Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Emergence

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

They're niche. Those millions of players tend to play FPS games (CoD, Halo), not MMOs.

Wow, how do you know this?

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by Emergence

Don't let anyone ever tell you that permadeath, full loot, FFA PvP, or sandbox games are "niche" and not worth investment because they won't produce profit.

There are MILLIONS of players who want all of the above, making it a very, very, VERY LARGE market for those type of games.

They're niche. Those millions of players tend to play FPS games (CoD, Halo), not MMOs.

Wow, how do you know this?

 Here is one example just from the call of duty MW2 and BLOPS

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/2010-11-26-blackopswriter26_ST_N.htm

650million in sales in the first 5 days says a lot of people play the game 650mil/60 = 10.83million players that bought the game and thats just black ops, wont mention the battlefield series or halo FPS games blow MMO's out of the water in sales and profit.

Originally posted by Emergence

Honestly, it seems as though no one really knows what they are talking about.

One poster says 1.5% of players ever spend a dime. The next (which is a bit more credible) say 10%+.

Doesn't really matter though...as it's irrelevant whether or not F2P brings in more or less profit than P2P. The profits of either are more than enough to support a MMORPG and make the developers or company (depending on the business) very well off.

 

I really would love to hear from someone here that actually has experience creating a MMORPG or working for a company which makes them. Until then, saying "You don't know what you're talking about!" is rather silly when you're telling someone who earns their income FROM a F2P mmorpg, that they don't know what they're talking about, while you (someone who doesn't work at all in the industry, and just makes rash assumptions, randomly generator percentages, or unsupported claims) somehow knows I am wrong.

*scratches his head*

Well, I guess my bank is going to be REALLY pissed that I am wrong about this, as the money I am being payed must be imaginary, so they must not realize their error yet. When they find out I am wrong, they'll be pretty upset with my withdrawls :( oh geez!!!

The company you work for sounds amazing. Looking forward to one day hearing which game/studio it is and how they managed numbers that dwarf powerhouses like K2, Nexon, OHAI, and Zynga.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make.  Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

I figured I'd just convince you using your own provided link.

It took me a few seconds to find this:

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence

Honestly, it seems as though no one really knows what they are talking about.

One poster says 1.5% of players ever spend a dime. The next (which is a bit more credible) say 10%+.

Doesn't really matter though...as it's irrelevant whether or not F2P brings in more or less profit than P2P. The profits of either are more than enough to support a MMORPG and make the developers or company (depending on the business) very well off.

 

I really would love to hear from someone here that actually has experience creating a MMORPG or working for a company which makes them. Until then, saying "You don't know what you're talking about!" is rather silly when you're telling someone who earns their income FROM a F2P mmorpg, that they don't know what they're talking about, while you (someone who doesn't work at all in the industry, and just makes rash assumptions, randomly generator percentages, or unsupported claims) somehow knows I am wrong.

*scratches his head*

Well, I guess my bank is going to be REALLY pissed that I am wrong about this, as the money I am being payed must be imaginary, so they must not realize their error yet. When they find out I am wrong, they'll be pretty upset with my withdrawls :( oh geez!!!

The company you work for sounds amazing. Looking forward to one day hearing which game/studio it is and how they managed numbers that dwarf powerhouses like K2, Nexon, OHAI, and Zynga.

These numbers don't really mean much...

There is a heavy amount of math involved. 1% of [population] who tend to pay [currency] per month can vary in what it means.

I would get fired if I mentioned what our company makes, the amount players tend to pay, the averages, the high payers, etc. I have mentioned enough in this post about something I shouldn't be talking about (the company's profits so far) that I could get in a lot of trouble if they even knew I was posting here.

However, once our first game goes live, I'll gladly give you a link so you can go and play :) For free of course! As there will be several other players who pay so much more than your free ride takes from us, that I'll be perfectly fine about it.

