Originally posted by carrie01

As far as my question: Will it kill DDO? I understand that DDO has a lot going for it, such as a fun combat system and hand crafted dungeons designed to utilize your character's skills. After playing DDO for awhile, it does seem to me like many of the people who invest money in the game are D&D fans that are familiar with the rules. I think that the games will compete even though they will likely have drastically different gameplay because it will attract D&D fans. It boils down to which online D&D game is more fun and more entertaining to play with 3-6 people (which is what both will have incommon). However, DDO wil of course always get new players from being f2p but the game relies on long term players for its revenue.

One thing I am already worried about is that there is going to only be 5 job classes: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger, and Rogue. I hope that prestige classes will be available or that they will add bard and other types of mages as the game gets expanded. Otherwise, people may stick to DDO because it has excellent character customization and you can create your own 'prestige' classes (example, some people multiclass with rogue and choose feats to be a "Tempest" Ranger).

The character created content tools, which seems to be a no-brainer for an oline D&D game, might make or break this game. That part of it has got to be good.

 

Didn't 4e get rid of prestiege classes and bards? There are the Paragon Paths at lvl 30 now which are kind o like prestiege leves, but not really. 4e is actually going to be a big hurdle for any developer to overcome when making a DnD game. 

That is probably the case. I don't know 4e at all since everyone at my college plays using the old rules. I hope the paragon paths are fun... It's too bad about the bard though :( I also think the different prestige classes made D&D interesting and showed how much depth and customization was possible in D&D... Still, I love Forgotten Realms and if the gameplay is fun and I can still customize my character, I will be happy with it.

Nothing Cryptic makes will crush DDO.

See Champions Online, and Star Trek Online.

Originally posted by carrie01

That is probably the case. I don't know 4e at all since everyone at my college plays using the old rules. I hope the paragon paths are fun... It's too bad about the bard though :( I also think the different prestige classes made D&D interesting and showed how much depth and customization was possible in D&D... Still, I love Forgotten Realms and if the gameplay is fun and I can still customize my character, I will be happy with it.

That's one of the problems with 4e, it is not too old yet. 3 and 3.5 had so much depth built up because of how long they had been running. 4e is still a pup in many ways and so an DnD game based on it is going to suffer for that. But things can always grow. I think one of the invertives on Neverwinter said that the plan to add more classes after launch. The Player handbook has these classes for 4e - Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard.  So even with the five the plan to launch with they are missing Paladin, Warlock and Warlord. 

Though there are things I'm sure Cryptic will break with 4e on. For instance, everyone agrees the one thing they do well and right is character customization, so I doubt they will limit you to just the 4e races (Dragonborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Half-Elf, Halfling, Human, Tiefling). Knowing Cryptic they will probably even allow for a "create your own" sort of thing. 

Edit: I did some digging and Bard is in the Player Handbook 2, along with Avenger, Barbardian, Druid, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Warden. So There is plenty of room for class expansion. 

Originally posted by Robsolf

Nothing Cryptic makes will crush DDO.

See Champions Online, and Star Trek Online.

 While neither of those games will or could crush DDO, there is good reason and it has nothing to do with Cryptic. Using two games that share nothing with D&D does not really make a good point.

For me as a fan of D&D neither of those games would fill the D&D void. So I would not leave DDO for them, but if a better game based on D&D came along DDO could very well lose out to that. People tend to claim one game or another will ruin some game without looking at the fact that if the games have nothing in common they might not attract the same crowd.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Robsolf

Nothing Cryptic makes will crush DDO.

See Champions Online, and Star Trek Online.

 While neither of those games will or could crush DDO, there is good reason and it has nothing to do with Cryptic. Using two games that share nothing with D&D does not really make a good point.

 

For me as a fan of D&D neither of those games would fill the D&D void. So I would not leave DDO for them, but if a better game based on D&D came along DDO could very well lose out to that. People tend to claim one game or another will ruin some game without looking at the fact that if the games have nothing in common they might not attract the same crowd.

