Chinese President Hu Jintao has said the international currency system dominated by the US dollar is a "product of the past".

Mr Hu also said China was taking steps to replace it with the yuan, its own currency, but acknowledged that would be a "fairly long process".

"The monetary policy of the United States has a major impact on global liquidity and capital flows and therefore, the liquidity of the US dollar should be kept at a reasonable and stable level," President Hu said.

On Sunday night, three Democratic senators announced they would introduce a new bill to increase penalties the US considers to be "currency manipulators".

Despite criticism of the current system, Mr Hu said he believed it would be a long time before the yuan - or renminbi (RMB) - was accepted as a global currency.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12203391

Damn, these Chinese will get more and more powerfull. I am curios when and how someone maybe talks about a new "rogue" state hehe. Nah seriously, our economics need a change or they eat us alive.

No worries there will be major changes in the decade or so no matter how little washington decides to do.

Who has ever thought that after the fall of most communist countries, that a new type of socialism would be such a new and strong world power. It reminds more on the "NS" national socialism than on the "red" one due to their open market and accptance for private property. Isnt it crazy.

At least their communist pink army is nice to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4DZQhfrl5Y&feature=related

Hehe, the image would fit with your message.

It's scary when we are the ones that may be bent over the barrel eh?

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

Originally posted by LeKinK

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

Alaska and Hawaii are sovereign states - they can't be sold to another country =p

Our dollar is doomed - the inflation China and other countries that have their currency pegged to the dollar will eventually cause the host country to break the peg.  This event (it will happen gradually, and is happening now) will cause our inflated dollars that we've been exporting for the past 40 years to come back to us - and it will hurt.  The Stagflation of the 1970's will be easy street compared to what's coming.  An even more sobering thought - we won't be able to raise interest rates like Volker did in 1981 to 21.8%.  The US govt is addicted to cheap short term credit that is being monatized by the Federal Reserve.  We have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit NOW with short term interest costs of only 3-4%.  What do you think will happen to our debt service if it hits 21% again?

ANSWER = The govt will default.

So what are our options?  Well the US govt has 3 options

1) It can cut spending: We've already seen the pathetic 32 billion dollar proposal from RINO Paul Ryan.  32 billion from a 3 trillion budget is peanuts and won't do anything.  Rand Paul's more aggressive 500 billion in cuts is still not enough - the deficit is 1.5 TRILLION.  And even with the 500 billion in cuts the parasites in Washington are already squealing like stuck pigs!  Ending conclusion - Substantial cuts, necessary enough to balance the budget, unlikely

2) It can increase taxes:  The overall tax burden on US citizens is already one of the highest in the world - averaging 50-60% of earned income.  This includes property tax, municipal tax, state income tax, county sales taxes, federal income - everything.  Most articles I've read say the federal income tax would have to be increased by 25-50% in order to balance the budget.  However none of these articles try to predict what type of impact this would have on an economy during the middle of a depression.  It is incredibly unlikely that the expected revenues will be as high as they (the CBO) claims.  Especially considering their track record during this crisis.  In the end it doesn't matter - with a majority Republican house, tax increases won't happen.

3) The FED can inflate the debt away:  This is the most likely option.  As the economy eventually pulls out of depression and starts growing (real growth, not debt driven expenditures via govt borrowing like we see now) interest rates will rise.  If interest rates rise the cost of borrowing for the US govt will increase.  This cannot be allowed to happen.  If interest rates go too high, the US will default as it will have to start borrowing money to pay interest payments on the debt.  Thus inflating the currency (printing money by the FED) will have two effects.  1) It will keep interest rates low by flooding liquidity in the market, and 2) it will decrease the real value of the debt.

The logical conclusion is that #3 is most likely to occur.  So what does that mean for us mundanes?  Well it means higher food and energy prices, lower real wages, and stagflation.

We are already experiencing this - the US Debt growth is outpacing GDP growth by a ratio of 3:1.  What does this mean?  Real economic activity is still decreasing, but the inflated prices makes it seem that the economy is growing.  THIS IS BAD FOR EVERYONE.

