That's one of the things I could live without. Grind is essential to MMO's survival, but that kind of grind can be a huge, huge turn off.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Sorry ill take my dungeons that are longer then 2 hours it will stop the casual players from over running the genre . IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT THEN DONT DO IT I am sick and tired of this attitude like you are owed something here. Here is a expmple of what bothers me more then anything oh this dingeon is to hard why is it fair the hardcore gamers can clear it but we cant it shouldnt be this way it should be so we can all clear it . Want some more food you big babys if the dingeon is to hard or to long simple dont do it you are not obligated to have the same gear as the hardcore guilds or players because you dont work for it they do .

This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .

Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24  and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.

Originally posted by Kazlin

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Sorry ill take my dungeons that are longer then 2 hours it will stop the casual players from over running the genre . IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT THEN DONT DO IT I am sick and tired of this attitude like you are owed something here. Here is a expmple of what bothers me more then anything oh this dingeon is to hard why is it fair the hardcore gamers can clear it but we cant it shouldnt be this way it should be so we can all clear it . Want some more food you big babys if the dingeon is to hard or to long simple dont do it you are not obligated to have the same gear as the hardcore guilds or players because you dont work for it they do .

This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .

Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24  and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.

Right idea, not sure why the insluting tone was needed.  It makes a game cool if there is a dungeon that is too tough for you to handle. It also gives you something to shoot for.  Making it so that every player can do every bit of content may appeal to the casual players, but the guys who play 30 hours a week don't get a feeling of accomplishment.

FFXI Super-bosses anyone?

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Originally posted by grimfall

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Originally posted by Kazlin

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Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.
I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.
Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

---

Sorry ill take my dungeons that are longer then 2 hours it will stop the casual players from over running the genre . IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT THEN DONT DO IT I am sick and tired of this attitude like you are owed something here. Here is a expmple of what bothers me more then anything oh this dingeon is to hard why is it fair the hardcore gamers can clear it but we cant it shouldnt be this way it should be so we can all clear it . Want some more food you big babys if the dingeon is to hard or to long simple dont do it you are not obligated to have the same gear as the hardcore guilds or players because you dont work for it they do .
This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .
Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24  and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.

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Right idea, not sure why the insluting tone was needed.  It makes a game cool if there is a dungeon that is too tough for you to handle. It also gives you something to shoot for.  Making it so that every player can do every bit of content may appeal to the casual players, but the guys who play 30 hours a week don't get a feeling of accomplishment.

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Originally posted by Ozivois

I miss the MMOs with the classic dungeon crawls.  None of the mobs are soloable, the mobs repop within a few minutes after you kill them, and there is a long trip to get to the back of the dungeon.  The party had to make sure it never wiped or lost its casters because there were very few ways to get back to the party if you got killed, respawned and had to find your way back to your party.

 

If you try to get back to your party it was practically impossible.

 

AoC had some areas like this such as Onyx, but not nearly enough content like this throughout the levels.

Which MMOs are these where dungeon content could not be soloed? My chanter, bard, necro, druid, etc say nearly all of  EQ was reasonablly soloable (until PoP where things really changed up) ;p

Was it UO? Na, everything was soloable.

What is Meridian? Was it some random MUD? Or was it just FFXI and its ladybugs of doom?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ozivois

I miss the MMOs with the classic dungeon crawls.  None of the mobs are soloable, the mobs repop within a few minutes after you kill them, and there is a long trip to get to the back of the dungeon.  The party had to make sure it never wiped or lost its casters because there were very few ways to get back to the party if you got killed, respawned and had to find your way back to your party.

 

If you try to get back to your party it was practically impossible.

 

AoC had some areas like this such as Onyx, but not nearly enough content like this throughout the levels.

 

Not interested. Make very frusting gameplay.

i don't want to commit whole nite to a dungoen .. 1-2 hours is the right length. And this business about not be able to get back to the group means a lot of time wasted.

If you dont know it yes you prolly think this way, but a challenge is just much more fun and adventures then a safe dungeon with no risk.

Im sure becouse of players like you we soon have dungeon where you can have every meter a chest with goodies or mobs that stand still do nothing and you kill and you get all shiny things you desire and after 20min fully equipped with godlike gear you always wanted:P

Time waste is something all you new players keep saying this in mean while you all play many hours a day doing same shit over and over again lol.

Maybe a gameworld with dungeon crawlers and dungeons for lazy no risk dungeons for all who want there stuff handed easy on silver plate should give both groups satisfaction they want hehe.

I guess I'm in the minority.

I spent tonight dungeon grinding with a group in Vanguard (we started with a quest and didn't leave when we finished) that laster for a good 3+ hours, I was having a blast and didn't want to leave but we lost a couple of members who wanted to get some sleep.

