Originally posted by Cecropia

This is what happens when an important term has no agreed upon definition. Everybody goes ahead and twists things to their own desire. Suddenly now, WoW is a sandbox...POOF! Some even claim it could be more "sandboxy" than EVE...GASP!

In RL humans are true masters of this phenomenon. If science or any form of logic cannot explain something, there will always be those that take the initiative and just make something up. The scary part is, other people seem to end up following.

I actually don't MIND the really simple, easy to use explanation "Sandbox is freedom, theme park is directed content", just because it's SO easy to show how that makes sandbox a purely relative thing, and that MMORPGs boasting about being 'sandbox' is like a bunch of turtles talking about how one of them is 'really fast'.  Sure.  Fast... for a turtle.

Good thing no one said WoW is a sandbox. 

Venge

The differences between sandbox oriented MMORPG's and themepark oriented MMORPG's are far smaller and far blurrier than a lot of people give credit for.

It's often more of a certain focus or prevalence of certain features in a game, a design philosophy of how these features were being handled and used that differed from how the same features were being used or implemented in another game.

Iirc WoW was the first MMORPG that was called with the back-then new term 'themepark MMORPG', and looking back at what made people use that term or recognise what it implies, it's more of a feeling, a perception than concrete requirements. If I should guess, it was Blizzard's design philosophy and approach towards MMORPG design that gave rise to this feel of 'themepark' when playing WoW after its predecessors: a smaller MMO world with a higher content density which was done on purpose, high accessibility ('handholding' by lack of a better word) and a less unforgiving gameplay, and most of all, a leveling experience that was predominantly catered for by a guided questing experience from one quest hub to the next.

The argument can be made that when looked at it differently, WoW has 'sandbox features': but there was a reason for that WoW was initially called a 'themepark MMO', the first of that kind, features or a 'look and feel' that made it be experienced differently from its predecessors or from MMO's that are now called 'sandbox MMO's" (justly or unjustly).

A feel as if you were on a 'theme park', if you will.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Absolutely nobody has made the argument that WoW is a sandbox game.

The original comment was that WoW is definitely a themepark MMORPG, but it still has some sandbox elements... and more than some people will admit to.

Meh, this post wasn't there yet before I started writing my own post.

Ah well, consider this new post an addition to your post, not a counter towards it

That seems quite reasonable Mr. Maverick, and I'm not going to argue with you on that.  Also, in addition to adding a TOTALLY AWESOME avatar picture (People said I was MAD when I said I could breed a red haired part Asian baby, MAD.  Now who's laughing?  AAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAA... Ha), I've realized I can make people my friends.

I'm now going to start friending everybody who can make a reasonable argument, whether or not I actually agree with it.

(edit:  Random note.  I think I type these messages a lot faster than most people do on the forums, as I'll often ninja people repeatedly, and that's in between posting in three other topics, and another forum.  Either I type really fast, or I just put less thought into what I say.  Nothing wrong with being an airheaded secretary, I guess.  Helps broaden the casting in detective shows.)

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

I'm sorry, I know some people in this thread love/like WoW very much and that they're trying to make a point implying that a number of MMORPG gamers don't really know what they want in their MMO games, which is a valid discussion.

 

But saying that WoW is a sandbox game is simply hilarious, especially since it was WoW that introduced the whole concept and design philosophy of 'themepark MMORPG': World of Warcraft by its very design defined the very concept of 'themepark MMO' as the 1st MMO that was recognised as such.

Absolutely nobody has made the argument that WoW is a sandbox game.

The original comment was that WoW is definitely a themepark MMORPG, but it still has some sandbox elements... and more than some people will admit to.

Personally, I find the whole sandbox argument hilarious, because people apply so many different definitions to it, it's almost completely useless as a term here in mmorpg.com (Despite claims that there's a unified front and answer and that us people who don't 'get' sandboxes should have been paying more attention)

Some people insist it needs FFA PvP, some people insist there can't be any quests.  Some people say that player housing is an integral part of the sandpark experience.  I totally understand why that one thread was started to try and create an agreed upon gaming lexicon.  Making statements like 'Sandbox is about freedom' leaves the definition glaringly open to all sorts of abuse (As I love cheerily demonstrating with the Second Life example)

You're right that no one claimed WoW was a Sandbox game. And that did get convoluted here. But the real issue is that there are people here, like Axehilt, and like you just now, that are trying to make it look like "Sandbox gamers" don't know what they want. That's not the case at all. We all know what a sandbox game is and what isn't.