There is one awful scenario that the govt doesn't want to bring up is what happened during the 1970's.  As inflation began to get out of control (bordering hyperinflationary) the FED only had one option.  To raise interest rates like Volcker did.  However this option is no longer available.  US debt has exploded since 1980 to a point where a 20% interest rate would be fatal.

So the question is - are you prepared for coming hyper inflation?  Will you be one of the millions of its victims or will you be ready?

Originally posted by smokemonsc

Originally posted by LeKinK

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

Alaska and Hawaii are sovereign states - they can't be sold to another country =p

Our dollar is doomed - the inflation China and other countries that have their currency pegged to the dollar will eventually cause the host country to break the peg.  This event (it will happen gradually, and is happening now) will cause our inflated dollars that we've been exporting for the past 40 years to come back to us - and it will hurt.  The Stagflation of the 1970's will be easy street compared to what's coming.  An even more sobering thought - we won't be able to raise interest rates like Volker did in 1981 to 21.8%.  The US govt is addicted to cheap short term credit that is being monatized by the Federal Reserve.  We have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit NOW with short term interest costs of only 3-4%.  What do you think will happen to our debt service if it hits 21% again?

ANSWER = The govt will default.

So what are our options?  Well the US govt has 3 options

1) It can cut spending: We've already seen the pathetic 32 billion dollar proposal from RINO Paul Ryan.  32 billion from a 3 trillion budget is peanuts and won't do anything.  Rand Paul's more aggressive 500 billion in cuts is still not enough - the deficit is 1.5 TRILLION.  And even with the 500 billion in cuts the parasites in Washington are already squealing like stuck pigs!  Ending conclusion - Substantial cuts, necessary enough to balance the budget, unlikely

2) It can increase taxes:  The overall tax burden on US citizens is already one of the highest in the world - averaging 50-60% of earned income.  This includes property tax, municipal tax, state income tax, county sales taxes, federal income - everything.  Most articles I've read say the federal income tax would have to be increased by 25-50% in order to balance the budget.  However none of these articles try to predict what type of impact this would have on an economy during the middle of a depression.  It is incredibly unlikely that the expected revenues will be as high as they (the CBO) claims.  Especially considering their track record during this crisis.  In the end it doesn't matter - with a majority Republican house, tax increases won't happen.

3) The FED can inflate the debt away:  This is the most likely option.  As the economy eventually pulls out of depression and starts growing (real growth, not debt driven expenditures via govt borrowing like we see now) interest rates will rise.  If interest rates rise the cost of borrowing for the US govt will increase.  This cannot be allowed to happen.  If interest rates go too high, the US will default as it will have to start borrowing money to pay interest payments on the debt.  Thus inflating the currency (printing money by the FED) will have two effects.  1) It will keep interest rates low by flooding liquidity in the market, and 2) it will decrease the real value of the debt.

The logical conclusion is that #3 is most likely to occur.  So what does that mean for us mundanes?  Well it means higher food and energy prices, lower real wages, and stagflation.

We are already experiencing this - the US Debt growth is outpacing GDP growth by a ratio of 3:1.  What does this mean?  Real economic activity is still decreasing, but the inflated prices makes it seem that the economy is growing.  THIS IS BAD FOR EVERYONE.

There is one awful scenario that the govt doesn't want to bring up is what happened during the 1970's.  As inflation began to get out of control (bordering hyperinflationary) the FED only had one option.  To raise interest rates like Volcker did.  However this option is no longer available.  US debt has exploded since 1980 to a point where a 20% interest rate would be fatal.

So the question is - are you prepared for coming hyper inflation?  Will you be one of the millions of its victims or will you be ready?

Lots of guesstimation and fearmongering going on with your post.

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by smokemonsc

Originally posted by LeKinK

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

Alaska and Hawaii are sovereign states - they can't be sold to another country =p

Our dollar is doomed - the inflation China and other countries that have their currency pegged to the dollar will eventually cause the host country to break the peg.  This event (it will happen gradually, and is happening now) will cause our inflated dollars that we've been exporting for the past 40 years to come back to us - and it will hurt.  The Stagflation of the 1970's will be easy street compared to what's coming.  An even more sobering thought - we won't be able to raise interest rates like Volker did in 1981 to 21.8%.  The US govt is addicted to cheap short term credit that is being monatized by the Federal Reserve.  We have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit NOW with short term interest costs of only 3-4%.  What do you think will happen to our debt service if it hits 21% again?

