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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Holy Trinity

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154 posts found
  gobla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1414

C'est la vie.

3/16/11 1:23:19 PM#21
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by romanator0

Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

Was it still that bad when heroes came?

I never played anything but a monk in the harder parts of the game so I'm not sure how the heroes compare but from what I heard from guildies they were quite fine even though you had to take more of them ( 3 heroes would do the work 2 player healers. )

I'd have preferred an option where you'd still have a dedicated healing class but also additional options. For example a serious controller/debuffer that prevent enough damage by disabling and debuffing enemies to make sure the team's small self-heals were enough.

I understand that requiring a healer isn't the perfect way to go. But removing the healer role totally just seems like the easy way out.

We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")

  romanator0

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 2425

3/16/11 1:28:51 PM#22
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by romanator0

Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

Was it still that bad when heroes came?

I never played anything but a monk in the harder parts of the game so I'm not sure how the heroes compare but from what I heard from guildies they were quite fine even though you had to take more of them ( 3 heroes would do the work 2 player healers. )

I'd have preferred an option where you'd still have a dedicated healing class but also additional options. For example a serious controller/debuffer that prevent enough damage by disabling and debuffing enemies to make sure the team's small self-heals were enough.

I understand that requiring a healer isn't the perfect way to go. But removing the healer role totally just seems like the easy way out.

 Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

  User Deleted
3/16/11 1:40:21 PM#23

I dont see holy trinity as a problem nor do i see the omnirole system as one. they are both fun and interesting combat mechanics when designed correctly. Ive played plenty of online games that let every class dps,cc and heal.

afaik gw2 will be the first mmo to do so. it will be interesting to see. im a little concerned about large scale pvp in an environment where everyone can do everything because it can lead to infinite heals or infinite cc chains. hopefully the action bar will help with the spamming.

on the other hand, swtor will be introducing a cover system along with ranged tanks and stealth healers. if they do it right, that could be a nice change of pace to the holy trinity.

in either case. its good to finally see some big budget mmos coming out that are not being rushed out the door but are going to hopefully be launched as finished products with some interesting features.

  Sasami

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/08
Posts: 330

3/16/11 1:56:06 PM#24
Originally posted by someforumguy

My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

 That what I was thinking however in this video it seems that mobs can walkthrough players so you can't really block them. Maybe it's just demo effect or players didn't play that well. Otherwise it looked lot like aggro pinball, again probaply due player inexperience. That Gears of War ressing is still best thing in GW2, definetly step in right direction instead of stupid spells.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI&feature=related

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3481

3/16/11 2:07:29 PM#25
Originally posted by Sasami
Originally posted by someforumguy

My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

 That what I was thinking however in this video it seems that mobs can walkthrough players so you can't really block them. Maybe it's just demo effect or players didn't play that well. Otherwise it looked lot like aggro pinball, again probaply due player inexperience. That Gears of War ressing is still best thing in GW2, definetly step in right direction instead of stupid spells.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI&feature=related

Where your teammember puts the wall of fire so you can shoot arrows through it to make them flaming, is about positioning too. Or where the guardians puts up the blockades. All those AOE effects are about positioning too.

  gobla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1414

C'est la vie.

3/16/11 2:16:13 PM#26
Originally posted by romanator0

 Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

You need healers because you take damage. So you need someone to heal you up.

As I said in my Monk post pure healing is simply boring. Prevention of damage however is highly interesting. The thing about damage prevention though is that it's not limited to support classes.

Create a class like the protection monk which prevents damage by protective enchantments like protective spirit, bonds, guardian and shield of absorption.

Create a warrior class focussing on stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks. Make these skills PvE only ( reduced effect in PvP ) and make the goal of this class to constantly stun enemies though heavy attacks so they can't fight back and damage you. Enemy rushing a squishy? Knock them back 20 yards and get some breathing room. Lots of enemies around? Do an AoE stomp and stun them all. Big boss doing lots of damage? Chain your disables in such a way that the boss won't get a hit in. Important would be that this class would be low damage. His weapon are his disables. He's an offensive support class, not a damage dealer. Even in PvP he would still focus on disables but stuns could lost shorter while the remaining duration would become for example a slow ( 3 sec stun becomes a 0,5 sec stun with a 2,5 sec slow ).