If you've heard of Star Trek, and you've heard of Champions, the PnP RPG, you know they have nothing to do with each other, either.

But STO and CO?  They share ALOT in common.  So yes, what I said is a VERY good point.  THE BEST POINT.  Which is, a game is only as good as its development team; no IP can change that.

It's not a question of, "if a new DnD MMO comes along, will it spell trouble for DDO?"  Sure it could.  But Cryptic is the developer making the new NWN online, and I'm telling you right now, it's going to be horrible.

Originally posted by Talonsin

Lets be honest, with Cryptic developing it you can be sure of a few things...

 

1. Item mall where performance enhancing items will be sold (phaser lance anyone?)

2. Races that should be part of the game will cost extra ($3 Klingons anyone?)

3. Exclusive items will only be exclusive for 30 to 90 days

4. It will be heavily instanced

5. There wont be much need to socialize

6. The game will sell for 90% off the retail price in 3 to 6 months time

7. It will launch with a lack of content

8. You will be able to hit max level in 2 weeks of normal playtime

 

It was already stated that this game was based off the same engine as Cryptics other games.  If you dont like Chapions Online or Star Trek Online, you probably will not like this one.

same with Turbine games for all 8 points

I really did enjoy the original neverwinter nights, but I will not touch this MMO version with a 10 Ft long pole if it's being made by cryptic.

Originally posted by Robsolf

If you've heard of Star Trek, and you've heard of Champions, the PnP RPG, you know they have nothing to do with each other, either.

But STO and CO?  They share ALOT in common.  So yes, what I said is a VERY good point.  THE BEST POINT.  Which is, a game is only as good as its development team; no IP can change that.

It's not a question of, "if a new DnD MMO comes along, will it spell trouble for DDO?"  Sure it could.  But Cryptic is the developer making the new NWN online, and I'm telling you right now, it's going to be horrible.

Yes, a game is as good as the team making it. And Cryptic have done a lot of junk.

But let's give them the benefit of a doubt, many companies started out making crappy game but got better later. Blizzards battlechess 2 anyone? (It was even just ported to PC by them, crappy game and not a good job on the porting either).

Cryptic could actually succed for the first time. If there is a IP that is hard to F¤%& up it is Forgotten realms. And sooner or later should their people actually get better, they should have enough XP to level up by now.

If they try to sell the game as P2P they will wipe. Total wipe even. But they might actually pull it off as a B2P if they learned their lesson, I at least still have some hope left. :)

Originally posted by carrie01

That is probably the case. I don't know 4e at all since everyone at my college plays using the old rules. I hope the paragon paths are fun... It's too bad about the bard though :( I also think the different prestige classes made D&D interesting and showed how much depth and customization was possible in D&D... Still, I love Forgotten Realms and if the gameplay is fun and I can still customize my character, I will be happy with it.

Yeah, and there is a good reason for that. 4th ed has been out for years but it was several step backwards. All my buddies play 3rd except one group that play AD&D 2ed.

Wizards of the coast noticed that a lot of people were playing Wow and decided that they were potential P&P buyers, so they reinvented the game just for them.

The greatest idea since someone invented "New Coke". ;(

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Robsolf

If you've heard of Star Trek, and you've heard of Champions, the PnP RPG, you know they have nothing to do with each other, either.

But STO and CO?  They share ALOT in common.  So yes, what I said is a VERY good point.  THE BEST POINT.  Which is, a game is only as good as its development team; no IP can change that.

It's not a question of, "if a new DnD MMO comes along, will it spell trouble for DDO?"  Sure it could.  But Cryptic is the developer making the new NWN online, and I'm telling you right now, it's going to be horrible.

Yes, a game is as good as the team making it. And Cryptic have done a lot of junk.

But let's give them the benefit of a doubt, many companies started out making crappy game but got better later. Blizzards battlechess 2 anyone? (It was even just ported to PC by them, crappy game and not a good job on the porting either).

Cryptic could actually succed for the first time. If there is a IP that is hard to F¤%& up it is Forgotten realms. And sooner or later should their people actually get better, they should have enough XP to level up by now.