ANSWER = The govt will default.

So what are our options?  Well the US govt has 3 options

1) It can cut spending: We've already seen the pathetic 32 billion dollar proposal from RINO Paul Ryan.  32 billion from a 3 trillion budget is peanuts and won't do anything.  Rand Paul's more aggressive 500 billion in cuts is still not enough - the deficit is 1.5 TRILLION.  And even with the 500 billion in cuts the parasites in Washington are already squealing like stuck pigs!  Ending conclusion - Substantial cuts, necessary enough to balance the budget, unlikely

2) It can increase taxes:  The overall tax burden on US citizens is already one of the highest in the world - averaging 50-60% of earned income.  This includes property tax, municipal tax, state income tax, county sales taxes, federal income - everything.  Most articles I've read say the federal income tax would have to be increased by 25-50% in order to balance the budget.  However none of these articles try to predict what type of impact this would have on an economy during the middle of a depression.  It is incredibly unlikely that the expected revenues will be as high as they (the CBO) claims.  Especially considering their track record during this crisis.  In the end it doesn't matter - with a majority Republican house, tax increases won't happen.

3) The FED can inflate the debt away:  This is the most likely option.  As the economy eventually pulls out of depression and starts growing (real growth, not debt driven expenditures via govt borrowing like we see now) interest rates will rise.  If interest rates rise the cost of borrowing for the US govt will increase.  This cannot be allowed to happen.  If interest rates go too high, the US will default as it will have to start borrowing money to pay interest payments on the debt.  Thus inflating the currency (printing money by the FED) will have two effects.  1) It will keep interest rates low by flooding liquidity in the market, and 2) it will decrease the real value of the debt.

The logical conclusion is that #3 is most likely to occur.  So what does that mean for us mundanes?  Well it means higher food and energy prices, lower real wages, and stagflation.

We are already experiencing this - the US Debt growth is outpacing GDP growth by a ratio of 3:1.  What does this mean?  Real economic activity is still decreasing, but the inflated prices makes it seem that the economy is growing.  THIS IS BAD FOR EVERYONE.

There is one awful scenario that the govt doesn't want to bring up is what happened during the 1970's.  As inflation began to get out of control (bordering hyperinflationary) the FED only had one option.  To raise interest rates like Volcker did.  However this option is no longer available.  US debt has exploded since 1980 to a point where a 20% interest rate would be fatal.

So the question is - are you prepared for coming hyper inflation?  Will you be one of the millions of its victims or will you be ready?

Lots of guesstimation and fearmongering going on with your post.

Which part is inaccurate?  If my numbers are wrong, prove it, if my analysis is wrong, prove it.  Otherwise you've contributed nothing.

Originally posted by LeKinK

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

First, no one is geting any states. Second, many countries have done this. Third if we can't afford stuff from China they have no one to sell to. They (the World) can't let the dollar fail because if we go down EVERYONE goes down. We are a consumer nation.

Originally posted by smokemonsc

Originally posted by Vato26

Originally posted by smokemonsc

Originally posted by LeKinK

Originally posted by seabass2003

If U.S. currency is a thing of the past I guess there is no need to pay China back. We can let them absorb our debt and tell them to screw off.

And that would seal your coffin. Nobody else on the surface of the globe would ever let you borrow money from them. My guess is you guys will give them Alaska and Hawai.

Alaska and Hawaii are sovereign states - they can't be sold to another country =p

Our dollar is doomed - the inflation China and other countries that have their currency pegged to the dollar will eventually cause the host country to break the peg.  This event (it will happen gradually, and is happening now) will cause our inflated dollars that we've been exporting for the past 40 years to come back to us - and it will hurt.  The Stagflation of the 1970's will be easy street compared to what's coming.  An even more sobering thought - we won't be able to raise interest rates like Volker did in 1981 to 21.8%.  The US govt is addicted to cheap short term credit that is being monatized by the Federal Reserve.  We have a 1.5 trillion dollar deficit NOW with short term interest costs of only 3-4%.  What do you think will happen to our debt service if it hits 21% again?