The rest, the sorts of things you just pointed to, are debates with the Sandbox genre itself. That doesn't change what a Sandbox is or isn't. Yes, some few poeple say that 'Sandbox" needs wide open PvP and many don't agree. But none of them would say that a PvP server in WoW is a Sandbox game, even if you added looting.

So what if there's a lot of different opinions within "Sandbox"? There's the same within "Themepark".

Originally posted by Amaranthar

You're right that no one claimed WoW was a Sandbox game. And that did get convoluted here. But the real issue is that there are people here, like Axehilt, and like you just now, that are trying to make it look like "Sandbox gamers" don't know what they want. That's not the case at all. We all know what a sandbox game is and what isn't.

The rest, the sorts of things you just pointed to, are debates with the Sandbox genre itself. That doesn't change what a Sandbox is or isn't. Yes, some few poeple say that 'Sandbox" needs wide open PvP and many don't agree. But none of them would say that a PvP server in WoW is a Sandbox game, even if you added looting.

So what if there's a lot of different opinions within "Sandbox"? There's the same within "Themepark".

Actually, I've seen people say Earthrise is/isn't a Sandbox, that MO is/isn't a sandbox, that EVE is/isn't a sandbox, that Ryzom is/isn't a sandbox.

Some sandbox fans are REALLY picky!  I mean, like super picky!

I insist you DON'T all know what a sandbox game is, and what isn't.  It's really easy in obvious cases... WoW is a theme park.  It's THE theme park, so to speak.  It's like Disney World of MMORPGs.

There is no simple, unified definition that allows people to neatly divide games into two camps though.  People also keep tacking on all sorts of things to 'this is a sandbox' that I would consider completely extraneous.  Like FFA PvP (Some people SWEAR by that though.  I have seen more than one person in threads insisting a real MMO has to have FFA PvP or it's just a carebear game wanting to be a theme park)  Just look at the beginning of this topic.  Look at the explanation of a sandbox.  It's more like the poster is describing a specific game, rather than a genre.  The definition of Theme park that was given is most definitely 'WoW'.  As if gear based grinding was an absolute dividing line between theme park and sandbox.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Also, in addition to adding a TOTALLY AWESOME avatar picture (People said I was MAD when I said I could breed a red haired part Asian baby, MAD.  Now who's laughing?  AAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAA... Ha)

Heh, kudos. And yep, genetics is a great creation game: although not sure whether it's a 'themepark' or 'sandbox' sort

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

The differences between sandbox oriented MMORPG's and themepark oriented MMORPG's are far smaller and far blurrier than a lot of people give credit for.

It's often more of a certain focus or prevalence of certain features in a game, a design philosophy of how these features were being handled and used that differed from how the same features were being used or implemented in another game.

 

Iirc WoW was the first MMORPG that was called with the back-then new term 'themepark MMORPG', and looking back at what made people use that term or recognise what it implies, it's more of a feeling, a perception than concrete requirements. If I should guess, it was Blizzard's design philosophy and approach towards MMORPG design that gave rise to this feel of 'themepark' when playing WoW after its predecessors: a smaller MMO world with a higher content density which was done on purpose, high accessibility ('handholding' by lack of a better word) and a less unforgiving gameplay, and most of all, a leveling experience that was predominantly catered for by a guided questing experience from one quest hub to the next.

 

The argument can be made that when looked at it differently, WoW has 'sandbox features': but there was a reason for that WoW was initially called a 'themepark MMO', the first of that kind, features or a 'look and feel' that made it be experienced differently from its predecessors or from MMO's that are now called 'sandbox MMO's" (justly or unjustly).

A feel as if you were on a 'theme park', if you will.

 

Originally posted by Meowhead

Absolutely nobody has made the argument that WoW is a sandbox game.

The original comment was that WoW is definitely a themepark MMORPG, but it still has some sandbox elements... and more than some people will admit to.

Meh, this post wasn't there yet before I started writing my own post.

Ah well, consider this new post an addition to your post, not a counter towards it

EQ was where the "Themepark" term originated. Exactly for the reasons you pointed out.

The reason is because of the level grind. With such power gaps created between levels, you have to divide the game world into zones tailored for groups of levels. And once you do that, you have to show players a way around so they don't get lost in the wrong zones. That's where the term came from. Like being at a Themepark and using your tickets to see the whole park. Here to here to here to here.

