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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why Do MMORPGs All Use Massive Time Sinks?

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60 posts found
  Shoju

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/09/06
Posts: 775

2/16/11 12:47:04 PM#41
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe
Originally posted by Shoju
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

I just don't see endless grinding and tedious OCD gameplay as a win-win situation for developers, publishers or gamers.

The 12 million people running around in the World of Warcraft Skinner Box suggests otherwise.

But Blizzard's formula clearly doesn't work for anyone else though, but other developers haven't quite worked that out yet.

Just because something is effective doesn't mean that it's necessarily beneficial to everyone involved.

But it is.  Activision-Blizzard reap the beneifts of billions of dollars of income.  And WOW players reap the benefit of getting their 'fix' and are happy to continue throwing their money at Blizzard to keep it going.  The only people that don't benefit from it are Blizzard's competitors.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe
At this point, anyone that offers an alternative will be making a lot of money.

And what makes you think that the majority of gamers really want an 'alternative'?  Sure we might see on these forums complaints about lack of innovation/change, but any time a developer tries to do anyhting outside-the-box they are shot down by people throwing around claims of grind/unintuitive/WOW-clone/not-like-WOW/[insert-buzz-word-of-the-week-here].  People that want an alternative are clearly in the minority, and I doubt that we will see that change any time soon.

I may not like the current state of the MMO industry, but I also accept that it isn't going to change any time soon.  Developers still have too many WOW-inspired $$ signs floating around  in their heads.

  Maar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/05
Posts: 12

2/16/11 2:02:40 PM#42
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.

say's the herd ..........

 

baaaaa

 

Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .

 

Its the future .

 

Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels . 

Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.

I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ...... 

But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . 

Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......

 

Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .

 

In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . 

 

We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun . 

 

 

 

 

 

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2614

2/16/11 2:14:55 PM#43
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.

say's the herd ..........

 

baaaaa

 

Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .

 

Its the future .

 

Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels . 

Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.

I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ...... 

But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun . 

I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.

Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind?  How many games "don't" have a grind?

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  2/16/11 2:15:05 PM#44
Originally posted by Shoju

And what makes you think that the majority of gamers really want an 'alternative'?

The fact that the majority of gamers are playing genres other than MMORPGs. Grand Theft Auto 3 alone sole more copies than the total number of World of Warcraft accounts. If you were to combine The top two games of just about any other genre and compare them to the subscription numbers of the top two MMORPGs, you would find out just how small the MMORPG market really is.

And why is the market small? Because it clings to designs that turn the majority of gamers off. And it isn't just action and console gamers either. By the end of the year, Starcraft 2 is expected to sell over 7 million units. The first sims game sold 16 million copies with the sequels doing equally well. The Pokemon series, argueably a RPG series, has sold 155 million units over the years.

And look at the upcoming games that are getting the most buzz. Planetside Next, Firefall, that zombie game from Undead Labs, End of Nations.... The MMORPG market is saturated and dominated by WoW and the market for that kind of gameplay is limited. Developers are striking out in new directions where there is some actual money to be made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Emergence

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 905

Innovation. Challenge. Both for the players and for us as developers.

2/16/11 2:27:20 PM#45
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.

say's the herd ..........

 

baaaaa

 

Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .

 

Its the future .

 

Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels . 

Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.

I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ...... 

But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun . 

I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.

Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind?  How many games "don't" have a grind?

It's not his job as a player to get the idea to work. It's his job to do exactly as he is doing. You can't expect anything else, as that would be ridiculous.

Find an actual MMO developer, such as myself, and attack them instead, or ask how they might tackle the situation instead.

 

You cannot demand a player to become a developer or to discuss ideas that a player doesn't want to or need to think about.

If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.

  justamemory

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 202

2/16/11 2:44:26 PM#46

time sinks are there because they get lazy in having no idea about how to make a continually intriguing game. at least this way they can somewhat fix their earnings if they can't encourage you to play for the game itself--they'll try to trap you in it instead.

  Emergence

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 905

Innovation. Challenge. Both for the players and for us as developers.

2/16/11 2:51:14 PM#47
Originally posted by justamemory

time sinks are there because they get lazy in having no idea about how to make a continually intriguing game. at least this way they can somewhat fix their earnings if they can't encourage you to play for the game itself--they'll try to trap you in it instead.

great way to sum up what I wanted to say in only two sentences.