ANSWER = The govt will default.

So what are our options?  Well the US govt has 3 options

1) It can cut spending: We've already seen the pathetic 32 billion dollar proposal from RINO Paul Ryan.  32 billion from a 3 trillion budget is peanuts and won't do anything.  Rand Paul's more aggressive 500 billion in cuts is still not enough - the deficit is 1.5 TRILLION.  And even with the 500 billion in cuts the parasites in Washington are already squealing like stuck pigs!  Ending conclusion - Substantial cuts, necessary enough to balance the budget, unlikely

2) It can increase taxes:  The overall tax burden on US citizens is already one of the highest in the world - averaging 50-60% of earned income.  This includes property tax, municipal tax, state income tax, county sales taxes, federal income - everything.  Most articles I've read say the federal income tax would have to be increased by 25-50% in order to balance the budget.  However none of these articles try to predict what type of impact this would have on an economy during the middle of a depression.  It is incredibly unlikely that the expected revenues will be as high as they (the CBO) claims.  Especially considering their track record during this crisis.  In the end it doesn't matter - with a majority Republican house, tax increases won't happen.

3) The FED can inflate the debt away:  This is the most likely option.  As the economy eventually pulls out of depression and starts growing (real growth, not debt driven expenditures via govt borrowing like we see now) interest rates will rise.  If interest rates rise the cost of borrowing for the US govt will increase.  This cannot be allowed to happen.  If interest rates go too high, the US will default as it will have to start borrowing money to pay interest payments on the debt.  Thus inflating the currency (printing money by the FED) will have two effects.  1) It will keep interest rates low by flooding liquidity in the market, and 2) it will decrease the real value of the debt.

The logical conclusion is that #3 is most likely to occur.  So what does that mean for us mundanes?  Well it means higher food and energy prices, lower real wages, and stagflation.

We are already experiencing this - the US Debt growth is outpacing GDP growth by a ratio of 3:1.  What does this mean?  Real economic activity is still decreasing, but the inflated prices makes it seem that the economy is growing.  THIS IS BAD FOR EVERYONE.

There is one awful scenario that the govt doesn't want to bring up is what happened during the 1970's.  As inflation began to get out of control (bordering hyperinflationary) the FED only had one option.  To raise interest rates like Volcker did.  However this option is no longer available.  US debt has exploded since 1980 to a point where a 20% interest rate would be fatal.

So the question is - are you prepared for coming hyper inflation?  Will you be one of the millions of its victims or will you be ready?

Lots of guesstimation and fearmongering going on with your post.

Which part is inaccurate?  If my numbers are wrong, prove it, if my analysis is wrong, prove it.  Otherwise you've contributed nothing.

Blue:  Fearmongering.

Red:  Proof?  Where's your sources for this information?

Green:  That's your opinions.

Purple:  Sorry, but that is completely ludicrous statement.  $500 billion in budget cuts are not enough?  Ludicrous.  Of course you are one of the individuals that are touting such a small Federal government that it would be on the verge of Anarchy.

You know what i think is funny:

The US "steals" a lot of wealth from the EU (we have a lot of inventors moving to the US where the products are produced and than sold back to the EU so we basically invent stuff and the US profits from it) , we have a lot more social expenses and yet the US manages to get into huge deficits.

Now off course our deficits are often huge as well but you'd think with less social spending and wealth moving away from us to the US the US should do much much better.

But there are two major differences:

A) Much less taxes

B) Much more Military spending

Maybe the US should look at those things. Because obviously it's not the social spending. Otherwise the EU should have bankrupted a long time ago or the US shouldn't have any budget problems.

Because you see both social spending and tax reductions have ambiguous effects. They both stimulate the economy and reduce the governments budget. What is funny however is that many on these forum seem to think social spending = pure evil and lower taxes = pure win.