Create a dark sorceror class focussing on curses and debuffs. Again a reduced effect in PvP but in PvE make cursed enemies miss nearly all the time, give him options to silence enemies for longer durations. Weaken enemeis greatly reducing their damage etc. Give them a variety of curses with a variety of effects that all reduce the damage output and effectiveness of enemies. In PvP the effects would be reduced but still viable. Say a 75% miss rate curse in PvE and 25% in PvP. Again low damage output.

The problem is that in the current holy trinity there generally are only 2 out of 10 specs that are unable to do any real damage. The tank and healer. The rest of the specs ( be it berserker warrior, smiting priest, fire mage, unholy necromancer etc. ) generally all focus on damage. You're left with a system that requires non-damage classes for team content but provides 80% of the classes as damage dealers. What you need is a system where the amount of damage dealers is greatly reduced. So that support characters aren't the few and far in between that make it possible for the DPS to enjoy the game but instead make up a far larger portion of the player base.

This would cause grouping on a much larger scale as many more players would need to group as they aren't all DPS classes who can solo just fine. If players continually group then it's no longer such a sacrifice to play a support role. Not to mention that the devs can put more resources in making support roles fun as they're no longer a small portion of the player base.

We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

3/16/11 2:46:19 PM#27
Originally posted by Sasami
Originally posted by someforumguy

My take on GW2 combat is that its even more about tactical positioning then in GW1. Which I find a refreshing change. I always found the taunting abilities in other games kind of meh.

 That what I was thinking however in this video it seems that mobs can walkthrough players so you can't really block them. Maybe it's just demo effect or players didn't play that well. Otherwise it looked lot like aggro pinball, again probaply due player inexperience. That Gears of War ressing is still best thing in GW2, definetly step in right direction instead of stupid spells.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx0QnKgQ1CI&feature=related

There are skills and abilities by the different professions that help with positioning, such as the Guardian's skill that makes bubble in which an opponent cannot move through. Also you have to keep in mind the unfamiliarity of the players with the combat system in those videos.

  Zeroxin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 2514

My words are not here to sway you,they are here to make you understand.

3/16/11 3:33:37 PM#28
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by romanator0

 Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

You need healers because you take damage. So you need someone to heal you up.

As I said in my Monk post pure healing is simply boring. Prevention of damage however is highly interesting. The thing about damage prevention though is that it's not limited to support classes.

Create a class like the protection monk which prevents damage by protective enchantments like protective spirit, bonds, guardian and shield of absorption.

Create a warrior class focussing on stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks. Make these skills PvE only ( reduced effect in PvP ) and make the goal of this class to constantly stun enemies though heavy attacks so they can't fight back and damage you. Enemy rushing a squishy? Knock them back 20 yards and get some breathing room. Lots of enemies around? Do an AoE stomp and stun them all. Big boss doing lots of damage? Chain your disables in such a way that the boss won't get a hit in. Important would be that this class would be low damage. His weapon are his disables. He's an offensive support class, not a damage dealer. Even in PvP he would still focus on disables but stuns could lost shorter while the remaining duration would become for example a slow ( 3 sec stun becomes a 0,5 sec stun with a 2,5 sec slow ).

Create a dark sorceror class focussing on curses and debuffs. Again a reduced effect in PvP but in PvE make cursed enemies miss nearly all the time, give him options to silence enemies for longer durations. Weaken enemeis greatly reducing their damage etc. Give them a variety of curses with a variety of effects that all reduce the damage output and effectiveness of enemies. In PvP the effects would be reduced but still viable. Say a 75% miss rate curse in PvE and 25% in PvP. Again low damage output.

The problem is that in the current holy trinity there generally are only 2 out of 10 specs that are unable to do any real damage. The tank and healer. The rest of the specs ( be it berserker warrior, smiting priest, fire mage, unholy necromancer etc. ) generally all focus on damage. You're left with a system that requires non-damage classes for team content but provides 80% of the classes as damage dealers. What you need is a system where the amount of damage dealers is greatly reduced. So that support characters aren't the few and far in between that make it possible for the DPS to enjoy the game but instead make up a far larger portion of the player base.

This would cause grouping on a much larger scale as many more players would need to group as they aren't all DPS classes who can solo just fine. If players continually group then it's no longer such a sacrifice to play a support role. Not to mention that the devs can put more resources in making support roles fun as they're no longer a small portion of the player base.

