Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Irishoak

Originally posted by Lerxst

Originally posted by Irishoak

I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.

Right.  They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...

 

Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.

The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.

If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?

Originally posted by Irishoak

If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?

Maybe, but there have been many great games duringthe years of computer gaming and most games older than 5 years are just gone.

The truth is that there was some parts that the old games did better, while others were worse than the stuff we have today.

For one thing were the gameworlds generally a lot larger in the old games. And they were a lot more social. Waiting time on the other hand could be insane and most of those old games were really buggy and rather badly coded.

Some MMO devs should truly re evaluate all the features we seen both in old and new games, and then add some fun stuff from pen and paper RPGs as well adn merge that into a game.

I for one miss stuff like a really dark night where you actually had to use torches, it added a lot to the mood. Now darkness just doesn't exist. Also in the old games there were often a very different thingto be in a zone at the day from at night.

My point anyways is that just because those games isn't around anymore or have a few nostalgic players doesn't mean that todays games made everything better. In some cases have they cut out really good stuff.

It'd simple, Games were always released either too early(unfinished), with too litle content, broken game mechanics, or a mixture of all 3.

I can't recall a mmo between WoW and now that is as polished and fun as WoW. Blizzard grew each patch and revision to a game that cannot be matched unless a developer goes balls to the wall in terms of content and quality.

Fortunately Guild Wars 2 is comming out soon and it will definately steal a lot of WoW's limelight. It boasts a hige world, Awesome gameplay, and excellent replayability throuought the different classes, and most assuradely an engame PVP that will be as fun as GW1.

And SWTOR.

Between the 2 2011 will be the year WoW gets hurt bigtime.

Originally posted by grndzro

I can't recall a mmo between WoW and now that is as polished and fun as WoW. 

Guildwars. Yeah, it is a CORPG but it is actually close enough, I played it for 4 years. :)

But beside that, nothing comes to mind.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Irishoak

If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?

Maybe, but there have been many great games duringthe years of computer gaming and most games older than 5 years are just gone.

The truth is that there was some parts that the old games did better, while others were worse than the stuff we have today.

For one thing were the gameworlds generally a lot larger in the old games. And they were a lot more social. Waiting time on the other hand could be insane and most of those old games were really buggy and rather badly coded.

Some MMO devs should truly re evaluate all the features we seen both in old and new games, and then add some fun stuff from pen and paper RPGs as well adn merge that into a game.

I for one miss stuff like a really dark night where you actually had to use torches, it added a lot to the mood. Now darkness just doesn't exist. Also in the old games there were often a very different thingto be in a zone at the day from at night.

My point anyways is that just because those games isn't around anymore or have a few nostalgic players doesn't mean that todays games made everything better. In some cases have they cut out really good stuff.

And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again. I've had fun with new games and old games. To say games haven't advanced in the last seven years is ludicrous.  The technological advances alone are mindnumbing.

If you tried to tell me this:

Would one day be this:

I would have calmly explain where you could go, how you could get there and what you could do to yourself.

Larger isn't always better, heck game worlds seem much more expansive today than before, UO could have been huge but I rarely was wow'd by it. I have played some modern games and the vistas were "oh neat" moments. Plus travel speed was much slower, it made everything a hike. 

Dark night isn't a game breaker, turn down your contrast. 

The old games are gone for a reason. Bitching endlessly about new games sucking does nothing, as a matter of fact the constant complaints from the same sources over and over lead me to believe they need a new hobby, maybe retro gaming? Because it's to the point where I believe mental illness has set in for some of them.

A handful of people wishing to live in some sort of 8-bit ivory tower does not make the world. Me, I enjoyed games then, I enjoy them now, when I stop having fun I'll stop playing them. Some people have it set in their heart to be wretched.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by jpnz

If you compare WoW vanilla to WoW cata, the game mechanics has greatly increased with new innovative stuff being added.

Phasing, rated BG, different player/boss mechanics, difficulty mechanics (hard modes), in-game cinematics.

And that's just 'WoW'.

EVE, DarkFall etc is doing their own innovation. Despite the half-done-feature of CCP, there are plenty of innovation (it just lacks polish) from when it first launched.

 

Whether the changes are suited to your personal taste is another issue, but to say the genre hasn't moved forward for the past 7 years is wrong.

I'm sorry... did you just use WoW and innovative in the same sentence? Things may have been added to WoW, but they weren't new.

