Originally posted by Axehilt

Saying WOW has few, if any, sandbox elements exhibits a lack of understanding of the core of what sandbox is.

Sandbox is player freedom.  When you choose between 4 starting zones and 2-3 zones at any given level to quest in, that's player freedom.  When you choose to run dungeons or craft or PVP or socialize, that's player freedom.  When you choose to switch specs, that's player freedom.

Overall WOW doesn't offer a completely blank slate for players to do anything they want, and it's certainly a themepark MMORPG.  But to say it offers few sandbox elements is a gross oversimplification.  Every MMORPG out there involves both linear and nonlinear elements.  It's just an overall tilt that determines whether players label it themepark or sandbox.

I would argue that sandboxes are determined more by player driven content, not freedom. If you look at games like EvE and Ryzom, sure, you have plenty of freedom, but the defining aspect is that the players control the overall state of the game, not the developers.

Other - as long as I'm having fun it can be a Themebox, Sandpark or a Litterbox with kitty poo in it... Fun is the main purpose of my playstyle.

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by Neloth

Originally posted by Axehilt

Saying WOW has few, if any, sandbox elements exhibits a lack of understanding of the core of what sandbox is.

Sandbox is player freedom.  When you choose between 4 starting zones and 2-3 zones at any given level to quest in, that's player freedom.  When you choose to run dungeons or craft or PVP or socialize, that's player freedom.  When you choose to switch specs, that's player freedom.

Overall WOW doesn't offer a completely blank slate for players to do anything they want, and it's certainly a themepark MMORPG.  But to say it offers few sandbox elements is a gross oversimplification.  Every MMORPG out there involves both linear and nonlinear elements.  It's just an overall tilt that determines whether players label it themepark or sandbox.

People on this site should really pay attention to this quote

Really? I was just about to reply Axehilts post; This guy has no clue what 'player freedom' means. If your definition of player freedom is to choose on which zone you grind your exp, or when you choose to 'switch specs', you clearly have no idea what player freedom means.

No offense but if only game you have ever played is WoW, don't even bother to post about player freedom.

That is so true, most of todays gamers only play a few MMOs and WoW being thier primairy MMO, haven't really exprienced much. 

Originally posted by Illius

Going by your definitions I picked option 3.  If for whatever reason option 3 was not available I'd go with option 2.  Option 1 was never an option for me.

I too don't need giant exclamation or question marks and shiny sparkly arrows telling me where to go.  I'm perfectly capable of finding my own way.  I'm also tired of being an errand boy.  Let me give you an example.

The other day I loaded up Neverwinter Nights (no not the old mmo, the one made by atari, predecessor to NWN2) and decided to go play on one of the "persistent world" servers.  I walk in, talk to the first npc to see what the deal is and the npc was already asking me to fetch some statue she forgot to get because she was in a hurry and ran out the door.  This annoyed me to the point that I actually used a sleep spell, knocked her out and then took out my dagger and "coup de grace"-d her, killing her instantly.  Lo and behold, an admin shows up and asks me why I killed the npc and I tell them that I'm no errand boy and refuse to do her bidding.  The fact that she had the gall to ask me something like that put her on my "must kill" list.  I figured she was right there in front of me, and on the list so I did away with her.  Sure enough I got banned.

In any case, the more I try the new games nowadays the more I see the stupid errands they send me on, asking me to deliver this, or bring back that, or kill so many of somesuch.  This is not questing.  My GF asks me to take out the garbage, or clean the dishes, or open a jar and it's no different then doing that crap in a game.  The fact that people aplaud this kind of lack luster, unimaginative writing is what makes me sad for this genre.

for making me laugh.  The GM is an idiot.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4065378/I-want-themepark-MMOs-because-I-fail.html#4065378

Don't mind me, I'll just leave this link here to answer your question...

By the way, I don't think this is a very well done poll.  For one thing, your explanation of a themepark sounded more like an explanation of what it means to be WoW.

There's lots of bias-laden phrasing overall.  I mean, you really talk up the good points of sandboxes, and emphasize the negative parts of themeparks.

I think the poll would be more interesting (If not any more balanced) if you described themeparks as "Well designed, structured and easy to enjoy efficiently, lots of carefully crafted content", and described sandbox with terms like 'Aimless gameplay, lots of wasted space, low budget', and so on. :D

I picked hybrid, because I play one....