So essentially what GW2 is doing?

This is not a game.

  Shroom_Mage

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/05
Posts: 871

It's all or nothin'!

3/16/11 4:20:21 PM#29


Originally posted by gobla


Originally posted by romanator0
 Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?


You need healers because you take damage. So you need someone to heal you up.
As I said in my Monk post pure healing is simply boring. Prevention of damage however is highly interesting. The thing about damage prevention though is that it's not limited to support classes.
Create a class like the protection monk which prevents damage by protective enchantments like protective spirit, bonds, guardian and shield of absorption.
Create a warrior class focussing on stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks. Make these skills PvE only ( reduced effect in PvP ) and make the goal of this class to constantly stun enemies though heavy attacks so they can't fight back and damage you. Enemy rushing a squishy? Knock them back 20 yards and get some breathing room. Lots of enemies around? Do an AoE stomp and stun them all. Big boss doing lots of damage? Chain your disables in such a way that the boss won't get a hit in. Important would be that this class would be low damage. His weapon are his disables. He's an offensive support class, not a damage dealer. Even in PvP he would still focus on disables but stuns could lost shorter while the remaining duration would become for example a slow ( 3 sec stun becomes a 0,5 sec stun with a 2,5 sec slow ).
Create a dark sorceror class focussing on curses and debuffs. Again a reduced effect in PvP but in PvE make cursed enemies miss nearly all the time, give him options to silence enemies for longer durations. Weaken enemeis greatly reducing their damage etc. Give them a variety of curses with a variety of effects that all reduce the damage output and effectiveness of enemies. In PvP the effects would be reduced but still viable. Say a 75% miss rate curse in PvE and 25% in PvP. Again low damage output.
The problem is that in the current holy trinity there generally are only 2 out of 10 specs that are unable to do any real damage. The tank and healer. The rest of the specs ( be it berserker warrior, smiting priest, fire mage, unholy necromancer etc. ) generally all focus on damage. You're left with a system that requires non-damage classes for team content but provides 80% of the classes as damage dealers. What you need is a system where the amount of damage dealers is greatly reduced. So that support characters aren't the few and far in between that make it possible for the DPS to enjoy the game but instead make up a far larger portion of the player base.
This would cause grouping on a much larger scale as many more players would need to group as they aren't all DPS classes who can solo just fine. If players continually group then it's no longer such a sacrifice to play a support role. Not to mention that the devs can put more resources in making support roles fun as they're no longer a small portion of the player base.


The roles you describe are essentially what ANet is already doing with their "control" role. It's (hopefully) not enough to completely stunlock everything you encounter, so the effects don't need to be drastically reduced in PvP. Some of them are (such as fear), but in general, a knockback is a knockback.

A point I want to make, however, is that unless your crowd control is perfect, allowing you to "cheese" any fight, adding a dedicated healer will always make the fight easier, allowing you to handle more difficult encounters. Basically, take the best team you can come up with that doesn't have a healer, then throw in a healer, and it gets better every time.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  Leechx

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/09
Posts: 47

3/16/11 4:22:57 PM#30
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by romanator0

 Seeing as having dedicated healers and tanks are the problem, what kind of solution do you have other than completely removing them?

You need healers because you take damage. So you need someone to heal you up.

As I said in my Monk post pure healing is simply boring. Prevention of damage however is highly interesting. The thing about damage prevention though is that it's not limited to support classes.

Create a class like the protection monk which prevents damage by protective enchantments like protective spirit, bonds, guardian and shield of absorption.

Create a warrior class focussing on stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks. Make these skills PvE only ( reduced effect in PvP ) and make the goal of this class to constantly stun enemies though heavy attacks so they can't fight back and damage you. Enemy rushing a squishy? Knock them back 20 yards and get some breathing room. Lots of enemies around? Do an AoE stomp and stun them all. Big boss doing lots of damage? Chain your disables in such a way that the boss won't get a hit in. Important would be that this class would be low damage. His weapon are his disables. He's an offensive support class, not a damage dealer. Even in PvP he would still focus on disables but stuns could lost shorter while the remaining duration would become for example a slow ( 3 sec stun becomes a 0,5 sec stun with a 2,5 sec slow ).