If they try to sell the game as P2P they will wipe. Total wipe even. But they might actually pull it off as a B2P if they learned their lesson, I at least still have some hope left. :)

I'd like to believe that.  I really would.  I loved NWN, and was disappointed when DDO decided to go with Eberron.  I knew Greyhawk, for whatever reason, wasn't in the cards, but NWN I had true hopes for, because Ebberon just never flew with me now matter how many flying ships it threw at me.

But I haven't seen anything come from Cryptic that leads me to believe that they've changed their philosophy for designing, creating, and implementing games.  Not a thing.

Originally posted by Aconsar

Cryptic Studios you say?

 

I think we have your answer right there.

^^ this

Originally posted by Robsolf

I'd like to believe that.  I really would.  I loved NWN, and was disappointed when DDO decided to go with Eberron.  I knew Greyhawk, for whatever reason, wasn't in the cards, but NWN I had true hopes for, because Ebberon just never flew with me now matter how many flying ships it threw at me.

But I haven't seen anything come from Cryptic that leads me to believe that they've changed their philosophy for designing, creating, and implementing games.  Not a thing.

Lets make a deal: We wont preorder the game but at least sign up for the open beta and play it for at least one hour.

You got nothing to loose than but an afternoon.

Preordering it would be stupid but everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, at least as long as it doesn't cost me money. :)

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by carrie01

That is probably the case. I don't know 4e at all since everyone at my college plays using the old rules. I hope the paragon paths are fun... It's too bad about the bard though :( I also think the different prestige classes made D&D interesting and showed how much depth and customization was possible in D&D... Still, I love Forgotten Realms and if the gameplay is fun and I can still customize my character, I will be happy with it.

Yeah, and there is a good reason for that. 4th ed has been out for years but it was several step backwards. All my buddies play 3rd except one group that play AD&D 2ed.

Wizards of the coast noticed that a lot of people were playing Wow and decided that they were potential P&P buyers, so they reinvented the game just for them.

The greatest idea since someone invented "New Coke". ;(

Have to agree here, 3e was awesome, but then a lot of 2e players slated 3e for being shallow (no -ve armour class was one critique).

Personally, biowares nwn was my first outing online, I'd seriously love to see an updated version released, I'm not overly keen on what cryptic have in mind although it "sounds" more in keeping with biowares baby!

Can see this project sinking with all the other stuff surfacing lately.

Originally posted by project8six

Originally posted by Aconsar

Cryptic Studios you say?

 

I think we have your answer right there.

^^ this

Bingo. 

Not too mention I don't think anyone can name one MMO that killed another. EQ and DAoC are still chugging along like a 102 year old person. Dead? Nope, but damn close.

I've been trying to track down the exact quote from Emmert about it being an OMG (Online Multi-player game) instead of an MMO. 

The reason I've been trying to find this is because I think for DnD to work online it needs to be about the group you game with. My joys of sitting around the table trying to roll twenties are even more about the people I played with as they were about game as itself. While sometimes guilds in traditional MMO's can help you recapture this feeling, it is never exactly the same. 

I will suggest right now that Neverwinter's success or failure will have less to do with the conetent and more to do how well they can capture the comraderie of  pen and paper session. Again, I think if Cryptic is well suited to build any game it might be a D&D game because of their focus on instances. I wouldn't expect to see epic raids in Neverwinter and personally that is out of place for a D&D game. Now, they might very well fail, it is not beyond the realm of possibilties at all, but I think they have a better chance with this one than they did with STO, or even Champions. 

STO was a rush job that they promised CBS and Atari they'd get done in less than 2 years. Champions was going to be a Marvel game until Marvel pulled out, so both of those games had horrible development stories. Perhaps not having that kind of drama will be a blessing for Cryptic. 

Originally posted by Leoghan

I've been trying to track down the exact quote from Emmert about it being an OMG (Online Multi-player game) instead of an MMO. 

The reason I've been trying to find this is because I think for DnD to work online it needs to be about the group you game with. My joys of sitting around the table trying to roll twenties are even more about the people I played with as they were about game as itself. While sometimes guilds in traditional MMO's can help you recapture this feeling, it is never exactly the same. 

