Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

I don't really consider this to be about "casual" vs "hardcore" as that is more of a personal choice and limitation. If the game is fun to play and you enjoy doing it, who cares how long getting to a level cap takes? I *enjoyed* playing lower levelled characters in EQ and often did so wih friends even after we all had much higher level ones.  I also consider myself definitely more on the "casual" side these days.

I also don't think you can de-couple the speed of levelling from the problem and claim is just devs making games only for the endgame. One logically follows from the other; how much dev time should be spent on any given range of lower level areas and activities if even the "average casual" player is only going to spend a weekend in them?

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

I don't know what your definition for 'casual' is, but I've talked with my friends kids who are  8 and 11 and even though they love WoW they're still amused how easy and hand-holding it is. Oh, and they don't speak english.

Now, next question is: How dumb must an adult be to enjoy this game when practically illiterate children think it's awful easy?

I can appreciate if game developers design games that don't require you to be online 24/7, but if playing games become as mind numbing and passive as watching television (or playing solitaire that can always be beated) and you seem to enjoy it, it's time to go see a doctor and have your head checked. Computer games are not, and have never been rocket science.

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

I don't know what your definition for 'casual' is, but I've talked with my friends kids who are  8 and 11 and even though they love WoW they're still amused how easy and hand-holding it is. Oh, and they don't speak english.

Now, next question is: How dumb must an adult be to enjoy this game when practically illiterate children think it's awful easy?

I can appreciate if game developers design games that don't require you to be online 24/7, but if playing games become as mind numbing and passive as watching television (or playing solitaire that can always be beated) and you seem to enjoy it, it's time to go see a doctor and have your head checked. Computer games are not, and have never been rocket science.

Have you ever heard of a straw man?

I don't remember mentioning WoW or say that I wanted "dumb" games that illiterate children could play.

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

I don't know what your definition for 'casual' is, but I've talked with my friends kids who are  8 and 11 and even though they love WoW they're still amused how easy and hand-holding it is. Oh, and they don't speak english.

Now, next question is: How dumb must an adult be to enjoy this game when practically illiterate children think it's awful easy?

I can appreciate if game developers design games that don't require you to be online 24/7, but if playing games become as mind numbing and passive as watching television (or playing solitaire that can always be beated) and you seem to enjoy it, it's time to go see a doctor and have your head checked. Computer games are not, and have never been rocket science.

Have you ever heard of a straw man?

I don't remember mentioning WoW or say that I wanted "dumb" games that illiterate children could play.

After the first paragraph I spoke more generally, not really to you. I apologies that.

But I can't help not to mention WoW and Rift when someone talks 'games for casuals'. And in fact, I believe the arrogant ones are game developers who think casual equals stupidity.

I agree catering to casuals = $$$ but catering to dumb people is pure arrogance.

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

Maybe that can sound arrogant but its true.

Im a casual player if we are talking about time avalaible to spend in a game, less than 10 hours a week, but i want a depth game, are there more people like me? im sure of it, but we are not 10mill. thats for sure.

Take the next MMO to be released as example, Rift is just that, a game to average Joe, just a boredom of quest hubs till max level, the game is locked in easy mode no matter if you like it or not and thats what the averge Joe is looking for, which is ok.

The main problem as i see is that developers now  are trying to make games, when the developers of the firsts MMO's were trying to make worlds, you can see very clear this comparing EQ to EQ2 or just seeing the devolution that EQ had from Velius to now.

I think  the OP justs wants an MMO that feels like a world and not like a game. Less hand holding, more adventure.

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

I don't know what your definition for 'casual' is, but I've talked with my friends kids who are  8 and 11 and even though they love WoW they're still amused how easy and hand-holding it is. Oh, and they don't speak english.

Now, next question is: How dumb must an adult be to enjoy this game when practically illiterate children think it's awful easy?

I can appreciate if game developers design games that don't require you to be online 24/7, but if playing games become as mind numbing and passive as watching television (or playing solitaire that can always be beated) and you seem to enjoy it, it's time to go see a doctor and have your head checked. Computer games are not, and have never been rocket science.

Have you ever heard of a straw man?

I don't remember mentioning WoW or say that I wanted "dumb" games that illiterate children could play.

After the first paragraph I spoke more generally, not really to you. I apologies that.

But I can't help not to mention WoW and Rift when someone talks 'games for casuals'. And in fact, I believe the arrogant ones are game developers who think casual equals stupidity.

I agree catering to casuals = $$$ but catering to dumb people is pure arrogance.

Agreed. Catering to dumb people is the cornerstone of most expensive business adventures. Look at the music business and Justin Bieber. :(

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

It certianly seems that way in many aspects, which is why I find myself lately playing old as hell games. Theirs a few things modern mmo's have brought to the table that I enjoy, like AA's, collection tasks, housing, and such, mostly just "fluffy" features, but for the most part core gameplay has been dumbed down.

 

Dungeons and zones are becoming extremely linear "tunnels" in recent games, along with being much smaller in size

Aggro systems are being dumbed down to massively reduce linking, KoS triggers, and aggro range.