If the FED try and inflate their debt away, the Chinese just peg their currency to the dollar.

Originally posted by generals3

You know what i think is funny:

The US "steals" a lot of wealth from the EU (we have a lot of inventors moving to the US where the products are produced and than sold back to the EU so we basically invent stuff and the US profits from it) , we have a lot more social expenses and yet the US manages to get into huge deficits.

Now off course our deficits are often huge as well but you'd think with less social spending and wealth moving away from us to the US the US should do much much better.

But there are two major differences:

A) Much less taxes

B) Much more Military spending

Maybe the US should look at those things. Because obviously it's not the social spending. Otherwise the EU should have bankrupted a long time ago or the US shouldn't have any budget problems.

Because you see both social spending and tax reductions have ambiguous effects. They both stimulate the economy and reduce the governments budget. What is funny however is that many on these forum seem to think social spending = pure evil and lower taxes = pure win.

Greece.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by generals3

You know what i think is funny:

The US "steals" a lot of wealth from the EU (we have a lot of inventors moving to the US where the products are produced and than sold back to the EU so we basically invent stuff and the US profits from it) , we have a lot more social expenses and yet the US manages to get into huge deficits.

Now off course our deficits are often huge as well but you'd think with less social spending and wealth moving away from us to the US the US should do much much better.

But there are two major differences:

A) Much less taxes

B) Much more Military spending

Maybe the US should look at those things. Because obviously it's not the social spending. Otherwise the EU should have bankrupted a long time ago or the US shouldn't have any budget problems.

Because you see both social spending and tax reductions have ambiguous effects. They both stimulate the economy and reduce the governments budget. What is funny however is that many on these forum seem to think social spending = pure evil and lower taxes = pure win.

 

Greece.

Greece = entire europe now?

Greece and some other countries did/are doing extremely badly, corruption , inefficiency and above massive spending combined with low productivity. But those are extremes. What about countries like Germany, Sweden, UK , France, etc... Not all are doing extremely well but not much worse as the US either.

And if the lower taxes= pure win and social spending = pure evil was true every country with higher taxes and social spending should have gone bankrupted by now.

EDIT: My point is actually that if you want to stop a deficit you don't reduce the income and spending of a government. You either increase the income or reduce the spending, doing both leads you nowhere. Hence why i always find it funny when people who want the US deficit to reduce on the conservative side ask for both taxes and spending to go down. Now it can work as the effects are ambiguous and it is almost impossible to calculate the net effect with certainty but from an intuitive point of view the net result would be null.

Unless of course your taxes are extremely high, but considering a lot of wealth is already fleeing the EU for the US the US doesn't belong to that category.

Originally posted by generals3

Greece and some other countries did/are doing extremely badly, corruption , inefficiency and above massive spending combined with low productivity.

 Bullshit. Greece and some other countries are doing extremely well.

They retire at 50 and the people who pay for it are German. They all have new houses, new cars and great pension schemes. Corruption is working for them just fine.

It's not the people that social spending gets spent on that have all the problems. It's the people who have to work twice as hard to fund it. There are always winners and losers.

The problem with social spending is that it is a willful move by the politicians to buy votes.

So once a government gets over half of it's people on the payroll, in a democracy, it can never lose power. It will always get voted back in as long as it keeps paying.

To do that it needs to keep taxing, or taxing and borrowing. And if that fucks over all those people who don't vote for them... good. These are the people that need to be demonised in order to rob them. You know, the old cliche's. The rich the landed, the banks.

So the danger is that a socialist government takes us past the tipping point. 51%.

The cost for this is high. We lose all political freedom, we lose all economic impetus.

Short term this keeps socialist governments in power, but long term it does enormous damage to a country. Destroys it's economy.

A little bit of socialism is a good thing. But socialism isn't something that is ever happy to stay little. It's like The Blob. The beaurocracy is self feeding and grows and grows uncheckably until it's all thats left. It strangles capitalism like weeds strangle flowers.

As for the EU, it's no different than the U.S. in this regard. The rich states pay for the poor ones.The rich ones want to leave the union. The poor ones do not. Winners and losers. They do socialism too, but so far they haven't reached the tipping point. They are still in a position to place controls on it.

