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News & Features Discussion  » General: Down with Match-Made PvP

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85 posts found
  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

3/19/11 5:20:58 PM#61

 



Originally posted by WSIMike
Pre-determined factions also preclude true dynamic player politics from taking place. Such as with castle sieges ... there was often a lot of negotiation that took place with those. I remember my clan leaders spending an hour, or more, easily, in a separate Ventrilo channel, negotiating with leaders of other clans about teaming up to take a castle away from a major powerhouse on the server. Or, about possibly forming a formal Alliance to combine forces in taking on a more powerful alliance giving each clan grief.

 

On the other hand, seeing dark elves teamed up with high elves and Ogres fighting along-side halflings kind of kills the lore. Everquest was this way (except on Tallon Zek and Vallon Zek team PvP servers) despite the deep faction system in place in that game. It really didn't affect me, but still, when I'm thinking about PvP in a traditional fantasy game, I like the pre-determined factions.


Also, I like the structure of faction-based warfare. As much as I like the ideas of spies and being able to turn on your race/faction if they do you wrong, I like knowing who my friends are. They may not even really be my friends, but it gives me a reason to care about them, whereas if it was a FFA, I likely wouldn't trust or talk to anyone. I generally feel more comfortable helping others who I know are helping me, even inadvertently.


I very much enjoy the politics and negotiation from games like EvE that you speak of, and believe that you could have some factions that were inherently good, while others were inherently evil, and a myriad of other races/factions that were neutral, mercenaries, or mix-breeds.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  shantideva

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 193

3/19/11 5:46:03 PM#62

go pokemon!....

"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"

  Daredent

Novice Member

Joined: 12/30/09
Posts: 12

3/19/11 8:14:02 PM#63

Amen.   Scenario based pvp is a joke.   If you want a Scenario go play a FPS.   MMORPG's should be persisant real-time worlds.  Not a battle ground of 8v8.  End of story.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

3/19/11 8:56:21 PM#64
Originally posted by Redemp
Originally posted by Justarius1


Arenas, Battlegrounds, Scenarios, Warfronts… they’re all just “games” and team sports when what I want is a virtual war.

 

Scenarios proved to be one of the most popular facets of Warhammer, though.  People used them because they were fun.  I think you may actually be in the minority here; most folk I know who PvP prefer the team based PvP.

 

Don't get me wrong, I was a warband leader for many a T2, T3, and T4 "keep take/keep defense" team in Warhammer and I had a blast leading my team of 20 some-odd people around and trying to herd cats... er, bark orders at a group of people to get the job done.

 

However, at the end of the day, what made me fall in love with Warhammer was the scenario system.  I loved it - I think it's much better implemented (and fun) than the battlegrounds in WoW or the "Warfronts" in Rift.  

 


 

 I think the issue with your post is your experience with open world pvp seems to be pulled from Warhammer ... which failed completely at inticing players to DO the rvr lakes. People did the arenas in Warhammer ( including myself ) because they were non-stop, drop of a dime, I want to pvp now avenues .... which is what the lakes SHOULD have been, and were in Daoc.

 

 I am assuming you never played Daoc, that you also were "raised" as it were in Warhammer... thus I think you are born of the match-made pvp systems. That doesn't make you wrong ... but not experiencing the true side of Daocs BG's or open rvr zones, or any other title for that matter weighs heavily on your bias.

 

Oh, I played DAOC quite a bit - Hibernia for the win.  ;)

 

My "bias" is that even with DAOC's BG's and open RvR zones, it was still easier tto quickly hop on and enjoy PvP in a 30 minute session in Warhammer than it was in DAOC.

 

I think Warhammer would have been a lot better had they added a 3rd faction in, personally - that was where I thought DAOC really shined compared to WAR.

 

But, I played both games.  My "bias" comes from personal preference, not being "raised on" any one style of game.  I was "raised on" SSI gold box games like "Pools of Radiance"  that I played when half of the forum-base here at MMORPG.COM weren't even a glimmer in their parents eyes. ;)

 

The "lakes" in DAOC were the best lake-based RvR I have seen so far in a game, yes, but I don't think DAOC would have lost anything - at all - by offering scenarios/warfronts/battlegrounds what-have-you.  Some people just like quick team based PvP.

  Justarius1

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 385

There are two secrets to success in life. (1) - Never reveal everything you know.

