as all columns are. And they're going to go one way or the other, especially after an NDA drops: either the writer likes the title and his writing will reflect that, or he doesn't and it'll reflect that. I happened to like, nay LOVE, DCUO and so that's what my columns read as. My honest opinion. That does not, and will never, mean I'm not going to write about the down side of any game. Just don't be surprised if I'm the type of player that can take in the bad aspects of a title and still enjoy it. I'm just not that cynical or downtrodden by nature. We really are damned if we do, and damned if we don't We try to bring you as much coverage as we can on the hot topics and upcoming games and their content. That's our one and only goal with the content here. Try to remember that.

Lastly, I'm reviewing Rift. We've published several dozen Rift articles since the title was announced. I was there in San Fran and the unveiling. I love the game. It will very likely be scoring high marks with me when my official review is published next week. Will it lessen the fact that I truly enjoy DCUO as well? Nope. Someone can like and play more than one game. And it's my job to do the latter. Lately, I've been blessed to cover some fantastic titles. Of course, that's just my opinion that these games are great and entertaining... and that's really what this is all about right? It's just an opinion.

/end rant. :)

I'm just going to jump in here. I'm not going to launch into my standard defense of this site and the way thatw e do our jobs. I'm sure you can read it when we're attacked with the same lame accusations after the release of every single game ever.

What I AM going to say is that the time I spent in DCUO was a blast. I really enjoyed the game. At no point did I, or any of the other folks writing for this site lie to you, or mislead you in any way. What you read was our OPINION. Reviews, I'm sorry to say, are opinion. We also can't look into the future. All we can do is review the game we ahve in front of us, and tell you how we feel about them then.

I'm going to share a little secret with you: We do this job because we love games, we're predisposed to like the games that are coming out. Some of you may have soured on games, gaming, or MMOs in general. I can't speak for you. Neither can Bill. That's your issue and not ours. I honestly feel sorry for people who go out of their way to find the worst parts of everything, it's gotta be a rough way to live your life.

Likewise, by the way, we slam games when we don't like them cause even to people who genuinely loves games and the genre, sometimes, they just suck.

We're professionals guys. I'm sorry if you don't like that, and you can call us bloggers, or hacks, or whatever it is that you want, but the bottom line is that we're in these jobs for a reason, and that's to provide our insights and the insights thata re given to us by attending gaming events all over the world and speaking with developers not just about their games, but about the industry as a whole, and through reading not only this site, but many others to gain that perspective as well. There's more to it than that, but that's the bare bones of it all. So, in the end, enjoy our opinions, or don't. hell, i don't care if your entire reason for reading the site is to say: I disagree with everything that Jon Wood guys says about games, so I'm going to do the opposite fo everything he says. That's fine and it's just as valuable as someone who likes what I have to say.

It's up to you when you read reviews or previews or any other form of opinion article and decide for yourselves if the person in question is someone you agree with or you don't. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact. It's how reviewing of entertainment media has been done since it started, and if your English teachers didn't take the time to teach you that in school, then maybe you'll want to write a letter to your congressman or something, but that doesn't change it.

Come on folks, we can only offer you our own opinions and the information that is presented to us. Make up your own minds and think for yourself.

Why are you getting panned so hard for your articles on the game?  Look at your review score and pros/cons for example of why people might disagree with your articles.

Score: 8  GREAT Pros

Deep character customization  Excellent storylines & content  Exceptional physics-based combat  Feats as alternate advancement  Superb presentation of the DC Universe

Cons

Lack of information on powers & skills  Many annoying little bugs  Stunted Social & League UI  Terrible chat interface

Do you still think that list of cons is reprentative of DCU's problems?  Does that feel like calling out the developer on the games problems?  I recall several times where your enthusiasm for the game allowed you to dismiss problems as quickly as you brought them up as if they were trivial.  Several times citing that they wouldn't be problems, because the developers promised to address them.  It is almost as if you wanted to write about how the game could be instead of how the game actually was. 

It only took a few short weeks for the game population to show just how drastically they disagreed with your view of the game being an 8/10 GREAT score.

I don't think anyone is saying you were less than honest when you say you enjoy the game.  I think the criticism stems from that being the driving force behind what and how you reported on the game.  

Daffid,

What you're missing is that it's my job to give my opinion. That's what I do here. I honestly don't sit at home as I write articles and say, "Gee, I wonder if this will be okay with my readers". Because honestly, that's not part of it for me. That's what Jon gets paid to do.

I don't claim to understand why I somehow get the luxury of writing games, and by all means you're entitled to your own opinion of my opinion. That's the beauty of free thought. What's more worrying to me, though is why a review being one's opinion is so hard to understand.

I stand by that review, even today with its languishing population, because to me DCUO is still a great game. What is there is fantastic (again to ME) and I'm eager every new update to see what's added.

EDIT: As for the "population drops show how people disagree with your opinion", all that really proves is that I (and anyone else who likes the game) am in the minority. There are plenty of folks still playing DCUO, though not nearly as many as there were at launch. I can see that as well as anyone. But those that still play it (myself included), still love the game. Just because others don't, does that mean I should change my opinion and say it sucks? I loved Auto Assault too, but we see how that went. I can't help that what I like isn't what everyone else does. Do you understand what I'm saying?