I admire you, lol, it took me forever just to say THAT!

 

Great job.

If being a developer means being quiet, mature, well-spoken, and disconnected from the community, then by all means do me a favor and believe I'm not one.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

2/16/11 11:07:34 PM#48
Originally posted by Emergence
Originally posted by justamemory

time sinks are there because they get lazy in having no idea about how to make a continually intriguing game. at least this way they can somewhat fix their earnings if they can't encourage you to play for the game itself--they'll try to trap you in it instead.

great way to sum up what I wanted to say in only two sentences.

I admire you, lol, it took me forever just to say THAT!

 

Great job.

I'm not sure it's lazy to fail to create a "continually intriguing game".

Scientists are lazy for failing to create an excess supply of environmentally friendly energy, right?  It's super easy but they're being lazy...right?

And most entertainers could choose to highly entertain us forever, but they choose to be lazy instead.  They choose to put out lackluster second albums (or second TV seasons, or sequels.)  They're just being lazy, right?

  Omega3

Novice Member

Joined: 4/13/07
Posts: 396

2/17/11 12:28:54 AM#49
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

It doesn't really make any sense. I realize that F2P games use the grind as 'stick' in order to get players to buy stuff from the cash shop, but aren't there more immediate ways that you can "encourage" your player base to buy that crap. If the goal is to get people to pay for junk, time seems like a horrible way to do it since there will always be people that are willing to waste their lives rather than pay for anything.

The same question applies to subscription games. When your players spend huge amounts of time playing your game, the bandwidth costs eat up your revenue. The less time people play per session, the more money you make because you aren't spending as much on bandwidth. Rather than demanding players sit on their asses for 20+ hours a week, why not just use that sub money for monthly content expansions. You could still do one major box expansion every year just to get a spike in returning players.

I just don't see endless grinding and tedious OCD gameplay as a win-win situation for developers, publishers or gamers. There are more effective ways to keep people paying those subs and buying those items.

To keep you playing as long as possible.

My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.

  Swanea

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 2387

2/17/11 12:30:48 AM#50

Some are not that massive of time sinks as others.

 

It's good to have big time sinks for those that would use them, so long as there are lighter sinks for everyone else.

  hockeyplayr

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/10
Posts: 563

2/17/11 12:41:27 AM#51

i like the timesinks.  It gives a true feeling of progression and in a way avoids games from being too top heavy.  If everyone can power to max level in a week, those who want to sit back and actually read the quest lines and enjoy the game are there to do it alone.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3575

2/17/11 12:47:15 AM#52

If you think it's fun it's "Content"
If you don't think it's fun, it's "Timesink"

That distinction will be different for every individual that plays the game. There are times developers will intentionally use timesinks as ways to extend content and keep playesr from blowing through it too fast (Faction/Reputation grinding, key/flag quests, etc)

  Maar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/05
Posts: 12

2/17/11 2:00:12 PM#53
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.

say's the herd ..........

 

baaaaa

 

Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .

 

Its the future .

 

Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels . 

Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.

I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ...... 

But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun . 

I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.

Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind?  How many games "don't" have a grind?

Some very simple ways would be to give GM's (assuming they can be free of the constant policing "GM's" seem to spend all there time doing now ) the tools to be able to Adapt dungeons on the fly  for example drop trap's and npc's or even control NPCs , Even alter the architechture of the dungeon itself , trap the players esacpe with a landslide and open up a more dangeous exit . Give the GM's the tools to create open world events that matter within game lore make them the "leaders" of the Game races .  So many things are possible we need to look back at the old pen and paper games to relearn what a GM should truley be . I realise there may be many games already out there with these features but how many of those games have dev teams and GM's with enough time aside from respecivley balancing or policing the game to to build or use them as they should . 

MMo's dont need to become FPS insta gratification games , they can still have a open world with items to acquire and craft or trade ,Reputations to build and smash .  With a diverse race and class system pluss a variety of ways to build each one theres still room to be original , to build you char in your way and to fall in love with your avatar  . MMos dont have to be only Power gamer friendly with a gigantic learning curve if they loose the leveling system but it obviously needs to be adressed by easing your players in to the game through other means if thats what they choose to do . 

  fodell54

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/08
Posts: 321

Swift as the windQuiet as the forestConquer like the fireSteady as the mountain-Sun Tzu

2/17/11 2:48:11 PM#54
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by Maar
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You can have and we actually do have MMORPGs that have a relatively minor grind involved, but there has to be some sort of a grind in order to keep people paying those monthly fees.

say's the herd ..........

