Originally posted by Solestran

I doubt games that have been or will be innovative will have failed as a result of that innovation, but rather likely due to it's implementation or the lack of quality of the overall game.

Bingo

Originally posted by Aganazer

As a board game designer...

You, sir, have a damn cool job!

Threads like these make me pretty angry.

Mostly because it reminds me of the sad reality that 9/10 mmo's that come out end up being extremely boring to me, and the 1/10 that end up being really fun end up dying a painful death.

Two other things that always come up in these threads:

Younger/Newer people to the genre shitting all over the people that helped make the genre popular in the first place.

People with no knowledge of statitics claiming that the vocal minority is completely irrelevent. - This notion is total BS, and making the claim in the first place spotlights your ignorance. Now, I'm not saying that the vocal minority is 100% accurate, but there are methods of surveying that could provide accurate data and prove/disprove the relevance of the claims of the people.

Well, I've been asking for something a little different.  I always wanted something more action orientated.  I tried DCUO and was surprized by it.  It has problems but I'm still playing it. 

I think a lot of people don't know what they want.  Me personally... I'm all for different as long as it's fun.  I was tired of the same old shit. 

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Loke666

As for the games you mention, I dunno about Ryzom but Vanguard fail because of terrible coding while TCoS failed because it had no content whatsoever and the idea behind the combat system was sound but it was too simple and not fun enough.

But that's the thing indeed. I think that the vast majority of MMO gamers, not only the ones who played WoW, want content and polish above innovation, no matter what's being said on forums like these.

Content and polish are the primary wish of most MMO gamers, innovation maybe a second or tertiary.

At least, that's what the past years have shown.

If that priority list was different than it really is with innovation on top of the wishlist, then those different MMO's would have fared a lot better and people would've stuck out and coped with the lack in content or the bugs, just because of what the game else had to offer that was a different experience from the 'WoW clone' model.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Right now the problem is the companies with the resources to bring a smooth, polished MMORPG out are all tied to the standard theme park model leaving any attempts at real innovation to underfunded indie developers who can't bring to bear enough resources to make a truely engaging game.  (outside of the Citadel of Sorcery team who claims to have virtually unlimited funding and are allegedly developing an MMORPG that is totally different from anything else out there.  We'll see)

Good point. There WAS more experimenting in the 1997-2005 period, with a lot more variation in the MMO's even if there were fewer of them.

Main problem is also that the cost of making an MMO has risen compared to when relatively small companies as Verant and others could jump in and make an MMORPG. The ones that do have the money all seemed tied up to the themepark model. Luckily there are a number of high-resource companies who're trying something different, like ArcheAge, GW2, Firefall, TSW, WoD and such seem to promise.

An emphasis on the time period you mentioned.  Before the MMORPG genre was clearly dominated by a single game.

My guess is that trying something different is deemed risky.  If it doesn't follow the success model, i.e. WoW, then good luck in getting the money to even work on a game that doesn't follow that model.

Innovation and variety essentially died in the genre years ago.  With WoW's success, everyone dropped what they were doing to "Be Like Mike."

I mean, look at SWTOR.  BioWare, no slouches in the video game business themselves, went out of their way in openly declaring how much their game is going to appeal to WoW players (i.e. be like WoW), and going so far as to say that trying anything different is stupid.

I did not read anything in the thread, and for that I apologize.  However, based off the thread title alone I will say this:

Because 10-15 very vocal people complaining that games are not innovative on a forum is not a large enough market for a $50-100 million game...

...in otherwords, they do not crave innovation - they crave a slow but pretty evolution of what they already have.

Most attempts at innovation fail to provide the basic needs at a comfortable level.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Loke666

As for the games you mention, I dunno about Ryzom but Vanguard fail because of terrible coding while TCoS failed because it had no content whatsoever and the idea behind the combat system was sound but it was too simple and not fun enough.

But that's the thing indeed. I think that the vast majority of MMO gamers, not only the ones who played WoW, want content and polish above innovation, no matter what's being said on forums like these.