NPC factions are disappearing, the few games that have some kind of faction system is soley to make you grind for rep. to get some kind of reward, like in Lotro.

Quests have no real "interactivity" to them beyond completining them (think EQ replying to NPC texts)

Out of combat skills are almost nonexistant and not necessary (bind wound, lock picking, trap disabling , etc..) Traps and locked doors/chests are also very rare to find in any recent game.

Environmental hazards are nonexistant (again an EQ reference, lot's of invisible pitfalls, zones like The Grey that require a breathing spell.

Combat roles/classes like CC, pullers are hardly necessary, and are slowly going out of demand, which has a bit to do with aggro being dumbed down along with mobs being more predictable/easier.

the list goes on and on. I can't help but think dev's focus more on developing ways to reward players using the above mentioned things I like, such as housing, mounts, quest rewards, etc,  rather than placing emphasis and focus on content features.  

Im looking for a MMO with that mechanics also, the question is... are out there enough people like you and me to make a MMO like that profitable? We wont know till a dev. have the balls to do it.

Originally posted by judex99

 

Im looking for a MMO with that mechanics also, the question is... are out there enough people like you and me to make a MMO like that profitable? We wont know till a dev. have the balls to do it.

We do know since there are many devs that made a game that are 'hardcore'. MO/EVE/DarkFall/Ryzom.

I really don't get the attack on the casual/dumb gamers though.

I like football (or soccer in US language) and don't care much about basketball.

Would anyone take me seriously if I said 'I hate basketball and it is destroying the sports industry!'? Really?

Originally posted by ericbelser

I realize this isn't exactly a unique or entirely new line of thought but it really struck me today.  In terms of the things I really want from an MMORPG, the entire genre has been going backwards and this is not a recent change. I realized that with only a single exception, I have played every new MMO for a shorter period of time than whatever MMO I was playing previously. Now some of that is due to simple "burn out", I won't argue that...but there is more to it than that.

In EQ, my first MMO, I only ever had one character at the level cap and that wasn't a big deal to me. I enjoyed *playing* the game, it wasn't some kind of race. I had multiple alts on different servers at different levels that I would go and play just because hanging out at level XX doing things with friends at that level was fun. Yes, the game was unpolished in many ways and there are lots of elements to newer games that I would have liked...but that basic "pacing" and gameplay was enjoyable.

In every MMO since then, I have had multiple characters at the level cap and with the notable exception of LotRO basically the entire game centered around being at that level cap. Everything below the level cap was just something you got through as fast as possible on the way to the "endgame". That race to the end has gotten faster and faster with every generation of game and everything else has become meaningless.  In a recent beta, I was 10th level in less than 2 hours and 20th by the end of my second session of  gaming...not once in that time did I bother to speak to another player, look to buy any gear or even bother to optimise my gear; there was just no point. I didn't need any one else to adventure, there was no point in buying gear that would be outlevelled in a matter of minutes and why bother to even try and make longer term friends when even an hours difference in play time would see them beyond my point in every quest arc?

Now as I said, none of this is exactly new...and I grasp that clearly many are happy with the frenzied hamster race to level caps, but why do the companies involved not see that it just speeds up burnout? Or do they not care, since if they pay off dev costs with the opening box sales, who cares about game longevity or player retention? Is everyone just chasing the lure of a WoW-esque payday?

Well said. I fear it is the itemization of the genre that did this, after some time all players wanted was epic gear for max level characters and after that it got more and more about getting those Tier X raid gear, the rest of the game became a tutorial.

I can't really see the point of having levels at all anymore, they could as well cancel both them and XP, it would only affect your character for the first week or so anyways.

Originally posted by Loke666

 

Well said. I fear it is the itemization of the genre that did this, after some time all players wanted was epic gear for max level characters and after that it got more and more about getting those Tier X raid gear, the rest of the game became a tutorial.

I can't really see the point of having levels at all anymore, they could as well cancel both them and XP, it would only affect your character for the first week or so anyways.

I don't really see the level system as an issue.

Making a single value represent the power of the character has been done since D&D (or before?) and almost every RPG since. It is something all players know about and understand; so from a game design perspective it is a very nice mechanic to use.

It is awesome if you are trying to slowly introduce new abilities/spells to your playerbase as well.

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

That is not arrogant, that is my opinion about how society is like. The average person is simply not particularly bright and often than not want things to be easy and handed to him/her.

Originally posted by Eladi

A good game has no start or end, it has only content.

Bingo.

The "real game" doesn't "start at endgame", contrary to popular claim. Perhaps all the individual cares about is the endgame. But that's personal preference.  Nothing more. It's not a mandate of "how MMOs must be designed".

The real game starts at level 1, from the moment your new character steps foot in the game world, and encompasses everything the game offers. Disinterest in a given aspect of the game doesn't change that. Everything in a MMORPG is part of that game's experience.

Someone choosing to race through the first 79 levels of a game, deeming level 80 the only one that "matters" makes it no less so.

Originally posted by judex99

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

Maybe that can sound arrogant but its true.

Im a casual player if we are talking about time avalaible to spend in a game, less than 10 hours a week, but i want a depth game, are there more people like me? im sure of it, but we are not 10mill. thats for sure.

