It's a bit more complicated in Rift, although not by much.

As far as armor is concerned, pretty much everything is clear. I've had mages roll on accessories though that had more wisdom than intelligence. It is true that mages can utilise both stats on an equal base, while the cleric has a 4:1 relation between wisdom and intellect. By accessories I mean necklaces and rings.

Moving to weapons. There is a clear distinction between caster weapons and melee weapons. A dagger with intellect in it is a mage weapon primarily and not a rogue one. From that point on the lines blurr a bit though.

I've seen bows with block in them. One could call them warrior primarily, although they could easily be a damage upgrade for rogues as well.

Caster daggers have primarily intellect while caster maces can be used only by clerics and not mages. Staves is a grey area, on some of them the spellpower bonus is so big that it surpasses the bonus difference you get from the wisdom deficiency. The same can be said about certain totems (caster off-hands).

Somebody else is probably more qualified to identify grey areas in non-caster weapons.

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Originally posted by sungodra

Game is the spitting image of wow, I can't even wait until something else comes out.  Half of the classes are not even viable if you don't spec the way everyone else is speccing. It's just bullcrap, the devs should have known this would happen rather than waste their time to make all these different combos that nobody will play because they wont be able to participate in a run without having to hear the kids flaming them the whole time.

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Doh! This is an unoriginal EQ clone the same as WOW so of course it going to be the same!

Wow some people amaze me. How could anyone know that this game was not exactly the same as all of the other shitty EQ clones that have come out the last 10 years or more.

Try playing something innovative and different like some of the sandbox games out there.

Originally posted by AkuheiKoyi

Regardless of what MMO I'm playing or what event I'm currently engaged with ~ as soon as someone thinks its ok to tell another how to play their char or make a specific build, I quit the group and find another.  Its best to just avoid these players that think they know best, and while it may hamper your progress only slightly;  having to find another group, it will also end their party too.

 

In the end no more progress is made at that moment, and the situation with loot being hoarded as described above, wouldn't have come to pass.

This is a prime example of how everyone should play: Don't give two shits about what anyone else thinks or says; just have some fun and fuck everything else.

I've played A LOT of MMO's, and seen a lot of things. If you want to get down to brass tax: it's partially the game's fault for making it so there are specific builds that maximize damage/healing, etc. But really if you think about it, EVERY game is going to have that.

One thing about Rift you have to understand: a lot of the souls have THE SAME abilities, just named differently and very slight damage differences. So you really can play ANYTHING you want to; but you have to know how to rock it. If you're not a very skilled player, all types of assholes are going to crawl out of the woodwork and rip you a new one because "you're not using this build".

If anyone told me to change my spec I'd tell them to suck it. All classes balance out, maybe not as well as originally intended, but they do; and the average player isn't a developer, so he's not intelligent enough to figure that out.

The 'WoW mindset' has nothing to do with WoW. It is all down to players, the shift in MMO's which allowed console users to play allowed teens and preteens to play. When you see guilds on Rift advertising and saying you have to be 12+ to join that says it all.

Originally posted by Drekker17

Originally posted by AkuheiKoyi

Regardless of what MMO I'm playing or what event I'm currently engaged with ~ as soon as someone thinks its ok to tell another how to play their char or make a specific build, I quit the group and find another.  Its best to just avoid these players that think they know best, and while it may hamper your progress only slightly;  having to find another group, it will also end their party too.

 

In the end no more progress is made at that moment, and the situation with loot being hoarded as described above, wouldn't have come to pass.

This. I only had something like what the OP described once in WoW, it was for a Pug Raid and while it wasn't me who was being attacked I was the first to leave. Eventually the whole raid fell apart, hopefully it taught a small lesson to the silent majority who don't like this behavior.