3/19/11 9:04:43 PM#65
Originally posted by WSIMike
Originally posted by Justarius1

 

I'm not sure what desire motivates people to want to see a feature NOT in a game except a "I'd rather everyone play MY way so more people can play with ME mentality" - YMMV.

Perhaps they want to see a feature not in a game because... they enjoy said feature and would like to be able to partake in it?

 

 

 

Did you even read that, or your response?  I asked why people would want to see something left out of a game; I.E., why somebody would go "down with X, Y, or Z" just because *they* don't like it.  Of course one assumes that people want features IN a game because they enjoy them, but arguing AGAINST putting something in a game - that you can just not participate in if you dislike it - seems immature and counter-intuitive.

  Jamkull

Novice Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 214

Explorer 80%, Achiever 60%, Socializer 10%, Killer 50%

3/19/11 9:05:35 PM#66

Well Shadowbane almost did this perfectly... it's more for the pure pvp crowd.  But I just think if one of these big companies that can code really well and make it so there is less lag etc.  Trion seems to have gotten massive content in a single zone thing down pat.  Rift is mainly PVE, now if they could make a PVP centric game that does the loot thing like in WAR, when you kill a player they spawn random loot.  Now of course it might be a bit hard to keep people from exploiting that to some degree.  But it would be nice if they could figure a way to make it to where you only gain exp from beating players.  or maybe just have PVE content to a certain level but then the rest is gained pvp wise.  But go all out on the whole land control/ Total War aspects to an MMO environment would be awesome.   But i really like the scenarios from WAR though quite a lot.

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 968

3/19/11 9:35:17 PM#67
Originally posted by finnmacool1
Originally posted by PhelimReagh

Why don't people play the scores of games that already have these features, those games that no one plays because they're not fun for most of the people who have tried them, instead of advocating wrecking games that people like and DO play?

 

{mod edit}

This

 

Which scores?

 

and who said anything about wrecking current games?

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18989

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/20/11 7:16:14 AM#68

I totally prefer battlegrounds and world PVP where you never know how many opponents you might end up facing.  (a la  DAOC)

But since I don't wear rose colored glasses I can recall the nights of frustration where my faction (Albs for the win) were totally overrun and every time we went out into the frontiers we got rolled within minutes and sent back to sit it out and make our way back in.

While I am a patient person, many of my realm mates weren't or couldn't stand to lose the fight so they would rage quit constantly. (Helped that as a Minstrel with stealth and hyper speed I could survive a lot more fights than average player) 

Sure, as long as the fights stayed balanced everyone was mostly OK, but if it got too lopsided players wouldn't stick around just to take a beating. 

In fact, I eventually left the "normal" servers and went over to Mordred (the FFA PVP server) because the fights were no longer faction based, but rather were guild vs guild and therefore smaller in nature.

They still were unpredictable, you never knew who might join in the battle, but there was far less occasions where you would get endless rolled, was much easier to just find a new corner of the land (and you could fight everywhere) and avoid superior forces if you chose to.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Slapshot1188

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4113

3/20/11 7:41:38 AM#69
Originally posted by Justarius1

 

 

Did you even read that, or your response?  I asked why people would want to see something left out of a game; I.E., why somebody would go "down with X, Y, or Z" just because *they* don't like it.  Of course one assumes that people want features IN a game because they enjoy them, but arguing AGAINST putting something in a game - that you can just not participate in if you dislike it - seems immature and counter-intuitive.

 

 I answered this question a few posts back.  Perhaps you missed it.   Let me try to explain a bit better.

 

I like Peanutbutter.  Lot's of people like peanutbutter.  Peanutbutter is great!

I like steak. Lot's of people like steak. Steak is great!

 

I do not want a dish that combines the two as I think that steak and peanutbutter don't mix.

 

THAT is why I don't want to see battlegrounds added to every MMORPG that comes out.  I have yet to see any game that has successfully combined Instanced E-Sport battlegrounds and persistent objective based openworld PvP.  If you have an example of a game that successfully combined these two just let me know!.  Your example of WAR will not work since despite your personal feelings about the game, it was an epic failure based on the population expecattions and the mass exodus 30-60 days after release.  It's a 2.5 year old game and has been in a steady deathspiral for 2 years of that.. even contracting the few servers left just a month ago.

