But it cuts both ways, because both Stradden and Bill are both taking the position of "If you don't agree with us, you must be blinded by anti-$OE hate".

Opinions differ. When you start to disparage the participant of the debate and not the facts of the debate, you've lost. Saying our opinion of DCUO is irrevelant because we were victims of the nge debacle just makes your opinion shaky at best.

Other than the artwork (Jim Lee can't go wrong) this game is at best Champions and at worst Champions beta. Its all been done before. $OE has a long history of setting the bar low and managing to hit their heads everytime.

Honest un-biased opinions from paid mmorpg.com columnists? Perhaps... but aslong as your site gets paid by developers for the same product that you allegedly have un-biased opinions on, there will always be that doubt.

I mean not having bias for someone that pays you... I dont know...

I understand the concept of an opinion. What has become painfully clear is that I can safely label these opinions as ALWAYS overly positive and ALWAYS in favour of the developers goal to sell their game or achieve financial success via transactions. This site makes little or no attempt to PROTECT us as gamers from the excesses of developers.

This is a PROBLEM because one function of a review is to HELP the gamer make a good judgement on the game before parting with cash. You do NOT help me make a good decision and so I have largely stopped reading the columns.

Instead, it is the forums that provide real information even though they can be chaotic to negotiate.

The community spotlight pieces are HENCE very useful, I'd suggest to have more of these and only occasional opinion from the site's employees.

Originally posted by Strap

I understand the concept of an opinion. What has become painfully clear is that I can safely label these opinions as ALWAYS overly positive and ALWAYS in favour of the developers goal to sell their game or achieve financial success via transactions. This site makes little or no attempt to PROTECT us as gamers from the excesses of developers.

 

This is a PROBLEM because one function of a review is to HELP the gamer make a good judgement on the game before parting with cash. You do NOT help me make a good decision and so I have largely stopped reading the columns.

 

Instead, it is the forums that provide real information even though they can be chaotic to negotiate.

 

The community spotlight pieces are HENCE very useful, I'd suggest to have more of these and only occasional opinion from the site's employees.

I think thats the worst idea ever.  Most of the spotlights are on general MMO conversations,  but in truth, even if they were to spotlight a particular posters comments,  it wouldn't be any better unless you knew the poster specifically.  Would you have believed me any more if I were spotlighted on the front page with a review of DCUO that corresponded with what the MMORPG.com staff said?

Probably not,  because here,  unless the review is pessimistic, or paints the game in a bad light,  people would just think MMORPG.com staff paid the poster,  or they only highlight the posts they like,  and that would bring a whole new set of issues.

The only thing people could truly count on would be that they need to make their own decisions based on the information given.  If they come here and read all the negative postings and heed them only,  then they'll walk away with a very poor overview of MMORPGs total.  If they gauge games based on overall reviews across the board,  then they may be disappointed a la an AOC fiasco where reviews were usually written based on the first 20 levels, and the MMO portion was severely lacking.

It was because of some of the posts I read on this site that kept me away from Global Agenda for so long,  but someone I trusted told me to give it a shot, and I love that game now.  I came here asking about it with a lot of mixed views, but it wasn't until I got up the nerve to take a chance did I really find out whether it would be worth it.    

Mr. Murphy, why do you feel you needed to write this little message? Are people accusing you of being a sellout to some game studios? I'm just curious, because I know that some web sites work with these publishers and get paid for giving good reviews. I guess you need to take reviews with a grain of salt because you never really know, do you?

Frankly I would NOT want to run MMORPG.com as a business, because there are inherently two different, conflicting interests to be served:

In order to attract the advertising from companies such as SOE, the site must first demonstrate they have the hit numbers / member numbers to justify the the not insignificant fees to pay several salaries and keep the site up. Also, company like SOE, who buys the advertising can expect, at worst, reasonably tight moderation about their titles and good PR about their upcoming releases. And also some feature articles highlighting games to be released. Otherwise, the advertisers don't buy space, pay fees and MMORPG.com is screwed.