BGs aren't new.

Phasing isn't new to WoW

Difficulty settings aren't new

in game cinematics aren't new

Eve is of course an innovative game, but that is the exception, not the rule, same with Darkfall. These indie games innovative, and they can keep innovating all they want, but so long as mainstream MMOs ignore those innovations... no we haven't progressed, we've regressed.

While it might be 'cool' to bash a popular game to say WoW hasn't innovative the MMO genre is being very short sighted.

You really think we would have as many MMOs and investments in MMO if WoW didn't exists?

I'll give you that certain mechanics might have been done elsewhere but WoW is the only one that I can think of that does a lot of stuff with polish and execution.

Like I said before, whether a new feature suits your personal taste is a seperate issue. But to say MMOs haven't innovative since 7 years ago is factually wrong.

What I really don't get about the WoW-hate is this; I love MMOs and I want more people to play them. WoW did that more than any MMO on the market. So why the WoW-hate?

There's so little of anything new that even websites like MMORPG.com which used to be be fun to read are becoming boring as well because every subject has been rehashed time and again and there is nothing really new to talk about.

I'm almost hoping someone makes a titty slider thread or why men play female avatar threads...but I know it's only desperation on my part.  The fact is this genre feels as if it's in the shitter. 

Back when Precu SWG released I was blown away.  I used to imagine what games would be like years down the road, but little did I realize the genre would stagnate as it has.  Oh well...I have other hobbies but it's just a disappointment because the possibilites at the time had seemed endless, where as now they seem hopeless.

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

Originally posted by Axehilt

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.

There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.

Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).

I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.

So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.

i think they have only defined themself atm... from now on i think we will see progression.

Originally posted by Irishoak

And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again. 

Yes? I did say no such thing, I said some old game had some features right, nothing else. I also said some old games were really fun but not that old games were good.

Please don't try to read things like that from me, or perhaps you replied to the wrong post?

Anyone saying everything about new "X" sucks, old "X" are in every way superior is an old geezer far from reality, no matter of the subject. But everyone saying the opposite is just as bad, far from all old stuff is bad.

And you don't have to post pictures comparing old and new games, we know new games looks better.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Axehilt

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.

There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.

Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).

I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.

So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.

I'd expect lots more changes and new things to come out when the genre is new and just starting.

Just look at the new things that's coming out for the Iphone/Ipad games. 'lolcasual' all you want but that's the new genre right now and changes are happening rapidly.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Axehilt

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.

There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.

Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).

I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.

So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.

I'd expect lots more changes and new things to come out when the genre is new and just starting.

Just look at the new things that's coming out for the Iphone/Ipad games. 'lolcasual' all you want but that's the new genre right now and changes are happening rapidly.

while the technology of gaming has definitely evolved - graphically as well as sound, perhaps its because we as players havent evolved, we're still looking for the same kinds of 'thrills' that we were having when we first started playing..  its not so much new concepts in gaming that are required imo, but improved implementation of the ones we've already got..

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Axehilt

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.

There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.

Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).

I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.

So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.

So you're saying add "small innovation isn't innovation" to the list of ways the community is plugging its ears?  (Well this is already covered by the first bullet, I suppose.)

As for innovation slowing within a certain realm, isn't that just an obvious trait of innovation?  I mean...the first 10-50 years of the automobile industry were huge!  You certainly don't see that level of innovation happening nowadays.  Nevertheless people understand that it'd be silly to complain of such things -- especially since innovation still happens at a steady pace (in cars as well as MMORPGs.)

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Irishoak

And my point is not every new game is worse than an old game, there are pleanty of shitty old games. The way you people go on about it you'd think nothing was worth playing ever again. 

Yes? I did say no such thing, I said some old game had some features right, nothing else. I also said some old games were really fun but not that old games were good.

Please don't try to read things like that from me, or perhaps you replied to the wrong post?

Anyone saying everything about new "X" sucks, old "X" are in every way superior is an old geezer far from reality, no matter of the subject. But everyone saying the opposite is just as bad, far from all old stuff is bad.

And you don't have to post pictures comparing old and new games, we know new games looks better.

I posted  pictures because a lot of folks act like gaming has devolved so much it's just a guy sitting in a cave moving various sized rocks about. I replied to the right post, it's the way you come off. But back on track, MMOs have advanced in many ways.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Axehilt

This thread is just one old gamer plugging his ears going "NAHNAHNAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" to all of the myriad of little innovative features and non-standard MMOs that've released over the years.