 

There is nothing "immature" about that position at all.  As a matter of fact it is "immature" to expect and demand that every game support every playtype.  THAT is what leads to false expectations and failed games.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6674

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

3/20/11 9:37:56 AM#70
Originally posted by Spyted

I'm with you on this, in a persistent world pvp should be persistent and impromtu that level of threat and danger won't wait for carefully coordinated and balanced teams to be cosseted & matched it has to reward those that are prepared and adaptable - brings a whole new level to the conviction and integrity of the gameworld and makes playing a more genuine and engaging experience.

The contentious missions in DCUO are awesome except they arrive at the wrong time in your life - they are wasted on people whose only real ambition is levelling - by contrast give the same contentious mission to a fully powered up character and the whole thing exploits every last element out of the ip, ramps up the variety of each encounter and maximises the challenge. The problem with pvp servers is that they are occupied by too diverse a range of leveled characters but if you leave the open gameworld as a prize for your endgame ensuring that everyone in it has the ability to defend themselves then it takes pvp to the next level. tbh even if you exclude pvp and base the same process on contested pve content the reward is still so much more satisfying and meaningful.

So you want unbalanced combat?Man wouldn't that be fun?I keep hearing this FUN word thrown around,i guess people really just want EASY mode.

When i play FPS's i actually look for a challenging game,i am not looking to use a 30 ping versus a bunch of 200+ ping players,i don't need to feed my ego with easy kills.The FUN is in the challenge,and the ONLY way you have a challenging game is if BOTH parties are near equal,then it comes down to who is the better thinker or more skilled.

In real life you are free to kill anyone you want,but HUGE penalties persist,this is the ONLY way open pvp works.I played a game that sort of handled in a decent fashion albeit could have been better.When you killed  a player they were allowed to put a bounty on you,this meant higher level players could kill you with no penalties and no level restrictions.Otherwise,if one wants to just ruin or bother someone elses's game.they deserve fairly large penalties of some kind.

People do NOT want to be bothered in real life,what makes anyonme think they want to be bothered in a game they are trying to have some FUN?Mutual consent,works because both have the same goal for fun,without consent is imo just ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Slapshot1188

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4113

3/20/11 10:40:55 AM#71
Originally posted by Wizardry

So you want unbalanced combat?Man wouldn't that be fun?I keep hearing this FUN word thrown around,i guess people really just want EASY mode.

When i play FPS's i actually look for a challenging game,i am not looking to use a 30 ping versus a bunch of 200+ ping players,i don't need to feed my ego with easy kills.The FUN is in the challenge,and the ONLY way you have a challenging game is if BOTH parties are near equal,then it comes down to who is the better thinker or more skilled.

In real life you are free to kill anyone you want,but HUGE penalties persist,this is the ONLY way open pvp works.I played a game that sort of handled in a decent fashion albeit could have been better.When you killed  a player they were allowed to put a bounty on you,this meant higher level players could kill you with no penalties and no level restrictions.Otherwise,if one wants to just ruin or bother someone elses's game.they deserve fairly large penalties of some kind.

People do NOT want to be bothered in real life,what makes anyonme think they want to be bothered in a game they are trying to have some FUN?Mutual consent,works because both have the same goal for fun,without consent is imo just ridiculous.

 

 You are confusing OpenWorld PvP with FFA PvP.  While the two may co-exist they are not the same thing.  Also, you procede from another false sumption.  OpenWorld PvP does not equate to combat without "mutual consent".

 

Take DAoC for example.  People can play all they want in their home areas without fear of getting ganked.  They can level to 50 and not have a single fight against another player.  I would find that utterly boring, but it is certainly possible.  Once a player enters the Frontier.. they have consented to enter a war area.   This is an area where the three realms are in conflict:  Attacking keeps and towers, contesting an RvR dungeon.. etc etc.

 

Now the game incentivizes players to head into these areas to get exp and gold bonuses so that the reward is commensurate with the danger.

 

DAoC also invented the Battlegrounds if I am not mistaken.  The difference is that in DAoC these battlegrounds are persistent.  They are not timed ESports with scoreboards.  It all feeds into the struggle of your realm against the other 2.  Capturing and controlling the level 20-24 Battleground keep (for example) will help grant bonuses throughout the realm.