And:

In order to attract people for those hit numbers / member accts, they have to allow the (somewhat) open debate of different MMOs and MMO topics and provide "content" that is interesting enough to get people here in the first place. Customers expect some level of objectivity about the various MMO titles, including covering the negative points of various games they are buying, in order to make an informed decision about a title they want to buy. Especially, in actual reviews of the games mentioned. When people do not get this, on the backs of feautres and "opinion pieces" and reviews that ignore, minimize, and downplay the negative aspects of the MMOs that are supposed to covered here, they get pissed off, especially if they read a pumped up review or feature piece, buy a new game and find out they paid full price for a crappy game. And then, they leave, make it known that MMORPG.com's reviews/features are a joke, don't come back, and then this site can not legitimately claim the numbers, make the high rate from advertiers and thus MMORPG.com is screwed.

So what is to be done? MMORPG.com needs to not give sun-par games an obvious free pass (which is happening to some extent with DCUO) for things that are glaringly substandard in the games they cover, while over emphasizing the positive aspects. Othewise, any review or feature will have no credibilty with the customer base whatsoever. Further, Management calling out customer views, whether justified or not, on what is largely an opinion forum site, is just a bad idea.

For the customer, it may be that the only place to get honest information is the forums, which are usually reasonably moderated. We know that this site is paid by the development companies and we know the writers realize that if they give bad marks to the products their advertising are selling, the advertisers might leave and the writers not get a paycheck.

In the end it is a balancing act, but the balance should  come down on the side of "honesty" anyway, otherwise, there is no reason to come here. And lost advertising revenue is a moot point.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Strap

I understand the concept of an opinion. What has become painfully clear is that I can safely label these opinions as ALWAYS overly positive and ALWAYS in favour of the developers goal to sell their game or achieve financial success via transactions. This site makes little or no attempt to PROTECT us as gamers from the excesses of developers.

 

This is a PROBLEM because one function of a review is to HELP the gamer make a good judgement on the game before parting with cash. You do NOT help me make a good decision and so I have largely stopped reading the columns.

 

Instead, it is the forums that provide real information even though they can be chaotic to negotiate.

 

The community spotlight pieces are HENCE very useful, I'd suggest to have more of these and only occasional opinion from the site's employees.

I think thats the worst idea ever.  Most of the spotlights are on general MMO conversations,  but in truth, even if they were to spotlight a particular posters comments,  it wouldn't be any better unless you knew the poster specifically.  Would you have believed me any more if I were spotlighted on the front page with a review of DCUO that corresponded with what the MMORPG.com staff said?

 

Probably not,  because here,  unless the review is pessimistic, or paints the game in a bad light,  people would just think MMORPG.com staff paid the poster,  or they only highlight the posts they like,  and that would bring a whole new set of issues.

 

The only thing people could truly count on would be that they need to make their own decisions based on the information given.  If they come here and read all the negative postings and heed them only,  then they'll walk away with a very poor overview of MMORPGs total.  If they gauge games based on overall reviews across the board,  then they may be disappointed a la an AOC fiasco where reviews were usually written based on the first 20 levels, and the MMO portion was severely lacking.

 

It was because of some of the posts I read on this site that kept me away from Global Agenda for so long,  but someone I trusted told me to give it a shot, and I love that game now.  I came here asking about it with a lot of mixed views, but it wasn't until I got up the nerve to take a chance did I really find out whether it would be worth it.    

Fair comments and on reflection, you are probably right.

Having said that. I find myself getting to know the frequent posters on these forums and finding like-minded individuals. It is a bit, as in your example, like finding a friend you trust and them making what turned out to be a good recommendation.

The comunity spotlight DOES help me find like-minded people (there are SO many threads and boards here you often miss interesting threads) so in that sense they do help me find games I think are good value for money.

Finding reliable information about the games I'm interested in playing usually comes from players, not from journalists. Just saying.

MMORPG.com needs to be more like Top Gear :\

You get paid to bring up the pros and cons but can damn anything that deserves it. Some companies really don't like the Top Gear guys for some of their previous damning 'reviews', but that never stops them.

The real trouble is that there are just far too many sites like this one.

Originally posted by Tyroki

MMORPG.com needs to be more like Top Gear :\

You get paid to bring up the pros and cons but can damn anything that deserves it. Some companies really don't like the Top Gear guys for some of their previous damning 'reviews', but that never stops them.

The real trouble is that there are just far too many sites like this one.