The best way to get rid of this behavior is to not tolerate it, the more you stay in these groups the more people think it's ok to act like this. 

 why didnt i think of that??......i'll be doing this in future pugs.....be gone with 1337 players telling us slackers what to do :)

Slackers unite :)

Originally posted by Scot

Thw 'WoW mindset' has nothing to do with WoW. It is all down to players, the shift in MMO's which allowed console users to play allowed teens and preteens to play. When you see guilds on Rift advertising and saying you have to be 12+ to join that says it all.

 thank god i am in a realy cool guild..... :)

So? I'm suppose to just put up with someone being bad? I'm suppose to just say hey its okay you wiped us twice because you can't pull half the DPS the rest of the group pulls but hey its okay =] I don't think so. Its okay if you follow ur own path but I DO not put up with people being stupid..... You can have a bad build and it can hurt your dps and it will get you kicked. I may be being a dick, but your being a bigger dick by wasting my time and 3 other peoples time.

This thread show exactly where WoW has failed. DPS/Heal meters and min-maxing. They(well not they but d-people who got tools to harass normal folks, but You get my point) change game into job.

Threat, healing, damage(in PvE obviously) should not be visible outside Your character. As simple as that. Not only because they hurt community(like 5:24 boss fight duration vs 7:12 means enough to kick players and make drama) but also they don't measure things like off healing, off tanking, cc and overall supportive things. And You don't need meters to spot a bad player.

LOTRO done it right and has one of best communities in MMOs.

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Originally posted by Serenes

So? I'm suppose to just put up with someone being bad? I'm suppose to just say hey its okay you wiped us twice because you can't pull half the DPS the rest of the group pulls but hey its okay =] I don't think so. Its okay if you follow ur own path but I DO not put up with people being stupid..... You can have a bad build and it can hurt your dps and it will get you kicked. I may be being a dick, but your being a bigger dick by wasting my time and 3 other peoples time.

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Also from my experience one l33t player with perfect* build and huge ego in group causes much more trouble and wipes than any other person with any reasonable build.

* If such thing as perfect build exist and is measurable at all.

Originally posted by crazynanny

This thread show exactly where WoW has failed. DPS/Heal meters and min-maxing. They(well not they but d-people who got tools to harass normal folks, but You get my point) change game into job.

Threat, healing, damage(in PvE obviously) should not be visible outside Your character. As simple as that. Not only because they hurt community(like 5:24 boss fight duration vs 7:12 means enough to kick players and make drama) but also they don't measure things like off healing, off tanking, cc and overall supportive things. And You don't need meters to spot a bad player.

LOTRO done it right and has one of best communities in MMOs.

Originally posted by Serenes

So? I'm suppose to just put up with someone being bad? I'm suppose to just say hey its okay you wiped us twice because you can't pull half the DPS the rest of the group pulls but hey its okay =] I don't think so. Its okay if you follow ur own path but I DO not put up with people being stupid..... You can have a bad build and it can hurt your dps and it will get you kicked. I may be being a dick, but your being a bigger dick by wasting my time and 3 other peoples time.

Two deaths isn't bad, five on the other hand is. Some people just don't give a rat's ass if they die; they're just having fun. I got fucking smoked tons of times my first day on Rift hunting; but I loved every second of it and went back for more.

If you expect to get in the best group, every time, any time you walk into a raid or an instance; you're setting yourself up to be frustrated. It's like gold farmers, if you got a problem, then ignore them. If you have a problem with someone's DPS, then leave the fucking group instead of whining like a little shit that just dropped his ice cream on the ground.

At the end of the day, no one cares man; it's just a game.

Originally posted by Serenes

So? I'm suppose to just put up with someone being bad? I'm suppose to just say hey its okay you wiped us twice because you can't pull half the DPS the rest of the group pulls but hey its okay =] I don't think so. Its okay if you follow ur own path but I DO not put up with people being stupid..... You can have a bad build and it can hurt your dps and it will get you kicked. I may be being a dick, but your being a bigger dick by wasting my time and 3 other peoples time.

Remember playing with people having fun not just "wasteing time" So of us do remember and thats why we play

P.S you wont have that problem if you dont pug

@ OP

What you have described doesnt have ANYTHING with Rift being a copy of WoW, the problem resides with the greedy scumbag players that saddly started experiencing their MMOs lives in WoW.

A good portion of my guildies have left Rift and believe it or not have gone back to:

Everquest Progression Server

Since the original EQ was rutheless and unforgiving, the community have to "work together" to succeed. For example: Death mean something in EQ, you could be train to death if you are jerk. No one will help in a corpse run and eventually your name will get enough bad reputation that you will quit.

