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I love games, playing them and i do focus on becoming a game designer but i start to think thats just ethically wrong.

Games are made for money and how companies sell them? by making them "fun"(and of course correct marketing to create an impression to the masses that they will like so they are gonna buy it). But what is fun exactly?

For the majorities and the bigger percent of the market its simply "winning"...

People do feel better(and feel better about themselves) by "winning" or believing they "achieved" something or they simply have the power to choose or do something that they cannot in real life.Some games even behind the scenes lower the game difficulty so they wont disappoint you...

Games are simply becoming psychology buffs and not games that can sometimes also have some challenges that can count as achievements that require skill to be earned.

I dont say there arent people who like

Story

design

competition(it requires actual skill)

Social and be together with friends

But these are just a minority compared to most people who just "pay" games and never really come online to the internet

Whats the difference between games and drugs for the masses?

Both do some physical and sometimes mental damage

Both spend time Both require MONEY

Both waste some time

Both make you feel better even though you might not deserve it or have done nothing to earn it. You just pay money for it... Its just like tricking kids with candy...

Do you think its correct to fool people to give their money just to give them a think that makes them feel they suck less??even though they still suck a lot and "winning" the game doesnt make you suck less

Personally i love games sometimes for story like mass effect series, i just love how bioware works and even though some choices might not impact the game a lot i want to choose them cause i want to see what funny and smart dialogue bioware created

I also play to win and feel better but i only get that satisfaction when i win a really close match in pvp or 1v1 where both sides are equal and there is no pre-fight advantage(Gear,ganking). Thats what i call good game(also watching ppl say GG after every yiffing fight is annoying cause 99% of those fhts are definitely NOT GG)

*and i count that as something good and an achievement because if you say its just a game, i dont see whats the difference between real life sports? Both require skill, because it does not require a lot of physical skill it doesnt mean its not skill

I have to admit that i also had some fun in unbalanced situation like in l2 fighting in big groups or just fighting or ganging others but that was nothing to be proud about or satisfying enough.

An example

A kid is raised in a huge rich house and he gets everything he wants and everyone tells him he is right in every of his choices. This kid has huge self confidence and believes he never does any mistakes and anyone who will say different is simply wrong. He lives in his own fake world believing that his is god while he is nothing more than another typical human(this is an overexxagerated example)

Please focus on that: People are buying games, to feel better by winning or achieving stuff that require no skill and everyone can do it or believe they have more power than the real world. That is fake, you believe you did something and feel better about yourself, that you are actually good. But thats just a ruse to make you feel better. Its just like a fake world

Off-topic: Is it stupidity that makes people pay 60$ for games like black ops that are just reskins with a few new addons and a huge price of 60 dollars tog just for these "addons"......

*Editing, for some reason i created the wall of text before thread creator loads and it ate all the paragraphs...

Holy wall of text x.x

Thank you for putting in paragraphs!

you can replace the word "gaming" with any other form of entertainment including sex or eating candy/sugar and the question remains.....

then the question becomes is it ethical to seek/provide entertainment for humans...

then that become a religion question since you will be talking about the 7 sins such as pride, envy, gluttony etc...

or you can just face the fact that people are always going to be seeking happyness and entertainment is part of that search.

dont think too hard, your brain might explode:D

People seem to forget that gaming is a luxury, and not a given fact.

You need money in order to buy stuff. And you need time. If you don't have time, don't play games. We all know they're time consuming. If you don't want to 'waste' your time, then sure as hell don't play MMO's or even be on these forums trolling about.

I work in a cellphone store and I see this every day. People who complain about their bills all the time. And when you say that a cellphone is a luxury product, they don't understand. You don't NEED a cellphone. 

Same as gaming. You don't NEED gaming, it's for fun. Entertainment is expensive. If you're not willing to cough up the dough, then go on and read a book.

You as a gamedesigner should know this. It's NOT a welfare organization. It's a company. Companies need to make money. And whether you work in a shoestore or as a dentist or as a game designer, they all need to make money, and they do not shy of it. 

You have the noble job of bringing a game to the people that can make them think or make them believe they're in a different world. Do not underestimate that power. It your responsibility to make people happy if they buy your game. That's the biggest difference between good game designers, and bad ones. If you made a good game, hell, it's not a shame to ask money for it. And I think I'm not the only one.

Originally posted by Trustedx

People seem to forget that gaming is a luxury, and not a given fact.

You need money in order to buy stuff. And you need time. If you don't have time, don't play games. We all know they're time consuming. If you don't want to 'waste' your time, then sure as hell don't play MMO's or even be on these forums trolling about.