Content and polish are the primary wish of most MMO gamers, innovation maybe a second or tertiary.

At least, that's what the past years have shown.

If that priority list was different than it really is with innovation on top of the wishlist, then those different MMO's would have fared a lot better and people would've stuck out and coped with the lack in content or the bugs, just because of what the game else had to offer that was a different experience from the 'WoW clone' model.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Right now the problem is the companies with the resources to bring a smooth, polished MMORPG out are all tied to the standard theme park model leaving any attempts at real innovation to underfunded indie developers who can't bring to bear enough resources to make a truely engaging game.  (outside of the Citadel of Sorcery team who claims to have virtually unlimited funding and are allegedly developing an MMORPG that is totally different from anything else out there.  We'll see)

Good point. There WAS more experimenting in the 1997-2005 period, with a lot more variation in the MMO's even if there were fewer of them.

Main problem is also that the cost of making an MMO has risen compared to when relatively small companies as Verant and others could jump in and make an MMORPG. The ones that do have the money all seemed tied up to the themepark model. Luckily there are a number of high-resource companies who're trying something different, like ArcheAge, GW2, Firefall, TSW, WoD and such seem to promise.

An emphasis on the time period you mentioned.  Before the MMORPG genre was clearly dominated by a single game.

My guess is that trying something different is deemed risky.  If it doesn't follow the success model, i.e. WoW, then good luck in getting the money to even work on a game that doesn't follow that model.

Innovation and variety essentially died in the genre years ago.  With WoW's success, everyone dropped what they were doing to "Be Like Mike."

I mean, look at SWTOR.  BioWare, no slouches in the video game business themselves, went out of their way in openly declaring how much their game is going to appeal to WoW players (i.e. be like WoW), and going so far as to say that trying anything different is stupid.

They said they were following WoW rules meaning Polish and releasing the game when its ready. If that makes it WoW like than so be it.

I would rather have a good WoW Clone than so called innovation that has already been done in none mmos.

I wish you would've read my post that's two posts above yours.

Good god the ignorance is soaring high.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Something I've been wondering about for a while now, especially since I started reading the mmorpg.com forums where you hear the cry for innovation and the branding of 'WoW clone' of every themepark MMO so much more than on other sites.

 

I mean, everyone wants to be pleasantly surprised by something different or new, especially after playing years of MMO's. I have it myself, only not to the point that I started disliking themepark MMO's.

But I am puzzled by the discrepancy, the gap between reality and perceived preferences of the MMO playerbase:

if so many MMO gamers really want something new, innovative and/or different, then why is it that the really different MMO's failed?

And why is it that MMO gamers craving for something different aren't playing them now? Except for TCOS ofc that has been cancelled.

I would be playing the fail games if they didnt fail at the basic level. It's not really the fault of the "innovative" design of the game if it fails, when the basic elements are lacking and are poor. Bad animation, graphics, effects, low quality this and that and whatnot. Make innovative mmorpg, bring a lot of new toys to the table, but first make the basics working and smooth.

I enjoy Rift at the moment because it's polished, and it's animation, graphics etc etc works above average at least, what I dont like about it, is the fact that I feel like playing every other mmorpg I've grown bored already when I'm in Rift, there's nothing "innovative" in it to make it shine out, but it works. The situation proves in my case at least that polish is enough to get going strong, though I doubt it will fly far for me. Now make the same and add to the gameplay and make it feel different. I dont mind similar/same gameplay, as long as the rest of the world and content does not feel "the same" (you know, quest structure, instances, raids, the basic stuff and structure that for some reason seems to be the only way to make a mmorpg these days according to most devs).

I dont really even like the idea of innovative being something really different and twisted, but rather the same with everything improved and added. To not be so simple as every other title the past 10 years. To break the pattern of making games that has "the basic features" (bg's, instance, the way quests work) and instead alter and add to the pattern. I sigh every time I enter the new mmorpg and within the first hour I find out that the "new" game has every same and similar feature in the same order and functionality as the one before that had.

