During the 2011 GDC last week, Blizzard ran a panel to take a look back at World of Warcraft: Cataclysm and what the team learned during the process of developing the latest expansion. Check out what the Blizzard team had to say about Cataclysm in MMORPG.com Industry Relations Manager Garrett Fuller's report and then let us know what you think.

It is a rare treat when Blizzard presents a panel at GDC. This year they had several, one of which was a look back at Cataclysm and what the team had learned in the process of making the expansion. Tom Chilton, Lead Producer on the game gave the talk which focused on three main areas that the team felt ran the scope of the changes. Desolace, WestFall and the Talent Tree changes were the highlight of the session, showing what the team got wrong, right, and how they felt the new changes really brought the game to a great place for players.

Read more of Garrett Fuller's GDC 2011 - Cataclysm Post Mortem.

This didn't mention anything about what they did wrong.  How about the fact that once you hit 60 outlands and northrend feel like you are stepping back in time and it feels a complete waste to level from 60-80.  Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase.  To me these are glaring issues with WoW and it won't be FUN again until these 2 aspects are changed.

I couldn't agree more.

Developers as a whole are nothing but lazy assed gits.  Incapable of developing an end game that isn't completely focused on PvE and PvP based raiding.

What they should have done was kept the old world intact for 1-60 then when you complete northrend and return to the old world then phase it to the way it is now in cata but with levels 80-100.  They already have the quests and content of the cataclysm so it's just a matter of changing levels.  

That way you have more levels, more end game content and it preserves the storyline as well.

Originally posted by elocke

Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase. 

What do you want Blizzard to do here?  Make raiding easier?  Why cater to a more casual group of players when they have their own content tuned to them (normal 5-mans and heroic 5-mans)?  Why cater to casual players when old content is always retuned to cater to them anyway?  What would raiders do if they could clear the newest dungeon even more quickly than they do now?

 

Archer, that's just brilliant. And it would make sense lore-wise. I too felt frustrated after having rerolled for the 100th time only to feel depressed just thinking about having to go through BC & Northrend again. Funny how Azeroth appeals to me (i.e. Vanilla WoW) but afterwards it feels like a burden.

Also what killed it for me is the endless dungeon runs right before Cata to stuff all your chars, only to realize that again the first green pyjama-style drop was just outdating it all. They made the mistake with BC and I had expected from Blizzard that they wouldn't do it again. Boy I was wrong.

Originally posted by elocke

This didn't mention anything about what they did wrong.  How about the fact that once you hit 60 outlands and northrend feel like you are stepping back in time and it feels a complete waste to level from 60-80.  Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase.  To me these are glaring issues with WoW and it won't be FUN again until these 2 aspects are changed.

 

To me, the biggest issue with CATA was the fact that most people exhausted the CATA 80-85 content in less than 2 months and all the sudden the grind/gear replacement became a glaring issue. I had played since launch and this was the first time I felt that is was ridiculous for me to replace gear that I worked hard on for over 1 year only to start that whole process over AGAIN in less than 8 weeks. I felt cheated and I left WOW and have been WOW-less since early January (the longest unsubscribed period in 6 years!).

Originally posted by Elidien

Originally posted by elocke

This didn't mention anything about what they did wrong.  How about the fact that once you hit 60 outlands and northrend feel like you are stepping back in time and it feels a complete waste to level from 60-80.  Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase.  To me these are glaring issues with WoW and it won't be FUN again until these 2 aspects are changed.

 

To me, the biggest issue with CATA was the fact that most people exhausted the CATA 80-85 content in less than 2 months and all the sudden the grind/gear replacement became a glaring issue. I had played since launch and this was the first time I felt that is was ridiculous for me to replace gear that I worked hard on for over 1 year only to start that whole process over AGAIN in less than 8 weeks. I felt cheated and I left WOW and have been WOW-less since early January (the longest unsubscribed period in 6 years!).

 Could'nt agree more .I did try starting a new character going through the revamped old world but it seamed too similar in general and not at all what I'd been hoping for . Still all is not lost theres RIFT now :) .

What they SHOULD have done is change progression to make it easier for more casual players to see endgame content, while keeping the challenge there for the more 'hardcore' raiders.

Right now, its: Normal Dungeons - Heroic Dungeons - Raids - Heroic Raids

It should be changed to: Normal Dungeons - Normal Raids - Heroic Dungeons - Heroic Raids

This would allow more casual folks to actually SEE endgame content (for story purposes and such), while keeping the challenge/increased rewards there for those who want it. Obviously, there should be some overlap for those who want to skip normal raids and go straight for heroic dungeons, but normal dungeon gear should be sufficient for the 'regular' raid content.