 

baaaaa

 

Take away the leveling give us content , give gm's tools to create exiting events instead of dedicating 1,000's of hours development and Gm monitoring to leveling .

 

Its the future .

 

Dynamic content that changes constantly , instead of exp goals and time sink levels . 

Once you actually figure out how to implement something like that in such a way that investors are confident in your ideas, you can dream up ideas all day long, but you haven't put forth one single actionable solution to the issue.

I'm just a player ....... you want me to invent a mmo ? , Ridiculous comeback tbh ...... 

But why do you think there needs to be a grind ? , your stuck in the shoe box like almost every mmo developer out there unable to see or think outside of the tiny space people like blizzard have stuffed you in . Whichever MMO you play the GM's and DEV team are devoting a large % of there time balancing tweaking and revising the leveling process constantly . The brains behind EVERY mmo is being more or less wasted on this ......Anyone old or geeky enough to have played pen and paper RPGS may still be able to remember what a Games Master was realy for . Most of the WOW generation MMO gamers would likley give you a totaly different Interpretation .In most MMO'S Games Masters have become slaves/police to the leveling process , controling macros/ exploits players will exploit to gain levels faster , or controling/fixing bugs and dupes indirecly linked to the leveling process . We need a step back to get some godamn roleplay in our roleplaying games , A Games Master should be just this someone who encourages and adapts the game to the players to have fun . 

I'm just saying it's easy to spout off ideas, but unless you include ways of implementing those ideas into actual game design, you can't say they'll work.

Even so, can you "totally" eliminate the grind?  How many games "don't" have a grind?

Some very simple ways would be to give GM's (assuming they can be free of the constant policing "GM's" seem to spend all there time doing now ) the tools to be able to Adapt dungeons on the fly  for example drop trap's and npc's or even control NPCs , Even alter the architechture of the dungeon itself , trap the players esacpe with a landslide and open up a more dangeous exit . Give the GM's the tools to create open world events that matter within game lore make them the "leaders" of the Game races .  So many things are possible we need to look back at the old pen and paper games to relearn what a GM should truley be . I realise there may be many games already out there with these features but how many of those games have dev teams and GM's with enough time aside from respecivley balancing or policing the game to to build or use them as they should . 

MMo's dont need to become FPS insta gratification games , they can still have a open world with items to acquire and craft or trade ,Reputations to build and smash .  With a diverse race and class system pluss a variety of ways to build each one theres still room to be original , to build you char in your way and to fall in love with your avatar  . MMos dont have to be only Power gamer friendly with a gigantic learning curve if they loose the leveling system but it obviously needs to be adressed by easing your players in to the game through other means if thats what they choose to do . 

 

 

What you’re talking about is basically old UO. That being said these ideas don't really work except on certain occasions, like a Gm event. You are talking about a massive amount of man power. Imagine implementing this into a game with a million plus players. How many GM's would it take to make everyone’s experience different in a dungeon? Since most games use instancing now, let's just say 50 of the same instance are open at the same time. Is a single GM expected to bounce between these instances? It isn't very theasible. This would also take away from them dealing with players issues. So, customer service would suffer.

As for remembering UO, it was one of the biggest time sinks I've ever played. So much so that people macroed skills for months because it took too long to "GM" anything naturally. I'd rather play through a game that has levels then sit and watch my toon cast Flame Strike in my house for 8 hours.

  Maar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/05
Posts: 12

2/17/11 2:59:55 PM#55

Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .

 

Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and  don't forget the exp treat at the end . 

  fodell54

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/08
Posts: 321

Swift as the windQuiet as the forestConquer like the fireSteady as the mountain-Sun Tzu

2/17/11 3:18:20 PM#56
Originally posted by Maar

Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .

 

Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and  don't forget the exp treat at the end . 

 

First, how is it a side effect of GM's? It is implemented during the creation of the game by developers. Gm's have nothing to do with it at all. Infact, this is only an opionion but I think most people prefer instancing over open world dungeons. I know I used to hate when someone would come in and steal a mob. Instancing elminated that frustrating aspect of the MMO's.