And yes, I think those Cons are representative of DCUO's problems. I'd throw in sparse population, but that wasn't an issue at the time. In a year, we'll revisit it most likely, as we do many games. It may be done by me, and it may be done by Jon, Drew, or anyone that's working here. But for now, deal with the 8/10.

As I stated elsewhere, I hare "scores" on reviews. But by and large that's (obviously) what the public pays attention to so we have to include them. But from now on, think of them like a grade scale. As a reviewer, I try my best to mesh the fun of a title's systems with the technical grace at which it performs. 7 is a C, 8 is a B, and 9+ is an A. Below 7 is dangerous ground, and for me DCUO is a solid B game. Were it not marred by the issues I've stated time and again, it would have gotten even higher.

So in summary, yes the 8/10 stands, and will stand until we re-review the title. So get on with it.

Jon/Stradden,

Is the problem really that people work hard to find problems in great games or the genre has been flooded with terrible incomplete games the last half a decade and players are sick of it?  Even hinting that players are the problem is being disingenious and a bit irritating.

That being said, you are right that your opinions are just that, opinions.  As are the responses to your articles.  Tit for tat?

However, it is hard not to notice just how drastic the difference is between mmorp.com rating/coverage of the game and how poorly the game has performed in the last 2 months.  I think this is the first time I've ever seen multiple staffers here come together to talk about how awesome a game was.  Then watching how poorly that game has been recieved by so many players it really brings to question how so many problems in the game could be overlooked that it garnered an 8/10 GREAT! reveiw? 

I don't think anyone is expecting next weeks lotto numbers, but to miss by such a huge mark is.... well I just don't know how to phrase it. 

Originally posted by BillMurphy

I apologize in advance for the weird code and breaks... using a proxy at the dayjob. Heh.

I actually am still playing. My League has died on Public Enemies, though so I started over on Zero Hour (Non-PVP) to try the Hero side of things. But yep, still playing it and still enjoying it as much as I always have.

That said, even I recognize the game has problems. Hell, when I reviewed the title I called them out on the problems as I saw them then and there too. In a recent interview I did, same thing. I asked them about the pressing issues as I saw them. Go read that. But the fact is, yes I still enjoy DCUO and it's still my main game.

 Well thats All I asked and you stepped up to the plate and said hey you still enjoy the game. So I have to give you kudo's to actually admitting that, and stuck your head into the hornest nest this thread has become.

I have to say I gave up in beta and never went back.  Now I keep reading all this stuff about how low the population is now.  I have to really wonder if it is or what.   I don't have acess to the boards as you need an active acount to post over there now.

Daffi,  you have to take into consideration that, at the time of the review,  its very likely that these were the only problems being experienced at the time.  Launch went fairly well,  but with each subsequent patch things did decline rather rapidly.

Honestly though my feeling is that, the population currently isn't indicative of how much fun a game is.  I had more fun in DCUO than I've had in most MMOs I've played in the past few years.  The game did its job very well,  it entertained me, and it did so far greater than the cost I spent to play it.   In the end,  I stopped simply because I couldn't be called an exploiter on one hand, and then get beaten by exploiters on the other.  It turned into a volatile spiral,  and I believe that is one of the main reasons on why the community dwindled.  

My (beta) review was very similar to this one... and though they rated it just a notch higher in comparison to what I would have,  I stand firm that DCUO is a GREAT GAME.  Not everyone has to like it,  but that doesnt' mean that we shouldn't like it either because others don't.  I wouldn't ask the writers to score the game based on others opinions. 

What mystified me was all the "DCUO is great talk" everywhere on the web and little to no coverage of just how well RIFT was doing - from its packed Betas to its launch. I am no RIFT fanboi (I did buy the game but am not resubbing) but it was so far the superior to DCUO that I thought it needed more of the lime light.  Especially back at that moment in time.

Now that the smoke has cleared, DCUO overlooked flaws (YES they were in beta - reported in beta and were still present in launch) have all but crippled the game - suddenly, RIFT gets some attention. And saying DCUO has flaws, poor coding, was rushed and seems to be being mishandled is now nigh on acceptable.

I understand that DC is a big name and a big draw. Batman is more recognizable that arguably any person alive in the US and the mythos comes with a huge fanbase. That was the game's only strength. Certainly not the half shod system, console to pc UI mess nor the its borked PvP holes.  The artwork and the big names make for wonderful articles and site skins to be sure. Hell, at that point it seemed to be a race to cover the game more than the competition. But the site readers and mmo fans were waiting at the other end of the tunnel. Did the reviews influence thier purchase? Did it reflect what they would be concerned about or enjoy? Were they warned enough about the myraid of issues that seemd to be left on the cutting room floor?

So what is the lesson in all of this? I think the industry should stop paying so much attention to the big sister with no personality and share some of it with the one that has some redeeming qualities. And that sometimes saying the emperor has no cloths can help in a way that is worth all the pain that comes about from saying it.

It really comes down to a sense of having beaten the game. People are fully geared in T2, they've beaten all the raids, and now they can sit back and wait for the new content without having to log in. Mostly what I'm seeing now is people logging on to raid, and then logging off after. The progression to 30 is too fast, and the grind for gear in two or three raids becomes pretty repetitive. I love the game, I love my character(s), but there's little reason to log on anymore.