I have already cancelled rift not because it is bad game, or because of the player base. I cancelled Rift because the PvP is not what I thought to be

It really sucks when there is "no room" for speccing the way you want and exploring. But come on, lighten up, thats a few players out of quite a few thousands? No need to panic just yet.

Originally posted by chrisel

Blaming WoW for everything, are we?? Get a grip. It is people's free will to do whatsoever they please. I hate WoW, but I do not blame WoW for every friggins negative thing that happens in Rift.

Like this never happened in UO, EQ or AO, even at it's beginning? The term "ninja" is older than WoW, and the genre has been around for nearly a decade BEFORE WoW was released. Trust me; there were idiots in the MMO's from day 1.

 This doesnt happen in smaller communities, and heres why. Lets take Sullon Zek from EQ1 for example, there were 3 teams good evil and neutral. Because we were split into 3 teams, you knew most people on your team. When someone was an absolute Dbag, or did something unsavory word spread fast. I knew a number of people who had to reroll their characters because they made some bad choices and no one would group with them. In a group centric game, that was the death of your character.

Now however because MMOs are less team sports and more shooting basketball on the driveway, people can be morons without caring because they can solo their way through the game anyway. Thats just one of the many reasons I think group centric MMOs are better. You act like an ass, you dont progress.

The only reason to go 51 into bard is the get the verse to regen mana.

That verse is on a 2 minute CD and is only moderately useful and is eclisped by other much better ways for caster souls to get their mana back themselves and is by no means necessary.

So the people demanding this are dumb and their statement that they were carrying him shows that they have no idea what they are are talking about.  A 51 pt bard in no way heals more or damage more than a 44pt bard.

A 32 pt bard with other souls that increase their damae will be very effective and will also cause that bard to heal more.

There are bad builds.  This is something people need to accept.  But the simple formulas based in other games spit out by raiding zombies are kind of sad.

This is not really a game things.  Its a social thing.  Its more about control and dominance and finding an excuse to treat other people badly to make yourself feel good and powerful.

These things they have nothing to do with reality.  This sort of person (clique in this case) will use any even vaguely presentable excuse to treat other in this manner.

I saw the same sort of thing the other day on my server except it was a different twist.

This dude was trying to claim that some cleric ninja'ed his friends equipment by rolling need on a caster staff.

His logic was:

- his friend, cleric 1, went into the instance as healing spec

- other guys, cleric 2, went in as DPS

- Therefore cleric 2 can't roll on caster stuff even if he has casting cleric rolls and even though other types of clerics use the same stats.  Or if you are using a one hander and shield you can't roll on two hander casting staves.

He complained over and over in the chat channel and called everyone who laughed at him a faggot.

Did the majority of the server thinkn this way?   I doubt it.  The dude was some 13 yer old piece of crap who was pissed he couldn't politic someone out of an item.

Many 13-18 year olds are like this, semi-sociopathic and completely consumed by whatever clique they are in.  They will rationalize and justify anything they can to satisfy their selfish whims and ruthlessly punish those who do not belong.  And no amount of anything can pierce theyir self-absorved armor.  The only thing that ever does is the inevitables failures and consequences of real life.

i too have starting to see this lately. it seems that whenever a new mmorpg comes out, by default the majority of people you will see would have came from wow- which means the majority of the population of any new mmo will be the utter filth that you just described. hopefully the new age mmorpgs that are coming up soon will try to target a different population other than ex-wow players and only then will you have a semi-decent community.

This thread convinced me that from now on if I'm playing a great game (including if that is the case with GW2 and TSW)....I'm going to start saying the games suck and are horrible and just totally talking them down.  Maybe this way I won't add to the attraction for ex-CommunitySucksAss players. I for one, don't WANT to have to play with those douchebags in every game that comes out from now on. I hope they fall in love with their game all over again and never want to play ANY game I like.

Asshats will always be asshats.

I do like that ArenaNet is very anti-griefing and has tried to "grief proof" GW2. We'll see how well that works. Maybe it will make the game not fun for the assholes. I'm hoping.