 

There are a ton of sites like this one because publishers have billions of dollars to throw away on crap like this rather than actually making decent games.  That's ok, MMORPG.com will do their job and help SOE sell more copies of another crap game which, in turn, will guarantee that SOE will continue with their shovelware for the forseeable future. 

I think part of the problem is that we mistake the writers here and across the sites for being journalists.  They are bloggers, paid tho some may be, they are bloggers which is a far cry from a professional journalist.

I come here to get news, not get news on how news is got. Do yer thing, write gaming articles, opinions or whatever they're called. Just give us the news, you don't have to explain why. At least not to me.

Everybody has their own opinion, even the readers. Keep on keepin' on. :)

I don't normally post on this site, but this recent rash of defensive articles about DCUO forced my hand.  This article appears as sheer hubris, striking back at the unwashed masses who dare question how your articles are perceived.

If you want to write stories and inside articles about the games like DCUO where you're excited about it, fine.  That's your prerogative and it's your site.  And you have been honest about enjoying DCUO in your weekly articles.  But let's actually talk about honesty for a moment.

Your launch preview of DCUO has a list of Pros and Cons and ends with a "two thumbs up" graphic with the words "Go out and pick this bad boy up as soon as you can. This is a game you can't live without."  Honestly, I thought that was the review.  What about that article doesn't scream review?  How is that "honest"?

And in this article, you say that you'll be doing the review of DCUO in a few weeks and then scant words later, say that you've been forwarding concerns/complaints about the game to Tony Jones and Chris Cao.  It's not your honesty that I question, it's your objectivity.  You are too close to the game and the people who created it to review it without that influence.

You've been gushing about this game since late November.  I simply cannot expect you to provide an objective look at the game.  I'm not trying to jump on you for that experience as I'd have a hard time being objective about games I enjoy playing, but when I read a review, that's what I expect.  You say that you'll rein it in, but if you were honest about giving an objective review, you'd hand it to someone else who hasn't had the kind of contact you've had with the games or the people who created it.  Right now, it has the appearance of a quid pro quo, which I believe isn't the case, but obviously from MMORPG's multiple defensive articles, certainly appears that way to a number of people.

Originally posted by travamars

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by travamars

This reminds me of the many richard ahoshi post that are spent complaining about people not agreeing with him, and nothing about gaming. Either agree or dont post seems to the message around here.

That wasn't what he said at all.  He said you can agree or disagree with him on the forums all you like,  just realize that his columns are opinions while his reviews are more critical,  and he won't write a negative article just to preach to the choir.  He will be honest in his articles rather than just write what he thinks the community wants to hear.

 If you can agree or disagree then whats the problem?

Apparently someone hurt his feelings and didnt agree with something he said or he wouldn't have written this.

It would be nice to read an "Honest" article (opinion or review) of a game released by a AAA company. Just dont see that happening, so when someone questions the "honesty"' of said article it becomes an "opinion"

Has anyone given a review "honest or not" of FFXIV? wonder why.

Wow, how can people miss the whole point so completely? What he has been acused of is lying or being in the pocket of the game company suits for simply stating his opinions. I would think the title of this piece, "Honesty" and the 10 or so times he stated that he's just giving his 'honest' opinions would have clued you in. He enjoys a wide variety of games and his columns reflect that. In his reviews he tries to be a little more objective and that shows as well. It's not people disagreeing with him that he has an issue with... It's the morons who accuse him and others that write for this site of lying like they have some agenda when all they are doing is stating their opinions.

These guys and gals that write for this site do a great job so cut them some slack. You can disagree with them all you want just don't accuse them of lying for simply stating an opinion.

Bren

I think there should be more people writing featured articles on this site. I've noticed that the MMORPG writers have been fairly unanimous in their opinions. I want to see somebody who differs.

Okay, I get it, you want us to feel that you're an honest person, and I respect that, Bill, so I'll tell you exactly how you go about achieving the trust you seek. First of all, you assess the key elements of the game in an unbiased fashion.  Most reviewers can do this, and I'm sure you won' t have any problems with that, either. Visuals, sound effects, music, cutscenes, core gameplay mechanics, etc.  Just let us know what you like and don't like about them and you've got a good start. Where it gets tricky is what you decide to omit.  It's easy to tell us what you feel comfortable being honest about, quite something else to deceive through omission. No, you didn't outright lie, you just failed to mention those things that perhaps fell in the "conflict of interest" category.