Originally posted by Kazlin

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Sorry ill take my dungeons that are longer then 2 hours it will stop the casual players from over running the genre . IF YOU DONT HAVE THE TIME TO DO IT THEN DONT DO IT I am sick and tired of this attitude like you are owed something here. Here is a expmple of what bothers me more then anything oh this dingeon is to hard why is it fair the hardcore gamers can clear it but we cant it shouldnt be this way it should be so we can all clear it . Want some more food you big babys if the dingeon is to hard or to long simple dont do it you are not obligated to have the same gear as the hardcore guilds or players because you dont work for it they do .

This is where the Casual gamers are killing the Genre if you want your easy and less time cosuming things stay and play WoW or wait for a new game that has the same to cater for you guys its about time some developer stops listening to what the customer says and develope there games the way they inteded to .

Its about time a Developer brings Back the EQ style of raids and dungeons where you had to actually rely on each other to finish things where it took alot of players dosnt have to be 140 ppl like it use to be but more then 24  and god dam make it long so it takes 3-4 hours to clear the dungeon instead of 30 mins.

As long as you're fine with the niche, indie budgets to go with the niche, indie games you seem to want, that's fine.  Those types of games can and do get made. 

I too miss challenging dungeon crawls, but it sounds to me as if a great deal of what you are saying is difficulty, I would say is tedium. Things should be very hard, and you should have to move slowly, for fear of hidden monsters, traps, puzzles, and the like, but fast respawns, no instancing, and the very harsh punishment of failure are all things I do not like.

Originally posted by Evasia

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Ozivois

I miss the MMOs with the classic dungeon crawls.  None of the mobs are soloable, the mobs repop within a few minutes after you kill them, and there is a long trip to get to the back of the dungeon.  The party had to make sure it never wiped or lost its casters because there were very few ways to get back to the party if you got killed, respawned and had to find your way back to your party.

 

If you try to get back to your party it was practically impossible.

 

AoC had some areas like this such as Onyx, but not nearly enough content like this throughout the levels.

 

Not interested. Make very frusting gameplay.

i don't want to commit whole nite to a dungoen .. 1-2 hours is the right length. And this business about not be able to get back to the group means a lot of time wasted.

If you dont know it yes you prolly think this way, but a challenge is just much more fun and adventures then a safe dungeon with no risk.

Im sure becouse of players like you we soon have dungeon where you can have every meter a chest with goodies or mobs that stand still do nothing and you kill and you get all shiny things you desire and after 20min fully equipped with godlike gear you always wanted:P

Time waste is something all you new players keep saying this in mean while you all play many hours a day doing same shit over and over again lol.

Maybe a gameworld with dungeon crawlers and dungeons for lazy no risk dungeons for all who want there stuff handed easy on silver plate should give both groups satisfaction they want hehe.

You are totally illogical. What has time to do with the level of difficulty? The lich king hard mode is super challenging but the fight itself won't last longer than 15 min.

If you take away all the trash and bosses leading up to it, it is still challenging.

It is total BS that the length of the dungeon has anything to do with whether it is easy or not.

i wouldnt mind having dungeon crawling to come back, unfortunately my first dungeon crawl game was diablo so im constantly trying to find a game that has the athmosphere than in the first installment of diablo ... sounds, music, the overall feel to the game was just so amazing..

If every fight in such a dungeon is sort of a big picture versatile challenge then i agree it would be a nice experience.
But it has to fit into a 1,5 hour session (3 x 0.5 hours) for example.

The most boring experience would be a dungeon filled with trash mobs like some in the tier 1+2 raids of aoc (have stopped playing b4 tier 3 release so i have no clue about them).
You get no feeling of accomplishment but a feeling of slowing down for no reason.

The only proper dungeons found in MMOG's are those found in DDO. Most other game's dungeons have a shopping mall atmosphere with choreographed gimick bosses that have more in common with hopscotch than they do a dungeon.

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Originally posted by midmagic

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Originally posted by Ozivois
I miss the MMOs with the classic dungeon crawls.  None of the mobs are soloable, the mobs repop within a few minutes after you kill them, and there is a long trip to get to the back of the dungeon.  The party had to make sure it never wiped or lost its casters because there were very few ways to get back to the party if you got killed, respawned and had to find your way back to your party.
 
If you try to get back to your party it was practically impossible.
 
AoC had some areas like this such as Onyx, but not nearly enough content like this throughout the levels.

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Which MMOs are these where dungeon content could not be soloed? My chanter, bard, necro, druid, etc say nearly all of  EQ was reasonablly soloable (until PoP where things really changed up) ;p
Was it UO? Na, everything was soloable.
What is Meridian? Was it some random MUD? Or was it just FFXI and its ladybugs of doom?

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Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Some days i only have 10-min to play, so better do 10-min wings, or better 10-min dungeons... or better yet each 5-min just pop a button on the screen with the word "LOOT" ( so people with low attention span wont miss it ) and each click it will give some epic lewt kewl loot.

The problem i see here is that people only know the instanced dungeons, the good part of non instanced dungeons is that you can do it solo or in a group and you can invest 10 min or 6 h. because you are getting a blast doing it while interacting with other people, your are not doing it just for the loot like all the instances we have, that loot is just the icing on the cake.