 

So there is nothing inherently wrong with Esport battlegrounds like those found in WoW, WAR, RIFT...  if that is your personal thing, knock yourself out.   There is a significant portion of the community that would prefer Open Persistent World Objective Based PvP.  These folks do not want a scoreboard, a timer, points, a flag to capture, a fang to hold... or anything resembling CounterStrike death Match.  When I want such a game.. I will play such a game.  I simply want an MMORPG.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  MMartian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/10
Posts: 46

3/20/11 1:18:46 PM#72

I understand what is desired by the columist.

I feel that shat he is struggling with is that what he wants has been tried and evenually falls to the wayside for many reasons.

  1. One side gains an advantage and continues to build upon it. The loosing side gets frustrated and moves to a different Game/Server
  2. If it is made to critical to day to day game play, those that have no interest in this type of play move to a different Game.
  3. If it is relatively unimportant there is a frustration that develops because there is no reward for all the hard week. Players move to another game in frustration.
While the Esport battlegrounds may be less enticing to people like the columnist they are easier to control to deal with those three problems and keep a game viable for the greatest number of customers.
  timeraider

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/11
Posts: 550

3/21/11 3:05:14 AM#73

this might come unexpected BUT at LotRo (!) ...add the isengard expansion this autumn + some changes to who can be creep and who not.....and its totally what everyone wants for pvp as far as i could read from this blog!

  dunkelhaar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/11
Posts: 1

3/21/11 5:37:04 AM#74

I need to say that there was already a game out there which was perfect in every sense of PvP: Neocron.

for those who dont know the game:

Neocron is a or rather was a futuristic end time FPS-MMOPRG with fantastic crafting system, an area dominance system which helped crafters, and a free for all PvP system that is yet to match with other games.

Neocrons base was a faction system and an indicator named "soullight". Every faction was allied, neutral or at war with the others. Specific zones were ruled by spezific factions. Each faction had some speciality in trade which motivated trade with other players. You could do missions to improve your standings towards any faction. some missions also decreased the standings of other factions. You also gained faction points when killing players and npcs of factions you were at war.

Soullight was your karma. For every mission you got soullight. For killing the "bad" guys you got soullight (killing the enemy or killing players with minus soullight). For killing neutrals, or friendlies you got minus soullight. Yes you could kill friendlies, even teammates. Friendly fire was always activated! So what happened when you had bad soullight? Two things:

First: When you died you lost your quickbelt. your quickbelt was the "action bar" where you put your weapons, "pots" and other things (like spells). normally loosing your quickbelt meant, lossing some pots. But the lower your soullight was, the mor expesniv a death could get. So corpse runs were pretty normal.

Second: Quickbelts could get hacked by ppl with the right skill. The lower oyur soullight was, the easier it was to get hacked. So ppl with minus soullight did not only corpse run to get their precious rare weapon back but also had the chance to get hacked and get that weapon stolen from some guy.

So even with the possibility to kill everyone at any place, killing "the good guys" had consequences.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/21/11 5:56:33 AM#75
Originally posted by Athcear

This kind of thing would never last in the "everyone is a winner" mentality that games have now.  You get points for winning, you get points for losing.  Everyone is a winner!  Any situation where one side could actually win and hold on to territory for a long time...  Those balance issues pop up immediately.  Nobody is willing to lose anymore.  Think about wintergrasp.  The winners last time were defending the next time.  Didn't the attackers usually win?  They set it up specifically so that it would constantly switch hands.  We have abandoned the idea that one can log in and not be grinding points.  Contribute to a larger goal?  No way.  I just want my marks.

Well, while I can see the logic in this and how devastating the short term mentality is for the MMO longevity and quality, as a gamer I often asked myself: what did I get out of this 2 hours play session?

And woefully too often the answer in the old days (Eq2) was: nothing. It was painful. Yeah, WOW made this "get something small quick" a new fashion. And I think thats a good development per se. I just agree that this short term mentality essentially made games neglect the long term needs. You see when I had little time to play in EQ2 days of the past, it just was essentially IMPOSSIBLE to ever get to that larger goal. Those large goals were entirely out of reach for a casual gamer, and many endgame and high end stuff things still are unless you play with a daily schedule.