So, fine, be honest, don't do that, tell us what you really think, and you WILL be seen as honest, because, frankly, you let us know everything you thought of the game that you felt we should know, both good and bad. Then put a number on it based on your perceived bang for the buck and Viola!, you've gained some solid rep! Personally, I think opinion pieces are easy to write, reviews or otherwise, because it just involves saying what you mean and standing behind what you say. If someone points out a flaw or oversight in my opinion, I'm open to revising it. Again, that builds trust and respect between parties. Honest opinions are the ones we're willing to change if presented with a valid argument. Dishonest ones are those we will not, because the foundation of them is riddled with the decay of half-truths, omissions, and blind loyalty.

Originally posted by Tardcore

 

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

Good little write up there. I think the main problem at this site and others, and heck out in the real world as well, is that people can't seem to grasp that an opinion is not a fact. If you disagree with a persons opinion of something, that does not mean they are wrong, it just means you disagree with them. And while you have every right to disagree with them you do not have the right to tell them what they should or should not think or feel.

On the topic of DCUO I played the beta and felt it was a fun game, but not something that can hold my attention for any period of time.

On DCUO I would value your opinion on one question. Given their talent, money, and experiance with MMOs do you feel that DCUO in its current state is the best game that SOE could have produced?

 

 Nope SOE could have used the money and resources to better their exsisting games which have been suffering. Games like Planetside, Vanguard, and of course SWG. The fact is SOE cant keep those games up to par yet they continue to expand EQ and EQ2 and introduce new games into the market. If they wont expand the meantioned games it would serve best if they made them F2P instead of just dragging them along with subscriptions.

Me thinks he doth protest too much.

Sod the proles.  Write what you want.  If people are reading and responding, positively or negatively, they're interested in what you have to say.  As long as your pieces continue to be read, you're doing your job.  The only opinion that really matters at the end of it all is your employer's.  If they're happy, it's because you're keeping your readers engaged on some level.  That's all that's important.

Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw

Originally posted by thamighty213

The problem is the same as every game journalism site or publication these days you never read anything bad.

 

We have a winner!

And yet even though we never read anything bad, it's generally accepted that the majority of mmo's are a broken waste of money, and that mmo's will always launch incomplete, and that mmo companies will always be trying to rip us off. What does this tell us then about the 'journalists' who are generally regarded as our (the consumers) first and greatest defense against being ripped off? These game 'news' websites do nothing but validate to the publishers that they can have their way with the playerbase day in and day out, and will continue to do so until the mmo industry collapses due to people finally saying no. and not just saying no to buying the games, but no to trusting and visiting websites that have earned themselves a reputation for being nothing but yes-men to the companys that want to have at our wallets. Websites such as this one.

 

 

Hi Bob,

I find people like you difficult to understand. You're obviously generally angry about everything to do with MMO's. So much so that you are on a thread taking the time to put down a game you've already written off, like somehow you'll get some sort of karmic reward for it. Not content with writing of DCUO, you want to cast aspersions on this guy, and make fairly insulting insinuations with absolutely nothing to back it up with.

We have a winner! says Bob

I direct you to :

http://www.mmorpg.com/features.cfm/view/reviews ... Wow look at all those glowing reviews. Oh wait.

You say : 

"generally accepted that the majority of mmo's are a broken waste of money, and that mmo's will always launch incomplete, and that mmo companies will always be trying to rip us off".

Generally accepted by who? I have plenty of great memories of many different MMO's I have played over the years. Am I not the 'general' you were talking about? Where are the statistics for this breakdown of people who feel as you do versus the 'others'?

And this from you

So the brain tries to figure out how this journalist who should be much more experienced and discriminating than a person such as myself, could so enthusiastically settle for an obviously flawed product. It's quite easy to see how one could come to the conclusion that there's some payola involved.

I think perhaps 'your' brain tries to figure it out. Most others, perhaps one would even say the more 'discriminating and experienced' of us, just see it for what it is - Opinion.

Perhaps Bill just feels as Herbert Bayard Swope did when he said: 

"It occurred to me that nothing is more interesting than opinion when opinion is interesting".

Bill's opinions seem interesting. Yours seem fairly run of the mill.

Cheers.