Second, if you talking about a program that throws Stick billy and his 10 mates in a hole then wouldn't that be the same experience that everyone would when they went into the dungeon? Also, if it were an open world dungeon don't you think the people behind Stick billy's group would be like " Screw this! Why do I want to fall into the hole with that guy?"

So, let me get his right. You want GM's to have a program that will allow them to instantly change (on the fly) any aspect of the game? Once again doesn't sound to theasible, atleast to me.

  Sid_Vicious

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/10
Posts: 1527

2/17/11 4:57:16 PM#57

If I am paying a monthly sub than it better have many time sinks otherwise they are better off just making it pay to play since I would most likely stop within a month.

 

All of my favorite computer and console games growing up had timesinks but I expect more entertaining and bigger ones in MMORPGs since I am paying monthly.

NEWS FLASH! A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore Darkfall Online player and knew just what to do.

  Jimmy_Scythe

Novice Member

Joined: 12/31/04
Posts: 3602

 
OP  2/17/11 5:10:08 PM#58
Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

If I am paying a monthly sub than it better have many time sinks otherwise they are better off just making it pay to play since I would most likely stop within a month.

 

All of my favorite computer and console games growing up had timesinks but I expect more entertaining and bigger ones in MMORPGs since I am paying monthly.

So you'd be totally cool with a game where you clicked a button to attack a mob and then had to come back in EXACTLY 48 hours to see the results and decide what to do next? And if you didn't come back on time, the monster would just keep attacking you.

Yeah, I'm exageratiing a whole lot, but that is basically what you're advocating for. There are plenty of Facebook and browser games that do that already. I expect something more from a AAA title with it's own client and a monthly fee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2if5GYXOGyo

  Maar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/05
Posts: 12

2/17/11 6:43:53 PM#59
Originally posted by fodell54
Originally posted by Maar

Instancing , Another Side effect of GM's too busy on pointless shit .

 

Stick billy and his 10 mates in the hole , run the program and  don't forget the exp treat at the end . 

 

First, how is it a side effect of GM's? It is implemented during the creation of the game by developers. Gm's have nothing to do with it at all. Infact, this is only an opionion but I think most people prefer instancing over open world dungeons. I know I used to hate when someone would come in and steal a mob. Instancing elminated that frustrating aspect of the MMO's.

Second, if you talking about a program that throws Stick billy and his 10 mates in a hole then wouldn't that be the same experience that everyone would when they went into the dungeon? Also, if it were an open world dungeon don't you think the people behind Stick billy's group would be like " Screw this! Why do I want to fall into the hole with that guy?"

So, let me get his right. You want GM's to have a program that will allow them to instantly change (on the fly) any aspect of the game? Once again doesn't sound to theasible, atleast to me.

Instancing seriously ...... 

I've never seen how closed instancing has any place in mmo's . The term massivley multiplayer is  in direct opposition  to 5-10 player instances in my opinion . But hey thats a whole other discussion ......

Back on topic 

So as we have previously established I'm no game designer , I dont know how may GM's blizzard or anyone else employs , I dont know how much of there time is actualy dedicated to policing stuff  .  

But I do know the whole mmo genre is stale and boring , I'm a long time player and i know a lot of other people who have lost interest . Also as someone stated before its not just a few people , Gamers speak with there wallets and mmos are hovering up the pocket change . 

The EXP carrot is old and mouldy and after 15 + years lots of us dont want to nibble the  mankey old thing anymore . Time for some inovation .

 

Step outside the shoebox .

  gurugeorge

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/08
Posts: 474

2/20/11 8:47:58 AM#60
Originally posted by Ridelynn

If you think it's fun it's "Content"
If you don't think it's fun, it's "Timesink"

That distinction will be different for every individual that plays the game. There are times developers will intentionally use timesinks as ways to extend content and keep playesr from blowing through it too fast (Faction/Reputation grinding, key/flag quests, etc)

QFT, this is about the size of it.

The only real difference is in the "feel" of a game, whether the lore, the backstory, the general ambience, grabs one or not.  If the feel of the game grabs you the grind doesn't feel like grind, if the feel of the game doesn't grab you, the grind feels like grind.

What often happens is that the "magic" of the feel of the game may fade, and the grind starts to feel like grind - that's when one leaves the game (or alternatively, squats on the forums like a troll and bitches about the game).

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