"Sandbox" came about at the same time. UO was the first major MMORPG, and it didn't have this "ticket to ride" play style.

So, UO was a "Sandbox", and EQ was a "Themepark". It's that simple. It's how you play the game.

And WoW took " Themepark" to an all new level. They refined it to what works the best in such a game.

We're still waiting for someone to do that for "Sandbox".

I find the last post amusing because I was lectured by some 'MMO vets' on how vanilla EQ was a sandbox game and how they should do games more like that.  Ha.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Actually, I've seen people say Earthrise is/isn't a Sandbox, that MO is/isn't a sandbox, that EVE is/isn't a sandbox, that Ryzom is/isn't a sandbox.

Some sandbox fans are REALLY picky!  I mean, like super picky!

I insist you DON'T all know what a sandbox game is, and what isn't.  It's really easy in obvious cases... WoW is a theme park.  It's THE theme park, so to speak.  It's like Disney World of MMORPGs.

There is no simple, unified definition that allows people to neatly divide games into two camps though.  People also keep tacking on all sorts of things to 'this is a sandbox' that I would consider completely extraneous. 

You have to start at the edges and the core, just like with songs, with some of them you can say 'yeah, that's clearly rock or soul or dance, those songs are the very defining essence of that genre' and then you look at the songs that are more inbetweeners.

So, relating it to MMORPG's: what MMO's are what made people think of the subgenres 'themepark MMO' and 'sandbox MMO'?

For WoW it's clear, it was the game that gave rise to the term 'themepark MMORPG'.

But I'd say MMO's like UO, EVE Online and SWG are sandbox oriented.

Also, the lack of features doesn't make an MMORPG automatically 'sandbox', that's all too easy. I'd call older MMO's that didn't have the abundance of features current MMO's have simply 'old school'.

EQ is an 'old school' MMORPG, but not a sandbox MMO.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

So, UO was a "Sandbox", and EQ was a "Themepark". It's that simple. It's how you play the game.

In the years that I played EQ, I've never heard EQ being described or tagged 'themepark' by MMORPG gamers, nor for DAoC or AC. It was when WoW came out that I first heard of this term, and it was always used in combination with WoW.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Amaranthar

You're right that no one claimed WoW was a Sandbox game. And that did get convoluted here. But the real issue is that there are people here, like Axehilt, and like you just now, that are trying to make it look like "Sandbox gamers" don't know what they want. That's not the case at all. We all know what a sandbox game is and what isn't.

The rest, the sorts of things you just pointed to, are debates with the Sandbox genre itself. That doesn't change what a Sandbox is or isn't. Yes, some few poeple say that 'Sandbox" needs wide open PvP and many don't agree. But none of them would say that a PvP server in WoW is a Sandbox game, even if you added looting.

So what if there's a lot of different opinions within "Sandbox"? There's the same within "Themepark".

Actually, I've seen people say Earthrise is/isn't a Sandbox, that MO is/isn't a sandbox, that EVE is/isn't a sandbox, that Ryzom is/isn't a sandbox.

Some sandbox fans are REALLY picky!  I mean, like super picky!

I insist you DON'T all know what a sandbox game is, and what isn't.  It's really easy in obvious cases... WoW is a theme park.  It's THE theme park, so to speak.  It's like Disney World of MMORPGs.

There is no simple, unified definition that allows people to neatly divide games into two camps though.  People also keep tacking on all sorts of things to 'this is a sandbox' that I would consider completely extraneous.  Like FFA PvP (Some people SWEAR by that though.  I have seen more than one person in threads insisting a real MMO has to have FFA PvP or it's just a carebear game wanting to be a theme park)  Just look at the beginning of this topic.  Look at the explanation of a sandbox.  It's more like the poster is describing a specific game, rather than a genre.  The definition of Theme park that was given is most definitely 'WoW'.  As if gear based grinding was an absolute dividing line between theme park and sandbox.

Well, if you read what I just posted, you'll there there is a definition, based on how a game is made to be played. The cases you site, I've seen them too. I cringe when I see them.

Originally posted by Meowhead

I find the last post amusing because I was lectured by some 'MMO vets' on how vanilla EQ was a sandbox game and how they should do games more like that.  Ha.