There are days when I want to run missions, days when I want to explore, days when I want to scavenge/craft my butt off, and days when I feel like pwning face. Of course there are also days where I feel like doing all of the above, and do

I hate being restricted to a single "class" and not having freedom in how I build my character. I like player-driven content, but I like there to be PvE quests too, so I don't have to rely on others to help create my fun. I don't like tab-targetting or autoattack and GCDs give me ulcers...(I'm getting pickier as I get older) so the majority of themeparks leave me cold. OTOH, PK-ing is not my thing and full looting gives me a different type of ulcer...so many sandboxes don't do it for me either.

I'm happy where I am, playing in my theme-box (sand-park? Is there an official hybrid shorthand?) and everytime I try something new, I find I'm happier than ever to stay where I am.

Originally posted by wallet113

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by Neloth

Originally posted by Axehilt

Saying WOW has few, if any, sandbox elements exhibits a lack of understanding of the core of what sandbox is.

Sandbox is player freedom.  When you choose between 4 starting zones and 2-3 zones at any given level to quest in, that's player freedom.  When you choose to run dungeons or craft or PVP or socialize, that's player freedom.  When you choose to switch specs, that's player freedom.

Overall WOW doesn't offer a completely blank slate for players to do anything they want, and it's certainly a themepark MMORPG.  But to say it offers few sandbox elements is a gross oversimplification.  Every MMORPG out there involves both linear and nonlinear elements.  It's just an overall tilt that determines whether players label it themepark or sandbox.

People on this site should really pay attention to this quote

Really? I was just about to reply Axehilts post; This guy has no clue what 'player freedom' means. If your definition of player freedom is to choose on which zone you grind your exp, or when you choose to 'switch specs', you clearly have no idea what player freedom means.

No offense but if only game you have ever played is WoW, don't even bother to post about player freedom.

That is so true, most of todays gamers only play a few MMOs and WoW being thier primairy MMO, haven't really exprienced much. 

Both of you start with the assumption that WoW is the only (or one of only few) MMO(s) Axehilt has played. If ad hominem is your only argument, you'd be better off keeping your opinions to yourself.

There's plenty of freedom in many games but some people merely choose to acknowledge only a handful. This thread is bound to end up in a flame war over definitions and semantics.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by wallet113

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by Neloth

Originally posted by Axehilt

Saying WOW has few, if any, sandbox elements exhibits a lack of understanding of the core of what sandbox is.

Sandbox is player freedom.  When you choose between 4 starting zones and 2-3 zones at any given level to quest in, that's player freedom.  When you choose to run dungeons or craft or PVP or socialize, that's player freedom.  When you choose to switch specs, that's player freedom.

Overall WOW doesn't offer a completely blank slate for players to do anything they want, and it's certainly a themepark MMORPG.  But to say it offers few sandbox elements is a gross oversimplification.  Every MMORPG out there involves both linear and nonlinear elements.  It's just an overall tilt that determines whether players label it themepark or sandbox.

People on this site should really pay attention to this quote

Really? I was just about to reply Axehilts post; This guy has no clue what 'player freedom' means. If your definition of player freedom is to choose on which zone you grind your exp, or when you choose to 'switch specs', you clearly have no idea what player freedom means.

No offense but if only game you have ever played is WoW, don't even bother to post about player freedom.

That is so true, most of todays gamers only play a few MMOs and WoW being thier primairy MMO, haven't really exprienced much. 

Both of you start with the assumption that WoW is the only (or one of only few) MMO(s) Axehilt has played. If ad hominem is your only argument, you'd be better off keeping your opinions to yourself.

 

There's plenty of freedom in many games but some people merely choose to acknowledge only a handful. This thread is bound to end up in a flame war over definitions and semantics.

I don't care how many games he's played.

He either doesn't understand what "freedom" means in the context players are using it, or he is trying to undermine the meaning and concept of such games. 

Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooooooooooooom!

Voted Sand Box

FFXI describes the best play style for me. The quests in that game are good and its not about killing 10 crabs thank god.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

I don't care how many games he's played.

He either doesn't understand what "freedom" means in the context players are using it, or he is trying to undermine the meaning and concept of such games. 