If financial matters weren't so important to companies, I'd just suggest you go to one to find out their actual costs vs profits, and what % of the costs are servers/employees/etc. and where the profits go.

At least then you could get some experience as opposed to relying on random internet articles or numbers which mean nothing without knowing the actual numbers of revenue, costs, profit, etc.

I severely doubt we will be as successful as a "powerhouse" as you put it, but that doesnt' mean I won't be paid more than the employees over there :)

Ergh, which reminds me, I really need to get off my break and get back to work! I've spent way too long on these forums (although I absolutely LOVE it! these forums are so fun!) I have more art to create...ugh!

fa la la and farewell :)

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make.  Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

I figured I'd just convince you using your own provided link.

It took me a few seconds to find this:

 

  

Steve Heighway

 

2 votes by Serkan Toto and Alan Nguyen

The numbers for social gaming for featurephones in Japan are quite different - DeNA (mobage platform), who recently acquired ngmoco, have an estimated ARPPU of USD30+, and a conversion rate (paying users/all users) of 10%+.  The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month, such is the addiction of these social games.
http://www.dena.jp/en/ir/pdf/Agr...
The stats are also very different for online PC games, with ARPPU of USD50+ and conversion 15%.
(Estimates by Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley, Nov 2010)

 

 

Perhaps your statistics are rather old (2009 is old in this market...) November 2010 on an international level are much more accurate. You also have to think globally, not just in Western but also in Eastern business.

 

I'd like to bring to notice this sentence, which is VERY important in expressing how F2P is so successful and profitable, raking in millions with a low cost.

 

"The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month..."

 

There are users who spend USD1000's per month as well, even if they are fewer than the ones who spend USD100's.

 

Idk how else to convince you, but to allow everyone their own opinion, which will be incorrect if they think the profts are not high for even a small (successful) mmorpg of only a handful of players.

 

Really, everyone is arguing business model, not MMORPG profits. Splitting profits among employees is less relevant in a small company than it is a mega-corp.

You just reiterated what I said (and you quoted) which is

1) the ARPPU can be rather high,

and

2) the number of paying users is between 10-15% of your playerbase.

I don't think you really get what you are reading there so I will explain it:

Even with some people paying 100s of dollars, the total average per payying user came to 30 dollars.

If 10% of your users are paying then your average revenue per use is only $3.00

This contradicts, not supports, your claim that a set number of F2P users generates more revenue than an equivalent number of P2P users.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Keep in mind that only a small percentage of the playerbase in a F2P game ever pay any money. Numbers from K2 networks, Nexon, Three Rings Design and other companies indicate that 10-15% of the playerbase ever spends a dime. This means you'd need probably about 30k-50k when you start figuring how much people actually pay. While you are correct that the Average Return Per paying user (ARPPU) is often rather high, the Average Return Per User (ARPU) for a F2P game is often between $1 and $4, meaning a much larger playerbase is needed to get that percentage of spenders in to make anywhere near what the subscription system would make.  Some good charts and data for f2p games can be found here for those that want to read a bit more on how the money works.

I figured I'd just convince you using your own provided link.

It took me a few seconds to find this:

 

  

Steve Heighway

 

2 votes by Serkan Toto and Alan Nguyen

The numbers for social gaming for featurephones in Japan are quite different - DeNA (mobage platform), who recently acquired ngmoco, have an estimated ARPPU of USD30+, and a conversion rate (paying users/all users) of 10%+.  The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month, such is the addiction of these social games.
http://www.dena.jp/en/ir/pdf/Agr...
The stats are also very different for online PC games, with ARPPU of USD50+ and conversion 15%.
(Estimates by Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley, Nov 2010)

 

 

Perhaps your statistics are rather old (2009 is old in this market...) November 2010 on an international level are much more accurate. You also have to think globally, not just in Western but also in Eastern business.

 

I'd like to bring to notice this sentence, which is VERY important in expressing how F2P is so successful and profitable, raking in millions with a low cost.