Grinding up normals to run heroics, then grinding heroics to run raids just isn't fun. I've already run those dungeons 500 goddamn times, now I have to run the 'harder' versions 500 more times just to have a chance to see how the story progresses? No, thank you.

Originally posted by Elidien

Originally posted by elocke

This didn't mention anything about what they did wrong.  How about the fact that once you hit 60 outlands and northrend feel like you are stepping back in time and it feels a complete waste to level from 60-80.  Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase.  To me these are glaring issues with WoW and it won't be FUN again until these 2 aspects are changed.

 

To me, the biggest issue with CATA was the fact that most people exhausted the CATA 80-85 content in less than 2 months and all the sudden the grind/gear replacement became a glaring issue. I had played since launch and this was the first time I felt that is was ridiculous for me to replace gear that I worked hard on for over 1 year only to start that whole process over AGAIN in less than 8 weeks. I felt cheated and I left WOW and have been WOW-less since early January (the longest unsubscribed period in 6 years!).

 

I would hardly say that Wrath of the Lich King (especially end game ICC gear) was hard to obtain.  Maybe I am unclear exactly what issue you are talking about, but I'd feel pretty cheated if I purchased an expansion and had to use my old (ugly) ICC25 heroic gear for another six months.

Originally posted by Rednecksith

What they SHOULD have done is change progression to make it easier for more casual players to see endgame content, while keeping the challenge there for the more 'hardcore' raiders.

Right now, its: Normal Dungeons - Heroic Dungeons - Raids - Heroic Raids

It should be changed to: Normal Dungeons - Normal Raids - Heroic Dungeons - Heroic Raids

This would allow more casual folks to actually SEE endgame content (for story purposes and such), while keeping the challenge/increased rewards there for those who want it. Obviously, there should be some overlap for those who want to skip normal raids and go straight for heroic dungeons, but normal dungeon gear should be sufficient for the 'regular' raid content.

Grinding up normals to run heroics, then grinding heroics to run raids just isn't fun. I've already run those dungeons 500 goddamn times, now I have to run the 'harder' versions 500 more times just to have a chance to see how the story progresses? No, thank you.

 

How quickly people forget.  In about three months there will be a new content patch and the old tier will be handed out via justice points.  If all you are interested in is story and you claim to be casual, wouldn't it be the same if you experienced the content a few months later than those who enjoy a challenge?

Originally posted by elocke

This didn't mention anything about what they did wrong.  How about the fact that once you hit 60 outlands and northrend feel like you are stepping back in time and it feels a complete waste to level from 60-80.  

Not sure what you mean by a complete waste... If you mean outdated.... well...people whined that they revamped  1-60 proclaiming that no one cared about that. Do you want them to revamp 60-80 as well?  I can already see the torches! 

Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase.  

Dunno about dull but hardcore? I am confused. In vanilla everyone was screaming that Blizzard was catering only to the hardcore. Then in TBC it was eased a bit. In WOTLK it was made accessible to casual players and everyone was screaming that it was super easy and that they wanted the game to be difficult etc. People have no effin idea what they want do they :)

To me these are glaring issues with WoW and it won't be FUN again until these 2 aspects are changed.

never even got into Raids .. ( was always the gearscore blah blah.. my realm demanded 6k gs for lich king normal) 

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by elocke

Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase. 

What do you want Blizzard to do here?  Make raiding easier?  Why cater to a more casual group of players when they have their own content tuned to them (normal 5-mans and heroic 5-mans)?  Why cater to casual players when old content is always retuned to cater to them anyway?  What would raiders do if they could clear the newest dungeon even more quickly than they do now?

 

I'm not sure but I think he means more like "it hasnt changed as in it's still the same we had in vanilla", that is instanced raiding. After 3 expansions it's still the same instanced raiding with new textures, some mechanics and gear treadmill. It would be cool to have MORE ways to play end game. Is instanced raiding the ONLY endgame possible in the whole mmorpg business?