The gener is evolving to a casual single player grind game ( CSPGG™ ), it will have a ton of more people playing it of course but it will lose his soul, maybe already lost it.

Originally posted by judex99

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Some days i only have 10-min to play, so better do 10-min wings, or better 10-min dungeons... or better yet each 5-min just pop a button on the screen with the word "LOOT" ( so people with low attention span wont miss it ) and each click it will give some epic lewt kewl loot.

The problem i see here is that people only know the instanced dungeons, the good part of non instanced dungeons is that you can do it solo or in a group and you can invest 10 min or 6 h. because you are getting a blast doing it while interacting with other people, your are not doing it just for the loot like all the instances we have, that loot is just the icing on the cake.

The gener is evolving to a casual single player grind game ( CSPGG™ ), it will have a ton of more people playing it of course but it will lose his soul, maybe already lost it.

Would you be opposed to having options? May as well have instanced or non-instanced dungeons, solo dungeons, short ones, long ones. As long as the rewards are appropriate for the duration and challenge then what difference does it make?

Or are you one of the many who is hung up on the past when it was possible to force a playstyle on people that wouldn't choose that playstyle? There is enough competition in the genre now that if someone wanted short solo instances then they will play a game that provides them. If a game only offered one type of dungeon then it will only attract the players that want that one type of dungeon.

Originally posted by Aganazer

Originally posted by judex99

Originally posted by Axehilt

Personally I think even 1-2 hours is too long.  Offer challenging 30-min wings to a dungeon.  If I have time, I can chain each wing together into a 2-hour experience and earn an extra piece of bonus loot or two, but otherwise I can reliably play for exactly as long as I have time for.

I think it's pretty crazy that Blizz went back to ~1.5 hour heroics, personally.  Their most popular dungeon of all time (Scarlet Monastery) was popular largely due to the bite-sized session sizes.  All they needed to do was give a light "dungeon chain" bonus for those who have time to do everything at once and it's the perfect setup.

Longer than 2 hours is just nuts and relegates a game to an ultra-niche audience.

Some days i only have 10-min to play, so better do 10-min wings, or better 10-min dungeons... or better yet each 5-min just pop a button on the screen with the word "LOOT" ( so people with low attention span wont miss it ) and each click it will give some epic lewt kewl loot.

The problem i see here is that people only know the instanced dungeons, the good part of non instanced dungeons is that you can do it solo or in a group and you can invest 10 min or 6 h. because you are getting a blast doing it while interacting with other people, your are not doing it just for the loot like all the instances we have, that loot is just the icing on the cake.

The gener is evolving to a casual single player grind game ( CSPGG™ ), it will have a ton of more people playing it of course but it will lose his soul, maybe already lost it.

Would you be opposed to having options? May as well have instanced or non-instanced dungeons, solo dungeons, short ones, long ones. As long as the rewards are appropriate for the duration and challenge then what difference does it make?

Or are you one of the many who is hung up on the past when it was possible to force a playstyle on people that wouldn't choose that playstyle? There is enough competition in the genre now that if someone wanted short solo instances then they will play a game that provides them. If a game only offered one type of dungeon then it will only attract the players that want that one type of dungeon.

You can have variety without instances. Sure, if you want instances, then let there be games with instances designed and tailored to you needs. But for those of us who want worlds without Single Player game instances, there certainly can be worlds with a wide variety of dungeons that you can hop into and out of for short or long periods, and still have fun.

The thing is, these are two different types of games, and there are players who want one or the other, and players who'd accept either. There's plenty to go around. But I'm really tired of hearing that only the instanced games for Single Player gamers have validity in MMORPGs.

What's funny is that it's the Single Player mode MMOer who accuses us "Worldly/Sandbox" types of hanging onto the past. It's actually the Single Player Game MMO player who wants to hang onto a past from before MMORPGs came out, and don't want to advance to the social arena of true Massive Multiplayer, because you don't want to deal with other people. That's not to say that such games shouldn't do something about griefers of all sorts. They should, and it can be done, up to a point that should be acceptable considering you're in a social sphere with lots of other players. And that social sphere brings new, social game play (real politics, not some card game called a "Political System") that many of us expect to see in a Massive Multiplayer world.

>>> It is total BS that the length of the dungeon has anything to do with whether it is easy or not.

Ahem, sorry, but your last statement is not correct.

As long as the encounters before the end figth offer any challenge (as in chance of failure) it is of course more challenging to defeat that deep dungeon compared to a dungeon that only got the end figth.

Of course if you make all encounters before the end fight trivial (known as trash mobs) you don't increase the challenge but only the time needed.

Anyway, there is a correltaion between the length (number of encounters) in a dungeon and it's challenge depending on the number of encounters that provide a chance of failure.

You can proove this mathematically but I leave that to someone other. ;)

edit: added quote, somehow the forum ate it.