 

"The ARPPU is heavily skewed by heavy users, who spend USD100s per month..."

 

There are users who spend USD1000's per month as well, even if they are fewer than the ones who spend USD100's.

 

Idk how else to convince you, but to allow everyone their own opinion, which will be incorrect if they think the profts are not high for even a small (successful) mmorpg of only a handful of players.

 

Really, everyone is arguing business model, not MMORPG profits. Splitting profits among employees is less relevant in a small company than it is a mega-corp.

You just reiterated what I said (and you quoted) which is

1) the ARPPU can be rather high,

and

2) the number of paying users is between 10-15% of your playerbase.

 

I don't think you really get what you are reading there so I will explain it:

Even with some people paying 100s of dollars, the total average per payying user came to 30 dollars.

If 10% of your users are paying then your average revenue per use is only $3.00

This contradicts, not supports, your claim that a set number of F2P users generates more revenue than an equivalent number of P2P users.

Um, you're missing the HUGE part of F2P vs P2P.

If the game was P2P, it wouldn't have ANYWHERE near as many users as the F2P games.

It is highly inaccurate to calculate revenue per user, as many of those users would NOT be playing at all if the game were P2P.

For ex. 100 players in a F2P game, and 10 of those players pay.

That same game, gone P2P, would have a bit over 10 players.

Claiming P2P games are more profitable because F2P have a lower "average revenue per use" is just nonsense. Think about how different the playerbase would be in a P2P vs F2P game.

An average $ per player is irrelevant, as the amount of revenue those F2P players give is significantly more than the revenue they'd get if it was P2P. In fact... P2P would give LESS profit because those 10+ paying customers in the P2P version would be spending only $15/month, as opposed to $1-$1000's a month.

It was not me who was reading it wrong, sorry. You don't have to explain anything to me, as I live off of this model and its profits. I really don't know how to stress that enough...

When our game goes live, I [might] be able to tell you how much I make per month, which is a % of the total profit. Right now, we're making profits but it's stil in beta so the population is low (although the profits are high in comparison to the population)

I want to further discuss this, but honestly I can't.

I really need to get back to work, but also I am literally afraid if I continue this discussion, I might get in a lot of trouble... I gotta go anyways.

I apologize I can't continue, I really enjoy this discussion with you.

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence
 

I would get fired if I mentioned what our company makes, the amount players tend to pay... I have mentioned enough in this post about something I shouldn't be talking ... I could get in a lot of trouble if they even knew I was posting here.

However, once our first game goes live, I'll gladly give you a link so you can go and play :) For free of course! As there will be several other players who pay so much more than your free ride takes from us, that I'll be perfectly fine about it.

I'm going to go out of my way and take some of what you say at face value. Let's assume that you are under NDA for your company's first project. What's the company's name? I'm not asking about the project. I'm not asking for any stats. I'm asking for the company name. k?

Next up, this company that you allegedly work for hasn't produced a single game yet. You don't even have a game live at this point. How can you claim to have inside information about how the F2P business model pans out when you don't even have a working game that is making you money?

Right now, based on what you've volunteered, I'm assuming that you're a high school kid and that you and your friends decided to make an MMORPG. You don't know what you're doing and your learning as you go. That's good and that's bad. It's good that you're learning some hard lessons early so that you can be more successful next time. It's bad because you feel the need to fill your sense of failure with false arrogance.

Let me give you some advice. If you feel like an expert on something, then you're not. Over the course of my adult working life, I've worked with some of the best people in their fields. At times, I've been asked to consult others. What all experts have in common in a sense that they really have no idea what they're doing.

When you don't know a lot about something, then you don't know what you don't know. When you do know a lot about something, you know exactly what you don't know and you feel like an idiot for not knowing. You know?

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence
 

I would get fired if I mentioned what our company makes, the amount players tend to pay... I have mentioned enough in this post about something I shouldn't be talking ... I could get in a lot of trouble if they even knew I was posting here.