I personally think any less freedom than Second Life and you're basically playing a theme park.  Does that mean I'm better at freedom than you, and you're missing the meaning and concept because you're just not free-minded enough?

I mean, c'mon.  Does your game have pre-made in-game models?  Sure, you can tweak some sliders, maybe change a few colors, but big deal!

I bet your sandbox of choice also has built in combat rules.  Can you redefine the meaning of combat?  Create your own monsters?  Can you switch from an Arabian setting to an SF one to vampires?

How much freedom does your 'sandbox' really give you?  Really?  LImitless freedom?  Hardly.

Can you be a cake decorator in your game?  How many arms can you have?  Games, by their very nature, restrict your freedom.  If you have limitless freedom, it's no longer a game.  Games consist of rules.

A true sandbox game would have you and the game developers sitting in a room, and as you talk to them they modify things to your whims.  On the spot.

I think people should admit it's not like there's these big zones, and sandboxes are all over here, and theme parks are all over there, and hybrids huddling in the middle, segregated from both.  It's a sliding scale, on multiple different subjects... games can have sandbox aspects in some areas, and then lack them in others.

I tend to agree with Axehilt and Meowhead.  Saying WoW does not have sandboxy elements is a lie.  Yes sandbox also needs player driven areas or some way to affect the game world (Which Ryzom doesn't yet we still call that a sandbox).

But Wow does give more choices than say EQ, which means it has more freedom and is therefore more sandboxy than EQ.

Eve may have more (I disagree but thats another arguement), but to say it has not is rediculous.

It's a scale with second life on one end and something else on the super mario bros on the other, WoW is somewhere in the middle.

Venge

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Amaranthar

I don't care how many games he's played.

He either doesn't understand what "freedom" means in the context players are using it, or he is trying to undermine the meaning and concept of such games. 

I personally think any less freedom than Second Life and you're basically playing a theme park.  Does that mean I'm better at freedom than you, and you're missing the meaning and concept because you're just not free-minded enough?

I mean, c'mon.  Does your game have pre-made in-game models?  Sure, you can tweak some sliders, maybe change a few colors, but big deal!

I bet your sandbox of choice also has built in combat rules.  Can you redefine the meaning of combat?  Create your own monsters?  Can you switch from an Arabian setting to an SF one to vampires?

How much freedom does your 'sandbox' really give you?  Really?  LImitless freedom?  Hardly.

Can you be a cake decorator in your game?  How many arms can you have?  Games, by their very nature, restrict your freedom.  If you have limitless freedom, it's no longer a game.  Games consist of rules.

A true sandbox game would have you and the game developers sitting in a room, and as you talk to them they modify things to your whims.  On the spot.

I think people should admit it's not like there's these big zones, and sandboxes are all over here, and theme parks are all over there, and hybrids huddling in the middle, segregated from both.  It's a sliding scale, on multiple different subjects... games can have sandbox aspects in some areas, and then lack them in others.

Frankly, that's about as dumb an argument as anyone can make. The old "take it so far it falls off the cliff" argument.

And it puts you squarely in the same category as Axehilt. You either don't understand at all (despite the fact that it's been explained so many, many times) or you are trying to undermine it.

The take it off the cliff, take it to the extreme is a very valid way to determine the overall effectiveness of your argument.  It's even taught as a rational when trying to decide between two answers on the MCAT.

It doesn't apply to everything but the sliding scale argument definately does apply.  Sandbox is about freedom.  The more freedom you have the more sandbox you have.  WoW has more freedom than some games making it more sandboxy than them.

Venge

I'm sorry, I know some people in this thread love/like WoW very much and that they're trying to make a point implying that a number of MMORPG gamers don't really know what they want in their MMO games, which is a valid discussion.

But saying that WoW is a sandbox game is simply hilarious, especially since it was WoW that introduced the whole concept and design philosophy of 'themepark MMORPG': World of Warcraft by its very design defined the very concept of 'themepark MMO' as the 1st MMO that was recognised as such.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I tend to agree with Axehilt and Meowhead.  Saying WoW does not have sandboxy elements is a lie.  Yes sandbox also needs player driven areas or some way to affect the game world (Which Ryzom doesn't yet we still call that a sandbox).