Create a dark sorceror class focussing on curses and debuffs. Again a reduced effect in PvP but in PvE make cursed enemies miss nearly all the time, give him options to silence enemies for longer durations. Weaken enemeis greatly reducing their damage etc. Give them a variety of curses with a variety of effects that all reduce the damage output and effectiveness of enemies. In PvP the effects would be reduced but still viable. Say a 75% miss rate curse in PvE and 25% in PvP. Again low damage output.

The problem is that in the current holy trinity there generally are only 2 out of 10 specs that are unable to do any real damage. The tank and healer. The rest of the specs ( be it berserker warrior, smiting priest, fire mage, unholy necromancer etc. ) generally all focus on damage. You're left with a system that requires non-damage classes for team content but provides 80% of the classes as damage dealers. What you need is a system where the amount of damage dealers is greatly reduced. So that support characters aren't the few and far in between that make it possible for the DPS to enjoy the game but instead make up a far larger portion of the player base.

This would cause grouping on a much larger scale as many more players would need to group as they aren't all DPS classes who can solo just fine. If players continually group then it's no longer such a sacrifice to play a support role. Not to mention that the devs can put more resources in making support roles fun as they're no longer a small portion of the player base.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Every profession is versatile in the fact that they can do DAMAGE, CONTROL, and SUPPORT in their own way.  For instance, a Warrior's control would be more thinks like crippling the target and knocking them back compared to an Elementalist where they cast static electric fields around a target and stunning them if they exit the circle.  The same thing applies for damage and support.  I can list tons of instances where professions can do something differently and remain just as effective as another.  If every profession can do these three things then doesn't that generally form a balance between all of the professions?  Just because there is no dedicated healer class or no dedicated tank doesn't mean squat.  The PAX East Panel for GW2 that ANet provides.. they talk about all of that stuff and more.  Each class can tank in their own way as well.  To me, I am glad they are throwing away the holy trinity because it relies more on player skill of a profession rather than relying on a monk or a tank to keep you up.  Everyone can support eachother and so on.  Oh and also, professions can heal themselves/others in their own way as well so I don't understand why a monk would be a must either for a profession.  Guess it's personal opinion is what it comes down to but generally speaking those are the facts of the game.

  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 511

3/16/11 4:37:00 PM#31

I don't think some people here realize that you won't be able to do everything ALL AT ONCE!  There will be a minimal skill bar just like GW, and if it's anything like GW, you will have to focus your character on achieving one specific goal to make a good build.

 

Anyways, I love that they are moving towards a more Diablo style combat system rather than the *yawn* of the typical MMO combat.

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  stayBlind

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 511

3/16/11 4:40:25 PM#32
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by romanator0

Thats why dedicated healers are out. Anet doesn't want any one profession to be the "true backbone" of groups. They want everybody to work together rather than being dependent upon one person.

Exactly! I love GW but I have to say I hated the fact that I had to wait for a monk all the time....its not GW faults its the MMO genre.

Was it still that bad when heroes came?

I never played anything but a monk in the harder parts of the game so I'm not sure how the heroes compare but from what I heard from guildies they were quite fine even though you had to take more of them ( 3 heroes would do the work 2 player healers. )

I'd have preferred an option where you'd still have a dedicated healing class but also additional options. For example a serious controller/debuffer that prevent enough damage by disabling and debuffing enemies to make sure the team's small self-heals were enough.

I understand that requiring a healer isn't the perfect way to go. But removing the healer role totally just seems like the easy way out.

Heroes killed the game for me.  GW is nothing but a solo adventure now.

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  gobla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1414

C'est la vie.

3/16/11 4:53:12 PM#33
Originally posted by Shroom_Mage

The roles you describe are essentially what ANet is already doing with their "control" role. It's (hopefully) not enough to completely stunlock everything you encounter, so the effects don't need to be drastically reduced in PvP. Some of them are (such as fear), but in general, a knockback is a knockback.

A point I want to make, however, is that unless your crowd control is perfect, allowing you to "cheese" any fight, adding a dedicated healer will always make the fight easier, allowing you to handle more difficult encounters. Basically, take the best team you can come up with that doesn't have a healer, then throw in a healer, and it gets better every time.

From what I hear ANet is not going with any dedicated classes at all.