However, once our first game goes live, I'll gladly give you a link so you can go and play :) For free of course! As there will be several other players who pay so much more than your free ride takes from us, that I'll be perfectly fine about it.

I'm going to go out of my way and take some of what you say at face value. Let's assume that you are under NDA for your company's first project.

I'm not under NDA, I just don't know if it's appropriate or not, so I'd rather...not.

What's the company's name? I'm not asking about the project. I'm not asking for any stats. I'm asking for the company name. k?

[edited] i private sent you a few links and more information, but edited it out of this because there are a lot of nasty people here who shouldn't know who I actually am.

Next up, this company that you allegedly work for hasn't produced a single game yet.

Um, yes they have. Two.

You don't even have a game live at this point.

Yes...we do... and so do I...

How can you claim to have inside information about how the F2P business model pans out when you don't even have a working game that is making you money?

I do... I have lived off of what we've made so far in revenue...

Right now, based on what you've volunteered, I'm assuming that you're a high school kid and that you and your friends decided to make an MMORPG.

I'm a professional graphics artist, game developer, and as of this last year a novice programmer.

Here is some of my work:

Here is a link to my old portfolio (old as in..haven't updated since I landed my job with BFP)

2dsprites.webs.com

You don't know what you're doing and your learning as you go.

This could be said of anyone in the business, hahahahha :P

That's good and that's bad.

Awesome.

It's good that you're learning some hard lessons early so that you can be more successful next time. It's bad because you feel the need to fill your sense of failure with false arrogance.

False Arrogance? I merely make observations and state facts. Don't really know how that is arrogant. I never once said I was...well...anything...other than a graphics artist (for BFP and individually) and game developer (Emergence, my own game).

Emergence is NOT part of the company I work for, not did I participate in any of their previous games. I've just worked on the graphics for New Horizons, our game that is going to be released very soon and is currently in beta.

Let me give you some advice. If you feel like an expert on something, then you're not.

Uh huh... so by your logic no one is an expert.

Over the course of my adult working life, I've worked with some of the best people in their fields. At times, I've been asked to consult others. What all experts have in common in a sense that they really have no idea what they're doing.

Wait... so at first I'm NOT an expert, and then I am?

 

"You don't know what you're doing and your learning as you go."

You just said that, and now you say "What all experts have in common in a sense that they really have no idea what they're doing."

So first I am a 17 teenager novice, and now I am a 58 year old expert?

When you don't know a lot about something, then you don't know what you don't know. When you do know a lot about something, you know exactly what you don't know and you feel like an idiot for not knowing. You know?

Uh huh... will you please stop...please?

I really don't understand your point. You're telling me to my face that my job doesn't exist, my skills don't exist, my artwork doesn't exist, my game doesn't exist, the company I work for doesn't exist, the payment I receive from them doesn't exist, the employees don't exist, their games don't exist, and my game doesn't exist?

All because... you're an expert at telling what is real and who is telling the truth...except you say you aren't an expert because experts don't exist...except you ARE an expert because experts have no idea what they're talking about... And it's obvious yo have no idea what you're talking about either...so you are but arent but are but aren't an expert?

Save your apology though, I'm used to this kind of trolling. I just had a 22 year old college freshman private message me with really, really nasty insults and attitude, incredibly demeaning rhetoric, and when I tried to be mature and civil (as well as providing tons of links and images proving I am who I say I am) he just ran around in circles of illogical derogatory rambling. The best part of all? He claimed to work in the MMORPG Industry with "proof" I was wrong, working for a company that has produced "4 major MMORPG's" and his job? Financial director. Yet when I asked him for an answer to a basic question (which had nothing to do with his own company) about a financial aspect of a business, he was so incapable of answering that he retorted with "um...you have mental problems don't project your inseucirites on to me!" Yet I was quite civil and logical, making sure to remain as calm and mature as I could despite his incredibly nasty and hateful messages.