Also how can the article say "The actual world of Azeroth remains one of WoW’s strongest assets" when it has only ONE purpose. To be a leveling vessel. After you are done leveling the world is only a lobby where you wait to get into instanced-whatever. I wouldnt even call it mmorpg when you could just after max level have lobby where you log in and wait to get to PvE/PvP instance. You NEED endgame meaning for the world too, not just a leveling place that is useless after max level. World PvP objectives and rewards in the actual world and PvE objectives besides leveling too. A lot of it instead of this Cataclysm model where it is COMPLETELY absent.

It's a mmorpg where you dont need to move an inch in the open world after you hit max level. I would understand that if there were world-content in this game too, equal amount (you know, it's open world mmo and all) but no, instead instances are the ONLY content. Even the "openworld" PvP zones (WG and Tol Barad) are instanced where you que+teleport. That's just stupid, call that an open world + mmorpg.

I'm so glad there's vast amount of mmo titles coming without this aproach only, to a mmorpg gaming. If you want 100% instance ran game leave the openworld out of it as a bait and just admit it's a lobby->action->lobby multiplayer with a guild chat.

Just stating what it is in essence, and what direction Cata brought it even more. Heck maybe they even add the lobby option for those who dont like to idle in cities while waiting for instance to pop :) Login screen with guild chat and instance/raid finder, a winner idea? :D

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by elocke

Or how about how boring and dull endgame is because it hasn't changed at all and only caters to the overly hardcore raiding playerbase. 

What do you want Blizzard to do here?  Make raiding easier?  Why cater to a more casual group of players when they have their own content tuned to them (normal 5-mans and heroic 5-mans)?  Why cater to casual players when old content is always retuned to cater to them anyway?  What would raiders do if they could clear the newest dungeon even more quickly than they do now?

 

 

I'm not sure but I think he means more like "it hasnt changed as in it's still the same we had in vanilla", that is instanced raiding. After 3 expansions it's still the same instanced raiding with new textures, some mechanics and gear treadmill. It would be cool to have MORE ways to play end game. Is instanced raiding the ONLY endgame possible in the whole mmorpg business?

I guess I can't really speak to the whole idea of innovating within MMORPGs.  I play video games (especially fantasy games) to kill things in caves/dungeons.  I've always enjoyed it, and so the whole idea that there isn't another avenue (besides pvp arena/rated BG) never really crossed my mind.

The current raid content is by far some of the best tuned content I've experienced.  Killing Nefarian really made my entire raid group have to step up and play well.  It was awesome finally killing him and I wasn't thinking "Man, I wish that we had some other thing to do". 

Also how can the article say "The actual world of Azeroth remains one of WoW’s strongest assets" when it has only ONE purpose. To be a leveling vessel. After you are done leveling the world is only a lobby where you wait to get into instanced-whatever. I wouldnt even call it mmorpg when you could just after max level have lobby where you log in and wait to get to PvE/PvP instance. You NEED endgame meaning for the world too, not just a leveling place that is useless after max level. World PvP objectives and rewards in the actual world and PvE objectives besides leveling too. A lot of it instead of this Cataclysm model where it is COMPLETELY absent.

Again, I can't really speak to this issue. I have played games with non-instanced content that occured in the outside world and I had very bad experiences with it.  For every person who wants to have valuable time in the game world, there are 150 people who just want to tag the enemies for their loot.  I just can't imagine this being inserted now.

As far as the game world being a lobby, I really think that's changed a bit since cata.  Dalaran was, for all intensive purposes, a waiting room with a badly abused chat feature.  This was changed (somewhat) during cata.  Now, the opposing factions cannot interact in a max level area with no threat of pvp breaking out.   I really think that's a step in the right direction.

Often I will leave Orgrimmar and go work on other things.  The whol Tol Barad area is very nicely done (besides one awful escort quest).  It really is a throw back to the isle of quel'danas, a lot of quests in a small area that give good rewards and aren't instanced.

 

It's a mmorpg where you dont need to move an inch in the open world after you hit max level. I would understand that if there were world-content in this game too, equal amount (you know, it's open world mmo and all) but no, instead instances are the ONLY content. Even the "openworld" PvP zones (WG and Tol Barad) are instanced where you que+teleport. That's just stupid, call that an open world + mmorpg.

 You are correct that you do not have to leave the main city once you've hit max level, but it isn't advised.  There are plenty of things to do outside of sitting around org waiting for a heroic/raid.  If you've hit max level and can't figure out something fun to do while you wait in a queue, that isn't totally Blizzard's fault.

I'm so glad there's vast amount of mmo titles coming without this aproach only, to a mmorpg gaming. If you want 100% instance ran game leave the openworld out of it as a bait and just admit it's a lobby->action->lobby multiplayer with a guild chat.