I work in a cellphone store and I see this every day. People who complain about their bills all the time. And when you say that a cellphone is a luxury product, they don't understand. You don't NEED a cellphone. 

Same as gaming. You don't NEED gaming, it's for fun. Entertainment is expensive. If you're not willing to cough up the dough, then go on and read a book.

 

You as a gamedesigner should know this. It's NOT a welfare organization. It's a company. Companies need to make money. And whether you work in a shoestore or as a dentist or as a game designer, they all need to make money, and they do not shy of it. 

You have the noble job of bringing a game to the people that can make them think or make them believe they're in a different world. Do not underestimate that power. It your responsibility to make people happy if they buy your game. That's the biggest difference between good game designers, and bad ones. If you made a good game, hell, it's not a shame to ask money for it. And I think I'm not the only one.

 

Hmm... So if someone started a gaming company that was a charitable organization...?

Most things would be wrong if you think it like that.

Movies, TV shows, boardgames, soccer, Hockey, drinking Guiness, reading books, going to church .... And almost everything else as well.

It would leave sex and eating, and possibly a few more things.

And frankly: Life is short and the meaning of life is having a good time without bringing other people down.

If you have that you are winning. If telly or gaming makes you happy you should do that, just don't overdo itbecause few people are really happy if they spend all their awake time playing. 

Besides, all things are bad for you if you overdo them.

You can also look at it from the other point of view and say "What does gaming prevent people from doing?". I spend my free time (i.e. enjoyment time) playing games. I am not at a bar drinking or doing drugs or other worse, maladaptive behaviors. You can also say that by playing these games and I am keeping people employed - the devs, the Internet people, etc...

Of course you can argue the other sides that I should be out doing "good" things for soceity and gaming leads to health problems such as the lack of movement and eye strain (of course all "desk" jobs do the same).

My point is you can argue the ethics of something over and over. Tgere are many ethical viewpoints and no matter what we do, we will never come to a consenus on one.

It all depends on the ethical theory you subscribe too outside of the basic tenets that all ethics subscribe too.

The best way I have heard ethics explained is this:

Imagine you die and pass on to the afterlife. Your whole life is an open book and everyone you have ever met is made aware of everything you have ever done. If you are trying to decide what you should imagine if you would want what you do made public.

That or don't rve do anything you wouldn't want to tell your Grandmother. Of course that assume your Grandmother is an ehtical person. :)

Life isn't black and white, and games aren't wrong or right. They're something from between, and in my opinion harmless enough.

At first I thought this fellow was writing a social paper about gaming until I came to the end about the rant of why folks spend  60 bucks for a re-skin of a game, I will say the huge wall of text almost hid the rant at the bottom.

NO folks have tried to pin all kinds of stuff on gaming.  We even had a kid down the road from us killed the sheriff 2 deputies and the dispatcher.  His lawyer blamed it on him playing some stupid video game.  However is father came forward and said I been telling folks for years that boy not right and nobody would listen.

The way I see it folks make choices with what they do with their free time and money.

And to answer the rant about spending 60 bucks on a re-skin of an old game.  I don't get it either.

Your comparison of gaming to drugs for the masses is rather shakey, and certainly doesn't help your discussion which seems to me actually about successful entertainment marketing/design rather than an ethical question :

'Both do some physical and mental damage' : Difficult to argue - gaming doesn't actually do more physical damage than any other sedentary activity and that's more about common sense than ethics. the mental damage could be argued from an addiction standpoint, but again arguing a comparison between the addictiveness of games and that of drugs is wildly inaccurate.

'Both spend time BOTH reqiure money' : same as any hobby, in fact.  Not really an ethical concern. I enjoy cooking, but that also takes time and money for ingredients.

'Both waste some time' : Gaming might be considered a waste of time by people who don't enjoy it, true, but again is wasting one's time an ethical problem?

'Both make you feel better even though you might not deserve it or have done nothing to earn it. You just pay money for it... Its just like tricking kids with candy...' : The question about the nature of happiness without having earned it is a good one and a topic that does get a lot of discussion, but again can be applied to anything we buy as a luxury item, not just gaming. 

'Do you think its correct to fool people to give their money just to give them a think that makes them feel they suck less??even though they still suck a lot and "winning" the game doesnt make you suck less' :  An odd question, that starts from the premise that the person buying the game 'sucks' and is buying the game because they think they will somehow  'suck less'. I'd challange your view that the majority of gamers fall into this category. taken at face value though, this question is again rather about the ethics of marketing than gaming - watch TV for a couple of hours, and pay attention to the adverts; from aftershave to cars, household goods to lifestyle changes - it's all geared to making people think they just need to spend that money and their lives will instantly be improved in some way.