I answered your post civilly, although this really shouldn't even be discussed in this thread.

I answered all of your questions via this post or private message. Thank you!

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Originally posted by Emergence

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Emergence
 

Let me give you some advice. If you feel like an expert on something, then you're not.

Uh huh... so by your logic no one is an expert.

Over the course of my adult working life, I've worked with some of the best people in their fields. At times, I've been asked to consult others. What all experts have in common in a sense that they really have no idea what they're doing.

Wait... so at first I'm NOT an expert, and then I am?

 

"You don't know what you're doing and your learning as you go."

You just said that, and now you say "What all experts have in common in a sense that they really have no idea what they're doing."

So first I am a 17 teenager novice, and now I am a 58 year old expert?

When you don't know a lot about something, then you don't know what you don't know. When you do know a lot about something, you know exactly what you don't know and you feel like an idiot for not knowing. You know?

Uh huh... will you please stop...please?

 

And this is an example of when being stylistically clever is a bad choice. Let me aim for clarity this time.

A novice may have knowledge about a subject, but they usually don't know about the holes in their own knowledge. An expert has vast knowledge, but they also realize that there's a lot more to they have yet to learn and they know exactly where they are lacking.

Here's a quick example: While I was working on my degree in English I asked a bunch of graduate students what a participle was. None of them could tell me right off the top of their head. After a certain point, that kind of knowledge is no longer important to the writing process because you don't leave particples hanging. Even today, as a professional technical/copywriter, I go out of my way to avoid using semicolons and dashes. Sure, I could look up there usage in the Hacker's Manual, but why bother when I have other tools that will get the point accross just as effectively?

And that's were the phenomenon comes from. Novices are actively thinking about what they're doing as they're doing it while experts just use the patterns that always worked for them without conscious effort. Thing is, you still run up against things you don't know about. Experts recognize this while novices don't know that they lack knowledge and just move ahead obliviously and make mistakes without knowing it.

The result is an inverse humility. Novices get pissy and strut their "expertise" while actual experts get real quiet and start working it out in their heads. There's an actual psychological term for this but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Back to your post. You are a graphic designer. If you made the pictures you posted, you're adequate. Or your art style is very dry. Or you didn't spend a lot of time on those images. At any rate, you can draw. This doesn't make you an accountant or an MBA.

While I'm sure you may have heard some figures from co-workers, the business end of the business is not your specialization. In this light, your popping off about your involvement in the industry holds even less weight. You push pixels. You don't do the books.

Heh, Armchair CEOs.

Originally posted by mCalvert

Originally posted by PhelimReagh

Runescape issued a press release with statistics for their "Valentines Day Massacre" weekend. 625,347 player deaths in the new "old" full loot PvP wilderness were recorded across all their servers.

 

http://services.runescape.com/m=news/valentines-day-massacre---results

 

Is there a record of anything else like this taking place in other full loot games? I know folks have issues with RS (as I do),  and PvP is not my bag, especially when you lose everything/most things you're carrying, but it seems like a pretty vibrant environment for those who like that kind of thing.

 

Not sure if this would be better in the Runescape forum, but I was interested to know if other games had anything like this.

 Heres a old dev blog from EVE showing up to 300k ships destroyed every month. The number is probably higher now.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=656

Thanks for at least one response that was germane to the question in the original post. From what I understand of EVE, getting PKed in that game could result in a serious loss of in-game investment.

We'll see if RS keeps a running tally of PKs. If they can do it for a weekend, they can do it for a month as well.

Seeing as most of you are very confused I'll give some insight as to how big Runescape's fanbase is. There has been over 150 million accounts created(making it the world's largest "free" mmo)and Runescape has over 8 million active players (acording to an interview with Jagex's CEO) with around 1-1.5 million paying ATLEAST $5 a month depending on when they registered, how they pay, and where they live.  Saying that the "lose-ur-stoof" on death has no market is completely false.