TOR seems to be bringing the same gameplay, but not the same "rest of the feeling" with epic story telling and unique sci-fi environment in fantasy bloated genre (and great base-title ;). GW2 seems to be bringing actually a lot of different stuff beginning at the basic gameplay level. As long as both the titles makes the basics right and working, I see winners (at least to a degree) on their way. These two adds and enhances, but does not shred the core of what a person expects from a "theme-park" mmorpg just to rub it on your face as something totally different for the sake of it.

So yeah, I guess I just said that I dont actually even want too different mmorpgs, but innovative as in more, and in better quality, in more complex ways, more freedom, more options, different kind and added gameplay elements alongside with the standard, options for the "end game" and so forth.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Warmaker

Good point. There WAS more experimenting in the 1997-2005 period, with a lot more variation in the MMO's even if there were fewer of them.

Main problem is also that the cost of making an MMO has risen compared to when relatively small companies as Verant and others could jump in and make an MMORPG. The ones that do have the money all seemed tied up to the themepark model. Luckily there are a number of high-resource companies who're trying something different, like ArcheAge, GW2, Firefall, TSW, WoD and such seem to promise.

An emphasis on the time period you mentioned.  Before the MMORPG genre was clearly dominated by a single game.

My guess is that trying something different is deemed risky.  If it doesn't follow the success model, i.e. WoW, then good luck in getting the money to even work on a game that doesn't follow that model.

Innovation and variety essentially died in the genre years ago.  With WoW's success, everyone dropped what they were doing to "Be Like Mike."

I mean, look at SWTOR.  BioWare, no slouches in the video game business themselves, went out of their way in openly declaring how much their game is going to appeal to WoW players (i.e. be like WoW), and going so far as to say that trying anything different is stupid.

They said they were following WoW rules meaning Polish and releasing the game when its ready. If that makes it WoW like than so be it.

 

I would rather have a good WoW Clone than so called innovation that has already been done in none mmos.

Massively

Joystiq

"It [World of Warcraft] is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," says Greg Zeschuck.

I dunno.  It sounds like gameplay there.

Anyways, I'm of a different frame of mind.  Why play a game that apes WoW when you could actually play WoW itself, and does it a whole lot better with years of refinement?

At least before the genre was cornered, you had a choice in the playing field.  Fewer games out by far compared to today.  But more variety.  I recall actually having discussions with buddies about different gameplay in something they tried recently.

And conversations about them weren't quickly ended by, "It's like WoW but..."

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Aganazer

As a board game designer...

You, sir, have a damn cool job!

Heh, yeah, I agree.

I'd say most gamers want a FUN game rather than an 'innovative' game.

Video Games is a form of entertainment and the general public wants the 'entertainment' and doesn't really care for the 'innovation'. Makes sense logically, a form of entertainment needs to provide the entertainment.

I'm pretty sure the movie industry is suffering from the same thing. Or am I the only one that has noticed that most modern movies I see are remakes of remakes of remakes.

Originally posted by Warmaker
  Innovation and variety essentially died in the genre years ago.  With WoW's success, everyone dropped what they were doing to "Be Like Mike."

I mean, look at SWTOR.  BioWare, no slouches in the video game business themselves, went out of their way in openly declaring how much their game is going to appeal to WoW players (i.e. be like WoW), and going so far as to say that trying anything different is stupid.

Originally posted by Kuinn

I would be playing the fail games if they didnt fail at the basic level. It's not really the fault of the "innovative" design of the game if it fails, when the basic elements are lacking and are poor. Bad animation, graphics, effects, low quality this and that and whatnot. Make innovative mmorpg, bring a lot of new toys to the table, but first make the basics working and smooth.

That's what makes this year and the next one so interesting, because they're excellent testcase years to see what MMO gamers really want.

What we've seen the past few years up till now is that either MMO's were released unfinished with a lack of polish, the few sandbox MMO's were even worse and far from AAA status or buggy as hell. Innovation was sparse and far inbetween.