I will suggest right now that Neverwinter's success or failure will have less to do with the conetent and more to do how well they can capture the comraderie of  pen and paper session. Again, I think if Cryptic is well suited to build any game it might be a D&D game because of their focus on instances. I wouldn't expect to see epic raids in Neverwinter and personally that is out of place for a D&D game. Now, they might very well fail, it is not beyond the realm of possibilties at all, but I think they have a better chance with this one than they did with STO, or even Champions. 

STO was a rush job that they promised CBS and Atari they'd get done in less than 2 years. Champions was going to be a Marvel game until Marvel pulled out, so both of those games had horrible development stories. Perhaps not having that kind of drama will be a blessing for Cryptic. 

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinter/news.html?sid=6274162&mode=previews&tag=topslot;thumb;1

http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/08/23/cryptic-and-atari-announce-neverwinter/

Jack Emmert: I wouldn't say MMORPG at all--Neverwinter is a cooperative RPG. You can play with a bunch of friends and experience Neverwinter and D&D in a brand-new way. We're trying to create new sorts of games that we call "OMGs" (online multiplayer games).

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Robsolf

I'd like to believe that.  I really would.  I loved NWN, and was disappointed when DDO decided to go with Eberron.  I knew Greyhawk, for whatever reason, wasn't in the cards, but NWN I had true hopes for, because Ebberon just never flew with me now matter how many flying ships it threw at me.

But I haven't seen anything come from Cryptic that leads me to believe that they've changed their philosophy for designing, creating, and implementing games.  Not a thing.

Lets make a deal: We wont preorder the game but at least sign up for the open beta and play it for at least one hour.

You got nothing to loose than but an afternoon.

Preordering it would be stupid but everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt, at least as long as it doesn't cost me money. :)

I'm with you. As much as I dislike Cryptic now, I will give them the benefit of the doubt one more time -- just because my loyalty to D&D out weighs my disgust.

I imagine it will be an online co-op dungeon crawler. There will be an area where you see people hanging around, but there won't be much there except for quest givers, shops, etc kind of like a traditional mmo town. I can't see them making a huge explorable world. Whenever you do a quest you probably just teleport to an instance or travel to somewhere in the town to enter it. You'll get auto-grouped if other people are trying to do the same instance, unless you're in a premade group. The instances will likely scale in difficulty according to the size of the group.

This of course isn't based on any actual knowledge but looking at Cryptics track record it seems like the direction they were heading. I picture it like STO without the pointless traveling around space to get from instance instance. I just hope they get a little more creative with their quests.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Robsolf

Nothing Cryptic makes will crush DDO.

See Champions Online, and Star Trek Online.

 While neither of those games will or could crush DDO, there is good reason and it has nothing to do with Cryptic. Using two games that share nothing with D&D does not really make a good point.

 

For me as a fan of D&D neither of those games would fill the D&D void. So I would not leave DDO for them, but if a better game based on D&D came along DDO could very well lose out to that. People tend to claim one game or another will ruin some game without looking at the fact that if the games have nothing in common they might not attract the same crowd.

If you've heard of Star Trek, and you've heard of Champions, the PnP RPG, you know they have nothing to do with each other, either.

But STO and CO?  They share ALOT in common.  So yes, what I said is a VERY good point.  THE BEST POINT.  Which is, a game is only as good as its development team; no IP can change that.

It's not a question of, "if a new DnD MMO comes along, will it spell trouble for DDO?"  Sure it could.  But Cryptic is the developer making the new NWN online, and I'm telling you right now, it's going to be horrible.

 Either you missed the point or you ignored it. The two games you named are both by Cryptic but neither of them would ever kill DDO because they attract different crowds. If Cryptic makes a great D&D MMO it certainly could hurt DDO, unlike either game you named.

Without testing the game your point is simply biased hate and not based in reality. If Cryptic sucks so bad how are they still in business and getting to create new games? Reality tells us you are wrong.