Seriously, some of the posts have essentially been like 'Innovative Feature X?  That wasn't really innovative.'

Basically for the glass-half-empty MMO player:

• if it's NOT a complete game-changing feature, it isn't innovation,
• if it IS a complete game-changing feature, it isn't an MMORPG,
• therefore innovation has never and will never happen for MMORPGs.

No rational discussion can be had when you discuss this topic with those types of players.

There are the other type as well, that thinks adding some really small thing to any existing feature is complete innovation. It isn't.

Yes, there are still new ideas and features in MMOs but there have been rather few of the larger ones since Everquest. It added stuff like raids to the genre, that is a big innovation. Same goes for Eves experience model (you don't have to like it).

I started playing in '96 with M59 and there really were a lot more larger features added to the genre the time 1996-2004 than have been added since. There are a few like phasing and dynamical events, thay are big news, particularly if DE can take over after quests as ANET thinks.

So it is BS that MMOs havn't evolved at all the last 7 years, but new features and ideas are rarer now than in the early days, and that is not really good news since it could add more fun aspects to the genre.

So you're saying add "small innovation isn't innovation" to the list of ways the community is plugging its ears?  (Well this is already covered by the first bullet, I suppose.)

As for innovation slowing within a certain realm, isn't that just an obvious trait of innovation?  I mean...the first 10-50 years of the automobile industry were huge!  You certainly don't see that level of innovation happening nowadays.  Nevertheless people understand that it'd be silly to complain of such things -- especially since innovation still happens at a steady pace (in cars as well as MMORPGs.)

Indeed, I agree with everything said here.  (Just don't bring up cars! Uh-oh here come the car analogy wars. :(   )

They progressed on the technical side.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Venger

How much have they really changed since EQ was the mmo standard?

WoW didn't really bring anything new to the table really.

That really depends on which elements you focus on.  To me WoW brought great progress since it improved the game elements I cared about.  If teh progress is in areas you really do not care about it, you will not notice it or simply discount it.

So... you think WoW made progress because it... made MMOs smaller, more linear, and more single player?... why did you like MMos in the first place?

For me it made MMORPGs more expansive and accessible. Yes... to people who didn't like MMORPGs. To those that DID like MMORPGs... it took the game away from us.  I got to explore and access more of the game than I could in SWG or EVE. What does that have to do with anything WoW did?   It caused me to be more immersed in my characters. HAHA really? The floating !! over every NPC, the boring fetch quests, the instancing, that was immersive?   Before WoW, MMORPGs for me were starting to feel more and more stale and I was playing them for shorter and shorter lengths of time.  WoW brought a fresh way to play these games and got me hooked again on the format. Uh... How exactly?

Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

I think Auction Houses are pretty cool.

 

Beyond that, I can't think of anything truly innovative.

Those were in MMOs way over 7 years ago. As for chievements, also before WoW.

Originally posted by Irishoak

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Irishoak

Originally posted by Lerxst

Originally posted by Irishoak

I'm starting to think this is all we've talked about for seven years. Of course games have changed over the years.

Right.  They've added random mob spawns and more "bloom" over the years...

 

Games that are seven years old are available, feel free. Seems small minded to overlook all the advances in MMOs to seem superior on a forum.

The old MMOs no longer exist. Stop trying to pretend they do. If they did, we'd be playing them.

If you were playing them and they were superior, they would be around. I think you'd rather gripe than have fun. Or maybe that's how you have fun?

Oh good freaking LORD I am sick of WoW kiddies like you who came into the market a few years ago trying to tell ME what happened in the MMOs that I PLAYED MYSELF.

The old MMOs are gone for a number of reasons, none of them being "because they sucked". IF they sucked, they wouldn't have been such big successes when they came out. Many old MMOs have been patched or changed by bad developer decisions or expansions that take the game away from what it was originally. That's what happened with DAoC. That's what happened with UO, that's what happened with SWG. Others, simply aren't developed for anymore because the developers that made them tried to make sequels that were more like WoW, and that failed. That's what happened with Anarchy Online. That's what happened with Asheron's Call. That's what happened with Warhammer.

So please, stop speaking down to me and pretending you know better. If Dark Age of Camelot had a classic server set to before the game started crashing (2002) or there was a pre NGE SWG, you'd bet people would be playing them.