But Wow does give more choices than say EQ, which means it has more freedom and is therefore more sandboxy than EQ.

Eve may have more (I disagree but thats another arguement), but to say it has not is rediculous.

It's a scale with second life on one end and something else on the super mario bros on the other, WoW is somewhere in the middle.

Venge

Who says WoW doesn't have any Sandboxy elements? Maybe one or two people, but I doubt most feel that way. Every game has some sandbox elements, that's true. But it doesn't make them a "Sandbox Game". It doesn't change that boring play style of being directed by quests through a zoned game world of stagnant repetition.

Originally posted by Amaranthar

Frankly, that's about as dumb an argument as anyone can make. The old "take it so far it falls off the cliff" argument.

And it puts you squarely in the same category as Axehilt. You either don't understand at all (despite the fact that it's been explained so many, many times) or you are trying to undermine it.

I'm sorry.  Sandbox is defined as 'precisely this much freedom, but no more, and no less'?

People keep saying 'Sandbox is about freedom'.  Apparently it's about tightly limited freedom, since you believe that once I mention more freedom than the point at which you've drawn the line, I've driven it off a cliff?  So a sandbox MMORPG is apparently basically like a sandbox in a preschool run by ex-prison guards.

I apparently missed the explanation.  Can you explain exactly how much freedom it takes to unsandbox something, and how much lack of freedom it takes to do the same?  Can you explain how nostalgia and personal preference affects the measurement, so I can get a better grasp on how this is supposed to work?

Quests have nothing to do with sandbox.  In MMO you can choose to do them or not, which means there is a choice.

And no one here said WoW was a sandbox.

You agree with me when I say that WoW does have sandbox elements but you didn't agree with Axehilt when he said:

Saying WOW has few, if any, sandbox elements exhibits a lack of understanding of the core of what sandbox is.

Sandbox is player freedom.  When you choose between 4 starting zones and 2-3 zones at any given level to quest in, that's player freedom.  When you choose to run dungeons or craft or PVP or socialize, that's player freedom.  When you choose to switch specs, that's player freedom.

Overall WOW doesn't offer a completely blank slate for players to do anything they want, and it's certainly a themepark MMORPG.  But to say it offers few sandbox elements is a gross oversimplification.  Every MMORPG out there involves both linear and nonlinear elements.  It's just an overall tilt that determines whether players label it themepark or sandbox.

What he is saying here, and what you are and I are saying are the same things.  WoW has some sandbox elements to it, however it does not offer a complete sandbox game.

He and you agree that all games have some sandbox elements but some doesnt' make it a sandbox.  As he said it's just the overall tilt, or the number of sandbox elements, that determine what we label it.

Venge

Originally posted by MMO.Maverick

I'm sorry, I know some people in this thread love/like WoW very much and that they're trying to make a point implying that a number of MMORPG gamers don't really know what they want in their MMO games, which is a valid discussion.

 

But saying that WoW is a sandbox game is simply hilarious, especially since it was WoW that introduced the whole concept and design philosophy of 'themepark MMORPG': World of Warcraft by its very design defined the very concept of 'themepark MMO' as the 1st MMO that was recognised as such.

Absolutely nobody has made the argument that WoW is a sandbox game.

The original comment was that WoW is definitely a themepark MMORPG, but it still has some sandbox elements... and more than some people will admit to.

Personally, I find the whole sandbox argument hilarious, because people apply so many different definitions to it, it's almost completely useless as a term here in mmorpg.com (Despite claims that there's a unified front and answer and that us people who don't 'get' sandboxes should have been paying more attention)

Some people insist it needs FFA PvP, some people insist there can't be any quests.  Some people say that player housing is an integral part of the sandpark experience.  I totally understand why that one thread was started to try and create an agreed upon gaming lexicon.  Making statements like 'Sandbox is about freedom' leaves the definition glaringly open to all sorts of abuse (As I love cheerily demonstrating with the Second Life example)

This is what happens when an important term has no agreed upon definition. Everybody goes ahead and twists things to their own desire. Suddenly now, WoW is a sandbox...POOF! Some even claim it could be more "sandboxy" than EVE...GASP!

In RL humans are true masters of this phenomenon. If science or any form of logic cannot explain something, there will always be those that take the initiative and just make something up. The scary part is, other people seem to end up following.