Take the next MMO to be released as example, Rift is just that, a game to average Joe, just a boredom of quest hubs till max level, the game is locked in easy mode no matter if you like it or not and thats what the averge Joe is looking for, which is ok.

The main problem as i see is that developers now  are trying to make games, when the developers of the firsts MMO's were trying to make worlds, you can see very clear this comparing EQ to EQ2 or just seeing the devolution that EQ had from Velius to now.

MMORPG development used to be an nische area of gaming with visionaries that tried to create virtual worlds. Now it is all about big money and catering to the lowest denominator. The virtual world concept is all but gone.

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

And it's arrogant - and an incredibly short-sighted and ignorant stereotype as well - to label anyone who wants something with a bit more depth than the typical MMO these days offers as being "hardcore players with no lives". None of that stopped you from saying it now, did it? So, how shall we label you?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people with families, full-time jobs and very active lives who still prefer something that doesn't coddle and hold their hand. They're also not in a hurry to get to end-game and don't "need" to level quickly to enjoy themselves. But that's the problem with arguments like yours. It assumes that everyone playing these games has the same expectations, sets the same goals, has the same requirements and plays at the same pace as you do. They don't.

And, in fact, Yamota's remark is completely accurate and demonstrably true. It applies to anything that goes mass-market. Not only MMOs and, certainly, not only games. If you want something enjoyed by more people, you have to make it appeal to more people, right? And "more people" includes those who are perfectly content to turn off their brains and enjoy the ride. Thus the statement "appealing to the lowest common denominator" is perfectly appropriate. Just look at Network TV. It's flooded with programming intended to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Also... Because you don't like the idea of something doesn't make it "arrogant" for someone to say it.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

That sounds arrogant to say the least. Just because a few hardcore players with no lives like something does not make it good taste.

If you don't cater to casual players there is no money.

And it's arrogant - and an incredibly short-sighted and ignorant stereotype as well - to label anyone who wants something with a bit more depth than the typical MMO these days offers as being "hardcore players with no lives". None of that stopped you from saying it now, did it? So, how shall we label you?

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people with families, full-time jobs and very active lives who still prefer something that doesn't coddle and hold their hand. They're also not in a hurry to get to end-game and don't "need" to level quickly to enjoy themselves. But that's the problem with arguments like yours. It assumes that everyone playing these games has the same expectations, sets the same goals, has the same requirements and plays at the same pace as you do. They don't.

And, in fact, Yamota's remark is completely accurate and demonstrably true. It applies to anything that goes mass-market. Not only MMOs and, certainly, not only games. If you want something enjoyed by more people, you have to make it appeal to more people, right? And "more people" includes those who are perfectly content to turn off their brains and enjoy the ride. Thus the statement "appealing to the lowest common denominator" is perfectly appropriate. Just look at Network TV. It's flooded with programming intended to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Also... Because you don't like the idea of something doesn't make it "arrogant" for someone to say it.

Thank you. I was not intending to be arrogant but was just telling it how I see it. And as you said, not just for MMOs, but for any media that goes mass market.

I mean, why do people think we have fast food and junk tv shows, is it because they are high quality? Hell no, it is because it caters to people who dont want to use their brains and just sit back and relax without putting any effort in it. Not saying it is good or bad, just saying thats how I see it.

Originally posted by Yamota

Everything that goes mass market loses taste, sophistication and depth. That is because the average Joe does not know how to appreciate those qualitites.

This.

Originally posted by Seival

Originally posted by Axehilt

If the genre's going backwards, why are more players than ever playing?  Nobody's forcing them to, so they must like it.

There are many bad things in real life that make our civilization to go backwards: tobacco, alcohol, fast-food, etc. But still these things are very popular and claimed... Not becouse they are doing any good to people, but becouse they are things to which it is easy to addict (and difficult to wean).

 

...And about race to level cap: the problem is not in speed of leveling. The problem is that some popular developers produce content only for level cap. Entire game before level cap is empty and boring, and looks like too long tutorial.

When you start to play such a game it forces you to follow level cup as it was "carrot on the stick" for you. Average player does not notice lack of content for low levels becose he is blinded by the goal: "reach the level cap as fast as possible becouse it's where the real game begins".

Only lazy and uncreative developers make leveling processes that frightens players off. And this is one of the main reasons why most players who tried WoW (using trial version or payed for one month just to try) do not stay in game and leave before they reach level cap.

But the reason games have gone the direction they have has been for very logical reasons (logical even from the standpoint of the less casual gamers.)

I'm a little confused why you feel it's okay for leveling to be fast (to act as an efficient tutorial for players) and yet you think it's somehow a mistake to create all of the content for the place where all players will quickly be (endgame).  Seems like if you understand that quick leveling functions as an efficient tutorial you would also understand that there's not a huge reason to put tons of development effort into that section of content.

As for your last paragraph, it seems to conveniently ignore reality.  Do most players who try WOW quit?  Yes, absolutely.  If you've done any serious amount of study in games you know that's a trait of every game.  And I assure you the games with grindy leveling systems do considerably worse.