However, we now have a wide range of upcoming MMO's available to appeal to various groups of MMO gamers with different tastes from eachother.

Want a themepark-style MMO that'll be hugely polished?

Pick Rift, TERA or SW:TOR.

Want something new, innovative or something different?

Pick GW2, TSW or Firefall.

Want a pure sandbox MMO that isn't as buggy as what we've seen so far?

Pick Xsyon.

Or are you looking for a reall AAA sandbox title to play?

Pick ArcheAge or World of Darkness.

Or would you like a more story immersive questing/leveling experience?

Pick GW2, SW:TOR or TSW.

In short, for all the different flavors there'll be MMORPG's coming out in the next year or 2. So we'll be able to find out how large all the different MMO gamer groups really are, and what they really want for the short term and the long term in an MMORPG.

Innovation is fine and all.  Hell it's great, but If i feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall everytime I play, something's wrong.

Originally posted by Daggerjaydo

People with no knowledge of statitics claiming that the vocal minority is completely irrelevent. - This notion is total BS, and making the claim in the first place spotlights your ignorance. Now, I'm not saying that the vocal minority is 100% accurate, but there are methods of surveying that could provide accurate data and prove/disprove the relevance of the claims of the people.

Were you going to follow that up with some damning evidence to the contrary, or was your plan simply to counter the supposed "this is what I beleive to be right" with "no I'm right because if you did a poll you'd find out I'm right"?

You kinda left us hanging there.

Originally posted by Warmaker

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Loke666

As for the games you mention, I dunno about Ryzom but Vanguard fail because of terrible coding while TCoS failed because it had no content whatsoever and the idea behind the combat system was sound but it was too simple and not fun enough.

But that's the thing indeed. I think that the vast majority of MMO gamers, not only the ones who played WoW, want content and polish above innovation, no matter what's being said on forums like these.

Content and polish are the primary wish of most MMO gamers, innovation maybe a second or tertiary.

At least, that's what the past years have shown.

If that priority list was different than it really is with innovation on top of the wishlist, then those different MMO's would have fared a lot better and people would've stuck out and coped with the lack in content or the bugs, just because of what the game else had to offer that was a different experience from the 'WoW clone' model.

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Right now the problem is the companies with the resources to bring a smooth, polished MMORPG out are all tied to the standard theme park model leaving any attempts at real innovation to underfunded indie developers who can't bring to bear enough resources to make a truely engaging game.  (outside of the Citadel of Sorcery team who claims to have virtually unlimited funding and are allegedly developing an MMORPG that is totally different from anything else out there.  We'll see)

Good point. There WAS more experimenting in the 1997-2005 period, with a lot more variation in the MMO's even if there were fewer of them.

Main problem is also that the cost of making an MMO has risen compared to when relatively small companies as Verant and others could jump in and make an MMORPG. The ones that do have the money all seemed tied up to the themepark model. Luckily there are a number of high-resource companies who're trying something different, like ArcheAge, GW2, Firefall, TSW, WoD and such seem to promise.

An emphasis on the time period you mentioned.  Before the MMORPG genre was clearly dominated by a single game.

EverQuest was dominating pretty hard back then, but that didn't stop people from being innovative, because the genre was still primarily run by people that love games back then, not just by people who love money.

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

Or are you looking for a reall AAA sandbox title to play?

Pick ArcheAge or World of Darkness.

World of Darkness, I thought it wasnt so far in development? If it's coming out "soon" like many other great titles that might be win-made, there could be soon the trouble of picking a favourite! Maybe more likely that I've died of old age by then.

If I'm not totally mistaken, WoD and Secret world is going to be more or less competition for eachother?

Originally posted by jpnz

 

Video Games is a form of entertainment and the general public wants the 'entertainment' and doesn't really care for the 'innovation'. Makes sense logically, a form of entertainment needs to provide the entertainment.

I care, if I see another quest MMO where I need to find 10 hides I might just never play MMO again.

Even if you play a good song 1000 times, it becomes boring after a while.

Consoles are much more fun atm.