They're going with an each class can do a bit of everything system. Every class can heal a bit, every class can crowd control a bit etc.

And I think it's a shame that they're going that way. I ( personally ) enjoy dedicated classes.

And on your point:

Mobs would have to be balanced around this as well. The current MMO design of bosses hitting 50% of a tank's hp will not work. The current design of healers being able to heal 25% of a tank's hp in a single big heal will not work.

You first need to tone down healers. Currently they just heal way too much. They're basically providing unlimited HP while they still have mana. They need to be able to heal a limited amount but mostly focus on protection spells as I said previously.

You'd need a system that's built around player's slowly losing HP. Players should always end a battle with less HP than they started it with. Currently your tank either has 75%+ HP or he's dead.

A system in which the health bars of your party are constantly decreasing as well as those of your enemies. The trick is in making sure your enemies decrease faster. As such you'd need your standard DPS to make your enemies health go down, but that's only half. Next you need ways of making your own health go down slower. Not making it go all the way back up, just making it go down slower.

So you'd have small heals which can not be cast over and over and over again. But have to be used tactically when really needed to give a member who's especially low a small triage boost. You'd have protection spells which cause party members to take less damage. You'd have stuns which give you a break in receiving damage. You'd have debuffs which lead to enemies dealing less damage.

This way every member is working towards the common goal of making the enemy die faster than they're making you die. But without taking away dedicated classes. Each class has a real role and mechanic. Instead of every class having a diffirent gimmick of the same mechanic.

The only downside is that you'd no longer have big crits to show off in your youtube movies. But for me this would be a great tactical and interesting system.

Do note that I'm not saying GW2's system is bad. I'm just saying it's not a system I think I'll enjoy and that it's a shame that the cost of it is an amazing class like the monk not making it's return.

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  romanator0

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 2425

3/16/11 5:21:42 PM#34
Originally posted by Slaanesh24

I don't think some people here realize that you won't be able to do everything ALL AT ONCE!  There will be a minimal skill bar just like GW, and if it's anything like GW, you will have to focus your character on achieving one specific goal to make a good build.

 

Anyways, I love that they are moving towards a more Diablo style combat system rather than the *yawn* of the typical MMO combat.

Actually that is slightly wrong.

Each class except for the elementalist can equip 2 weapon sets at once and each weapon set changes the playstyle for the class. The elementalist is slightly different in that it can't switch between 2 weapon sets but 4 elemental attunements. This is also only your first 5 skills on your bar. Your 6th skill is a self heal, of which each profession has several. The next 3 are utility skills which all do different things. And your last skill is your elite skill, of which each profession will also have several of.

  Xzen

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Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

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3/16/11 5:34:54 PM#35

It would seem that their combat system requires you to block and move the hell out of the way of the next attack over spam healing. I likes it.

  xephonics

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/05
Posts: 683

3/16/11 5:56:35 PM#36

If every class can do just about every role in a team, why even have classes?

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  Kyleran

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3/16/11 6:01:33 PM#37
Originally posted by xephonics

If every class can do just about every role in a team, why even have classes?

Shhhh....don't point out the emperor has no clothes, he'll cut off your head.

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  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

3/16/11 6:05:55 PM#38
Originally posted by xephonics

If every class can do just about every role in a team, why even have classes?

hmm, because they wanted to? xD

Its a good question really, there are side reasons like Lore and precedence (GW1 had classes xD), but nothing that could be messed with...

 

Other may call the whole breaking of holy trinity a bullshit (like the guy above subletly did), but its more of a shattering of the healer/tank role, with the pieces being re-distributed to every class, Im very sure a Warrior can soak more damage than a elementalist, even due to wearing a heavy armor and the characteristics of close constant combat, but it does not mean the elementalist cant "tank" by other means 

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  xephonics

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/05
Posts: 683

3/16/11 6:12:38 PM#39

It is nice they are trying something newish, but would be nice just to go all the way and do away with classes.  They seem to be taking a step towards classless, but still trying to hold onto the class lovers at the same time.  I'm hoping it works for them :)

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  nomss

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/10
Posts: 1488

3/16/11 6:13:32 PM#40

I think there is holy trinity, but it's hidden quite well. It's not on surface as per say other games.

Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
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Everything We Know about GW2:
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