 This is where you lose me.  I really don't think the new crop of MMORPGs are going to give you the experience you seem to be looking for.  What most people get out of the new games that launch is the "new factor" followed by two months of play time and then the same problem "not enough content for me".  The reason I enjoy WoW is because it isn't a lack of content, but more the difficulty of the current content.

Just stating what it is in essence, and what direction Cata brought it even more. Heck maybe they even add the lobby option for those who dont like to idle in cities while waiting for instance to pop :) Login screen with guild chat and instance/raid finder, a winner idea? :D

What you are describing here is Guild Wars, not World of Warcraft.  The problem you seem to keep going back to is a purely player choice problem.  You are sitting in a city when there is a world around you that you can explore and kill things in.  Heck, there is even a new tradeskill that gives you something to fly around and do while the queue is ticking. 

 

For me the new heroic dungeons were to much. I don't want a second job, and I don't want to have to do "trial and error" play till a group I'm in gets it right or figures out the mechanics, or has the right combo of classes, or has the right CC. Also most of the "wow" factor I got from the heroic dungeons was "Wow what a waste of time :p"

So....I had fun while it lasted, but for now I'm having a better time in a new game called RIFT.

The issues that face WoW are obviously complex, and multi-faceted. And for that reason, I am not going to create some wall of text to try and tackle the beast. But I'll say this much:

- A lot fo what you see wrong or right in the game seems to have a *lot* to do with when you first started playing. I have heard the term "Wrath-babies" and though it usually used in a derogatory manner, it points out the fact that people who joined during Wrath joined during the easiest faceroll period in WoW ever. GC may be a dick, but he was right: Wrath heroics were loot pinatas churning out tokens. Cata was no doubt going to shock "Wrath-babies".

- People, such as myself and several from my guild, joined during beta or shortly after. The perspective with us is that even though Cata signals a return to more challenging content, it's too little, too late now. While the difficulty in vanilla was definitely frustrating at times, many of us just let it slide, because we were so in love with the game at that time. It was new and fresh. Now, vanilla-difficulty feels arduous, not because we're lazy and want thing handed to us a la Wrath, but because we're just tired of the game now. It's well-worn mechanics are simply old, and no fresh content or new coat of paint will change the core mechanics of it.

- People that joined during TBC seem to fall either way, but also understand that TBC heroics were like Cata heroics are now: hard. They also know that Wrath's.....weren't.

- By the end of Wrath, everyone, even the newest people, were walking around in pallette-swapped gear or the genuine raid-level stuff. I couldn't be bothered to name the gear-sets, because by that time no one cared. In vanilla, everyone knew "oh that guy's wearing Wrath, clearly a BWL guild" or "that guy is wearing Plagueheart, clearly a Naxx guild". By the time Wrath hit it's stride, it just didn't seem to matter anymore. And when most things stop mattering, like classes or gear(because both have been homogenized to death now), why do you even bother to achieve?

All of this is simply an opinion, and not meant o offend. I believe people should have to put time to have special things. I believe that special things should be rare. I believe that a player should not be punished for not playing 40 hours a week as well. You can't tell me a better balance could not be found.

There's nothing wrong with WoW or Cataclysm. It's just the people who play WoW. I hope to God Blizzard succeeded with Cataclysm and those players who make WoW such a miserable experience for others are content with the game and stay quarantined in it.

I recently just quit wow. I've come to the realization that it's just too much work.  I have friends and coworkers to play with but they have all surpassed me in gear. In order to play the content with them I have grind dailies, I need rep gear, I need gold, I need mats for flasks,  none of that is fun but it needs to be done for me to progress further.  Sitting in a 40 minute queue to do a 2 hour heroic isn't fun. 

I also have kids so I can't dedicate the kind of time I need to in order to keep up.  I enjoy leveling, I have 4 85's.  It's something I can do on my own with no pressure from others and at my leisure so it works out well.  

So seeing as the game as become work and it just isn't fun to do that work I went ahead and cancelled my account.  I love MMO's and have been playing them since the mid 90's but my life just doesn't allow the time these types of games require. And I no longer have the willpower for endless grinds.  If it's not fun i'm simply not going to do it anymore.

Looking forward to Planetside 2 and Guild Wars though.  Planetside because I can just jump in a shoot a few guys and there's no grinding and guild wars because they promise no grind and there's no monthly fee to make me feel obligated to play.