That is were match made PVP comes in. Some people just don't want to wait for hours for enough people to make meaningful PVP. I vividly recally how often the warzones in SWG just either were deserted or totally dominated by one faction. That wasn't "working for a larger goal" it was "standing around being bored". But I do agree MMOs lost the larger/longer term appeal these days.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7146

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

3/21/11 1:02:19 PM#76

I have tried a lot of PvP MMOs, from starting out on Vallon in EQ to Darkfall, and I have come to the conclusion over a lot of years that PvP in these games will always suck. It seems great on paper, but it's always crap, and the attitude and culture it breeds in them is worse. Much better for me to play PvE MMOs and get my PvP in FPS games actually designed for them. The two, to me, do not mix at all well and are only included in modern MMOs due to the myth that they are what made WoW huge.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

3/21/11 4:04:32 PM#77
Originally posted by vesavius

I have tried a lot of PvP MMOs, from starting out on Vallon in EQ to Darkfall, and I have come to the conclusion over a lot of years that PvP in these games will always suck. It seems great on paper, but it's always crap, and the attitude and culture it breeds in them is worse. Much better for me to play PvE MMOs and get my PvP in FPS games actually designed for them. The two, to me, do not mix at all well and are only included in modern MMOs due to the myth that they are what made WoW huge.

Well said. I too thought they never mixed really, and it's just because of some myth they are always added now.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  monaroq

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 5

3/21/11 4:42:51 PM#78

Key to this is reward, if you want a large group to really care then the objective be it a castle, a town or just a patch of grass needs to include loot or some reward such as improved skills or monetary gain.  In a game like wow all the best rewards are in PvE so no matter what happens this will be the main focus.

Although I agree you can have great RvR without this, it can only be beneficial to provide additional draw to the PvP RvR area.  Just my thought...something like if you hold the castle for a whole day then you get access to faction based items etc...

  User Deleted
3/21/11 7:46:04 PM#79
Originally posted by Palebane

 


On the other hand, seeing dark elves teamed up with high elves and Ogres fighting along-side halflings kind of kills the lore. Everquest was this way (except on Tallon Zek and Vallon Zek team PvP servers) despite the deep faction system in place in that game. It really didn't affect me, but still, when I'm thinking about PvP in a traditional fantasy game, I like the pre-determined factions.

Except that in Lineage 2's setting, Dark Elves and Light Elves aren't presently 'at war' with each other. Nor are Orcs with Humans, Dwarves with anyone else, etc. There's racial tensions, and wars fought in their past, sure... but not all out war. They're races who aren't necessarily fond of each other coexisting in the world. So, there's really no lore being broken there, beyond what a player might assume there to be because  Dark Elves are always automatically considered enemies of Light Elves in any fantasy setting that includes them.

For me, pre-determined factions introduces too many restrictions in other areas of the game. Again, it precludes any kind of dynamic player-driven situations from taking place. Dynamic, player-driven content is always more intriguing and interesting to me.

To each their own I guess, eh :)


I very much enjoy the politics and negotiation from games like EvE that you speak of, and believe that you could have some factions that were inherently good, while others were inherently evil, and a myriad of other races/factions that were neutral, mercenaries, or mix-breeds.

Fine... as long as they're allowed to freely negotiate and interact with each other. What I don't like is when pre-determined factions are restricted from communicating, interacting, etc at all. Things like language barriers between factions in WoW... even while you can freely understand every word an enemy faction member is saying to you if they're an NPC. So, I can't understand the Orc standing in front of me who's being played by a person, but I can understand another Orc standing 10' away perfectly. Seems a tad contrived.

  garry

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/05
Posts: 264

3/23/11 1:08:38 PM#80

Not a PvP enthusiast! Having said that I do have some questions to address the PvP centric players like some of those in the above posts.

!) Do you select a game primarilary because of the PvP?

2) How much influence does your 'liking' for a genre steer you in selecting a particular game.

3)When engaging in your favorite PvP play, what level of interest do the surroundings (ie environment) have on your play, including things that affect your actual play?

4)Does ganking and PKing play a significant part in your decision about PvP? Positive or negative?

5) Do you feel (strongly or care less) that PvP play should provide better rewards than PvE or crafting?

6) Should the 'death penalty' be applied equally to PvP and PvE (as well as severe loss to crafting)?

7) Do you feel all PvP should be wide open (OP and uinrestricted) or separated?

8) Do you have little or heavy interest in PvE along with PvP? How much interest in the game world (lore and strory) hold for you compared to PvP?

 

All these questions relate to the topic of PvP. As someone who doesn't care much for it but believe it to be a necessary part of an MMO in order to support a game I happen to like, I wonder how those to whom PvP is essential feel about these things? Just thought I would ask!

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