It's great that you're putting a lot of thought into where you are going with your career, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree with your question as it stands....

Humans have to eat and drink to survive. Do we have to play video games? Yes, we do, but it's not specific to video games. Put it this way. Video games are just an activity where you are doing something with your hands. All you're really doing is manipulating data on a screen with your hands. Using your mind along with it. It's proven that games make you smarter.

Working is an activity as well. Except work activity is something we have to do, can be very stressful, and is not always fun. Too much stress can potentially hurt your health by making you depressed, overworked, and mentally stressed. Too much gaming can make you lack discipline and be less active (which also hurts health). It's important to find a balance.

A little stress can be an extremely good work motivational tool for you.

A little indulgence can be extremely self rewarding and helps you forget the stresses of life.

I personally like relaxing games or working towards some sort of goal. But sometimes I come home from responsibilities and want to just play a shooter.

Pretty much all my grandparents think technology is an evil thing. But they play cards, checkers, chess, puzzles, word crosses, you name it. They're what you'd call an even more old school gamer than what oldschool refers to these days.

Tag, Hide N Seek, and more (like sports) could be considered an even more primitive form of video games which are now being replaced with stuff like the Kinect and other motion sensor consoles where this type of game technology contains exercise.

I think it's a generation thing and with each new generation of kids the more familiar new technology will become and the less fearful people will become of it.

Ah winning. One of the reasons why WoW is so popular , it is so easy to win on that game.

Aside from that statement that is a bit trollish,  it is not so much winning. What draws me in to a game is the reward factor and the story. If you do something challenging you should be rewarded handsomely right?  Wrong as far as WoW goes, you are rewarded with awesome loot from just about anything.

I don't think that developers are actually yanking your pennies for your win unless their game has no story and the game itself consists of running around killing other players and mobs.  THankfully some developers know what it takes to make a game that people will buy.

Having second thought, you are saying people who create games are just in it for the money. That is unethical. Developers need t9o have a passion to create a story, a good UI, graphic design, and all the good tidbits so it is an illusion that they are not taking your money but instead you are buying an adventure that you will enjoy again and again.

Games with no replayability are very unethical. Say one of your friends buys a game and finds out there is no replayability after he/she finishes it. THey will tell you "here , you can borrow this so you can beat it."  If a game has no replayability then it hypotheticaly could potentially be only bought once and passed around the billions of people around the world. Since you only need to play it once, why bother keeping it for yourself? Thus the multiplayer aspect came in and made people want to compete. Compete for what? Back then most shooters did not give you anything  but your pride for winning a multiplayer match , but you still wanted to play anyway.

So why do I like rewards? Because rewards have become the standard in multiplayer video games today.  I would go as far enough as to say it kinda ruined the gaming world of competition. Here a lvl 1 player has an MP5 , and a level 50 player has an AK47. If they were equally skilled, the ak47 would win(CoD Black Ops example).  In most MMO's its all about who has the most DPS and to get that DPS you must have better gear. It is no longer a question of skill but time played. Time played = money spent= months paid fee.

Monthly fee games are greedy bastards  , but we are too stupid to realize it.  Ethically right for them, unethical for the enduser.

Games are as wrong as anything else. It is personal view/opinion and how people use that thing in accordance with YOUR opinion. Games are good way to spend to time for many reasons: story (like reading book but you have control a bit over it), competition, socialization and plenty of others. Also it is how you put it, by doing that you may make many things to look wrong/stupid/useless. After WoW came to life, i think most of gamers are casual (MY GUESS), and casual players want to come online for few hours and enjoy it without much challenge. After all after long day of work people want relaxation and does it matter what they choose to you? Some like to drink, other watch TV, others read books, others go out. And any of those simple and casual things bring joy to people... Even though they are simple and arent challenging they bring joy and thats what matters..

And I dont really see your problem with MMORPG. Please put it more clearly...

I think the only question is what your intentions are-- do you *purposely* create games to exploit psychology for profit, or do you create games to entertain, challenge, or tell/express something?

The creator of the game can't be held responsible for the way the product is used unless he designed it expressly for less-than-noble purposes. There's nothing wrong with entertainment or story-telling or giving people some non-destructive way to compete with one another. If a few people go off the rails and mess up their lives because of a game, that's not a problem with the game; those people create their own problems that happen to involve the game. (That is, they are doing it to themselves, the game isn't doing it to them.) 