I've seen that stuff too. As someone who wants "Sandbox", I'm not amused at all.

I chose hybrid themepark/sandbox.

As I like the themepark quests, it does get old just doing that .

I also like the open ended sandbox game because of the customization, but sometimes you just wanna do a quest to mix it up, 

What I am looking for is a sandbox style game with a storyline, maybe a main quest storyline, but not run here kill x amount of mobs, go her collect x amount of things.  A meaningful storyline based quest chain that will give a bit of background and lore to an open-ended game for you to build off of.  Not one that ends in raiding over and over to get equipment.

At which point a child becomes an adult? Same thing with sandboxes and themeparks. Where you draw the line is completely arbitrary!

Since 99.99% of the topics here are about sandbox and theme park/linear MMOs and the differences of these conceptions and misconceptions, I purpose we sticky this thread or a thread like it just to cut all the unnecessary threads that will be made in the future by frustrated so-called MMO veterans looking for a good sandbox MMO. Seriously, the number of discussions of, "linear vs sandbox" and "this is linear, this is sandbox" on this forum is mindnumbing and sickening.

Thats what I was hoping for for FFXI.  All there other games had story, a purpose.  Thats why I play Istaria, there is a purpose to the game.

I was so dissapointed in FF that way.

I want lots of choice in what to do and how I play (so sandbox), but I also want an overall goal/purpose for the game - be it an eternal war or save the world... something to give some meaning to why I'm bothering to level/skill...

Venge

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Well, if you read what I just posted, you'll there there is a definition, based on how a game is made to be played. The cases you site, I've seen them too. I cringe when I see them.

See?  You just admitted people don't all agree.  You can't blame me for being confused when I have 50 different people all saying they are sandbox fans, and that they have the right definition.  You can't tell me 'Well, the difference is you can only listen to the real sandbox fans', because... well, you dont' have signs on your back.

Also, you didn't define sandbox.

You said that a theme park is a game with a level grind and questing to help guide the player to level appropriate areas...

... but does that mean you are defining sandbox as 'Games that are not that'?  That's not a good way to define things.  If I ask for what a cat is, you can't tell me what a dog is and say 'And a cat is not a dog'

I'm not trying to be too difficult, I just want your straightforward definition, and PLEASE don't tell me to look at the forum consensus, because I might as well just toss a bunch of random words together and do Sandbox Definition Mad Libs.

Sandbox for me.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Well, if you read what I just posted, you'll there there is a definition, based on how a game is made to be played. The cases you site, I've seen them too. I cringe when I see them.

See?  You just admitted people don't all agree.  You can't blame me for being confused when I have 50 different people all saying they are sandbox fans, and that they have the right definition.  You can't tell me 'Well, the difference is you can only listen to the real sandbox fans', because... well, you dont' have signs on your back.

Also, you didn't define sandbox.

You said that a theme park is a game with a level grind and questing to help guide the player to level appropriate areas...

... but does that mean you are defining sandbox as 'Games that are not that'?  That's not a good way to define things.  If I ask for what a cat is, you can't tell me what a dog is and say 'And a cat is not a dog'

I'm not trying to be too difficult, I just want your straightforward definition, and PLEASE don't tell me to look at the forum consensus, because I might as well just toss a bunch of random words together and do Sandbox Definition Mad Libs.

Oh for the love of all that is holy. Will you just stop trying to be so dense? It's really pretty simple. Yes, Sandbox is "not Themepark". But that assumes you're talking about a game world. I'm only saying that so you don't come back with "So a potato is a Sandbox game?"  And it doesn't address what a "good Sandbox" is.

You are indeed trying to be difficult. You and others are trying your best to be absolutely obtuse about all this.

Interesting, the number of pure sandbox or sandbox hybrid votes, btw.

I'm starting to see why themepark oriented MMO's or new MMO's that follow that design approach are so out-of-proportionately getting scorned and bashed on the mmorpg.com forums.

The percentage of sandbox oriented MMO gamers on these forums are far, far from being representative for the MMO market. Maybe it's because most themepark MMO gamers are just happily playing their games, and most sandbox oriented MMO gamers are still seeking for an MMO to satisfy them, and end up on sites like this one.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Yes, Sandbox is "not Themepark".

? Right.

I wouldn't consider EQ, AC, AO, DAoC and Planetside all to be themepark MMO's, but neither are they all sandbox MMO's.