Originally posted by baff

 

Originally posted by generals3

Greece and some other countries did/are doing extremely badly, corruption , inefficiency and above massive spending combined with low productivity.

 Bullshit. Greece and some other countries are doing extremely well.

They retire at 50 and the people who pay for it are German. They all have new houses, new cars and great pension schemes. Corruption is working for them just fine.

 

It's not the people that social spending gets spent on that have all the problems. It's the people who have to work twice as hard to fund it. There are always winners and losers.

 

The problem with social spending is that it is a willful move by the politicians to buy votes.

So once a government gets over half of it's people on the payroll, in a democracy, it can never lose power. It will always get voted back in as long as it keeps paying.

 

To do that it needs to keep taxing, or taxing and borrowing. And if that fucks over all those people who don't vote for them... good. These are the people that need to be demonised in order to rob them. You know, the old cliche's. The rich the landed, the banks.

 

So the danger is that a socialist government takes us past the tipping point.

The cost for this is high. We lose all political freedom, we lose all economic impetus.

 

Short term this keeps socialist governments in power, but long term it does enormous damage to a country. Destroys it's economy.

 

A little bit of socialism is a good thing. But socialism isn't something is ever happy to stay little. It's like The Blob. The beaurocracy is self feeding and grows and grows uncheckably until it's all thats left.

 

 

As for the EU, it's no different than the U.S. in this regard. The rich states pay for the poor ones.The rich ones want to leave the union. The poor ones do not. Winners and losers.

That's why i was taking the states on their own in consideration. You cannot keep on leeching wealth forever. Just look at Belgium. Why do you think we don't have a govt? The Flemish are sick and tired to pay for the Walloon socialism and the Walloons don't want to give more autonomy to the Flemish. One could argue Wallonia is doing very well as they get a lot for what they're doing but alone it's one of the poorest region in europe.

I think you can keep on leeching wealth forever.

A lot of coutnries are paid to keep quiet. In the U.K.; Scotland, Wales and Ireland for example.

They leech away, but it's better to pay them than it is to fight them.

Gibralter is another example. It can leech forever. Everyone in the world is queuing up to pay them. Always will be.

But it's self defeating in a democratic system. Because the most populace has the power. So if the populations of Ireland Scotland and Wales combine to be greater than England, then England becomes a nation of servants.

As the Flems may have.

So you need a different politcal system. An oligarchy or some such were population size is not important as economic drivers.  Where people who take on responsability are more valued and respected and entrusted and empowered by society than those who do not.

Then Scotland, Ireland and Wales can still leech away, but they can't fuck the whole thing over for everyone.

You can just secede of course... but that way lies war.

When you get a few million people who are used to being supported by their neighbours and those neighbour cut off supply, you suddenly get a lot of angry, hungry people with nothing much to lose. Like what you have in Korea for example or in the former Soviet Union when the Russians stopped subsidising everyone.

Originally posted by baff

I think you can keep on leeching wealth forever.

A lot of coutnries are paid to keep quiet. In the U.K.; Scotland, Wales and Ireland for example.

 

They leech away, but it's better to pay them than it is to fight them.

 

But it's self defeating in a democratic system. Because the most populace has the power. So if the populations of Ireland Scotland and Wales combine to be greater than England, then England becomes a nation of servants.

As the Flems may have.

 

So you need a different politcal system. An oligarchy or some such were population size is not important as economic drivers.  Where people who take on responsability are more valued and respected and entrusted and empowered by society than those who do not.

 

Then Scotland, Ireland and Wales can still leech away, but they can't fuck the whole thing over for everyone.

Well that is a valid suggestion. I personally do believe in a "elitist" democratic system.

Winners and losers matey.

In a democracy, I'm one of the losers.

The elite just screw me over to stay elite.

The top 10% of income earners pay 50% of the income taxes here. A minority that small is always open to democratic abuse.

Intrestingly prior to WW2, before we had social services here... 80% of the population didn't pay any tax at all. 

Nowadays everybody does. Even those whose money comes directly from taxation pay tax on it.