On the other hand, it would be a little more questionable if you are looking at it and saying, "I bet we could make a Facebook app and get people to click squares on a grid, looking for randomly placed objects. I bet we could  keep them going for a long time if we let them level up so they feel like they are accomplishing something and put them on a leaderboard so they are competing against other square clickers! Yeah! That will do it. Now to monetize it..." 

If you want to become a game designer as in developer or graphics designer or something like that you do not need to worry for all you have to do is to make a good game.

Is the managers who do all the falsehood, the guys who buy bogus ads, create hype and try to sell as many boxes as possible no matter what. 

At least the way I see it

I believe all entertainment should leave its consumer better than he/she came. Nowadays though, entertainment exists to dumb down society so that they will except lower and lower quality things in life, whether its education , government, personal freedom, general discourse, we are beset on all sides by a consistent lowering of the caliber of things, while at the same time being propogandized to think we are advancing somehow, or worse that we are the best. Its the hype machine of this life, and entertainment is its primary tool. Despite life becoming more and more difficult and restricted, we in the states do little to escape our respective lots in life or  transcend what the system would try to limit us to be, instead we flee to imaginary worlds to seek achievements of no meaning and bounty that doesn't exist hour after hour, day after day, year after year. What if instead of escape, we sought action? What if instead of exploring imaginary worlds we traversed this one? Would you maybe discover that the world is not what tv has said it is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfPkg8S4Fio

Gaming and entertainment has its place but it should be grassroots, its should reflect what  the people want for themselves not what some corporate bigwigs want for us. We need to tell our own stories, and be rulers of our own minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylhqasb1chI

God bless...

Originally posted by Luv_bug

I believe all entertainment should leave its consumer better than he/she came. Nowadays though, entertainment exists to dumb down society so that they will except lower and lower quality things in life, whether its education , government, personal freedom, general discourse, we are beset on all sides by a consistent lowering of the caliber of things, while at the same time being propogandized to think we are advancing somehow, or worse that we are the best. Its the hype machine of this life, and entertainment is its primary tool. Despite life becoming more and more difficult and restricted, we in the states do little to escape our respective lots in life or  transcend what the system would try to limit us to be, instead we flee to imaginary worlds to seek achievements of no meaning and bounty that doesn't exist hour after hour, day after day, year after year. What if instead of escape, we sought action? What if instead of exploring imaginary worlds we traversed this one? Would you maybe discover that the world is not what tv has said it is? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfPkg8S4Fio

Gaming and entertainment has its place but it should be grassroots, its should reflect what  the people want for themselves not what some corporate bigwigs want for us. We need to tell our own stories, and be rulers of our own minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylhqasb1chI

 

God bless...

This is so true! Couldn't have said it better.

I'm with Elidien on this - gaming as immoral or as some kind of opiate for the masses just doesn't compute for me.

I'm unsure whether you mean to say that gaming qua gaming is somehow unethical or whether companies releasing shallow expansions and charging for them is.

Think that last bit muddied the waters some.

Plenty of people are content to play reskinned "sequels" to games they enjoyed - and as long as those people are there the market (and game designers) will continue to cater to them. Supply and demand.

Catering to a market cannot really be seen as unethical unless you are acively (and deceptively) marketing goods which are proven to damage the majority of people that use them (eg - a faulty electrical product that is shipped by a company that knows there is a high chance of the item going on fire), I don't think any game can be bracketted with that - of course people may disagree.

I always took games like another sort of drug (wich i am addicted, I have to say) to relief the real life stress and to have an own world for myself and my mind (wich most of the human beings do not want to accept their "part of this planet ecosystem")  and  use methods artificially made for that purpose.

So for me is not "wrong" nor even inside "ethical", is just another way... some people like to steal... some people like to play football.. who really cares... live and let live this electric-organic mix that we detect as "world" through our eyes.

OP i think you should enlarge by a lot your vision of games, because games arent just mmos (thats not a critique right, but an advise).

I don't know read some book about sport history like soccer and all those ball games over the world, look where they came from and how they developed up until now, why they are such a success now. And maybe try to find some psychological essay about the importance of gaming in human but also animal development, in fact in all mamals i think. Games are one of the pillar of learning for younger and one of the most positive aspect of life at adult stage.

I think this could give you the kick needed to see mmos and computer games at an other level than just "computer games" and "mmos". It might resolve the question your are asking too, and give you other horizons for your thoughts.

If you think gaming might be wrong, i think its because you might have trapped yourself badly.