Originally posted by levin70

So if i tell you that my parents purchased an atari pong console in 1975 for me, does that satisfactorily present my "old school" bonifides?

 

Seriously, OP.  Your title and post was meant as a flamefest.  Was that really necessary to insult those of us "old schoolers"?

 

The game will play well and will be enjoyable for many, especially those who grew up on modern consoles and not playing Zork on a 1979 Apple IIe (again, with the "old school" bonifides).  Some, like me maybe not so much.  That doesn't mean it doesn't nor shouldn't have a place along side all of the "old school" mmo's

 

Play it, enjoy or, or not.  But kill the comments meant only to flame.

 

Regards

I know its not always easy after threads get so many posts, but in my responses I clarified what I meant pretty thoroughly.  I will not change the OP.  "Oldschool" MMOers is pretty disingenuous, and taking offense to it is only warranted if you'd believe yourself to be a self proclaimed "Oldschool" MMO player.   

Like or hate the game for what it is,  not for what you expect it to be because of the MMO prefix.  If by being an "oldschool" MMO player people mean that games must always follow the "golden" path of MMOs and have the same combat, the crafting, the same classes and community elements for them to truly be worth playing in the genre -- then again the "Oldschool"  MMOers won't get the combat here amongst many of the other elements DCUO offers.

Call it an insult or flamebait if you want,  but I find it more insulting that so many threads crop up with posters degrading the system and the type of players that may find it enjoyable because the system isn't what they're used to.

I like the combat in the game a lot. I love the artwork. As a fan of the UT III UDK tools I am really happy to see what this game has done with this engine. My first MMO was Earth and Beyond. Before that it was all FPS. It is nice to see that SOE finally got their NGE down with combat. Well back to my old world of type writers. 

For the life of me I don't understand why people are saying people won't sub to this game. As I said before, I am definatley an "old-school" MMORPGer, and this game is great IMO. Currently, being in both the beta for this and the beta for Rift, DCUO is hands down, without question the better game. I was expecting to like Rift and its just more of the same... I was expecting to NOT like DCUO and I love it. Funny how that works.

the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

 click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

Originally posted by TribeofOne

the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

 

 click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

 Ok so why is it crap?

Originally posted by Meromorph

Agreed, old school MMOs cannot fathom why anyone would pay a $15/month subscription fee and enter a locked-in-DRM relationship with SOE to play a console style action-brawler with RPG elements that has 40 or so hours of content. 

There is no way this game will be subscription based in the long-term; they just know that some IP fans will be willingly to pay for collectors editions and monthly fees, but once that source of revenue has been exhausted, they will switch to buy to play + cash shop after 6 months.

This is true. If anyone thinks that SOE havent got a cash shop plan set up for this game right from the go, then they don't know SOE.

If you love being double dipped, triple if you include the box, vote for SOE.

From the OP's description the combat doesn't sound all that different from CO's. For me, that is a welcome idea. I like the reactive combat. I am still hoping I will find an action/twitch style MMO  that will survive the initial release rush. I haven't seen it yet.

I can understand both sides to the argument. I haven't played the game myself yet, but am excited to try it on my ps3. I enjoy both console games and MMOs. I have played dozens of "classic" mmos and currently play WoW, which i will likely continue to play as I understand there is a difference in style to these games.

I think SoE understands this game will not be for everyone. But props to them for not trying to make it for everyone. I think CoX tried to appeal to action oriented gamers but didnt go the full distance with their concepts and ultimately the combat felt like it wanted to be something it wasn't. That is just my opinion though.

I applaud SoE for having the balls to just go full out with DCUO and make it a full action real time combat system and not pull any punches it make it more traditional. WIll it pay off? We will see. But I think at the least it will certain have a niche market. I do think some kind of free to play model after purchase might have been preferable to this style of game though.

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Meromorph

Agreed, old school MMOs cannot fathom why anyone would pay a $15/month subscription fee and enter a locked-in-DRM relationship with SOE to play a console style action-brawler with RPG elements that has 40 or so hours of content. 

There is no way this game will be subscription based in the long-term; they just know that some IP fans will be willingly to pay for collectors editions and monthly fees, but once that source of revenue has been exhausted, they will switch to buy to play + cash shop after 6 months.

 

 

This is true. If anyone thinks that SOE havent got a cash shop plan set up for this game right from the go, then they don't know SOE.

If you love being double dipped, triple if you include the box, vote for SOE.

 God I get so sick of you people. Get over it already, you don't like SOE then move on. SW:TOR is coming out, SWG is in the past. Just move on!

One last comment to make though, is "classic" mmos hardly had more involved combat systems. Lets all remember the EverQuest style:

Warrior= auto attack, kick, bash wait

Caster= click cast, wait...wait...wait, click again, wait wait, fights over rest for 20 minutes

Its all button mashing, some just make you mash buttons more often which for me can make you feel more engaged.

Cool post, Shame into what it did though lol...

I dig the fact that Levels dont really give people 2 much of a cushion pvp wise but you left out the Gear aspect and how it effects PvP...

P.S. im an old school gamer....started with Asherons Call and atm in Darkfall waiting on DCU.....

So the OP is mainly saying that oldschool will not understand the concept of watching an event and pressing a combination of keys to produce a respon in time.

Interesting. The OP is definetely not oldschool.

Lets be clear... it is not important if you were a MUD player, or a sandbox player (UO), or a themepark player (EQ), or whatever. Most all combat in MMORPGs were and are still done by how the OP described. And actually some old MMOs were more complicated than what the OP is describing.

Even games like AoC, which was supposed to have a revolutionary combat system, ends up being "event X happen, execute action Y".

Lets all recall... under specific circuntances (like who is the target, what is he doing, what is the rest of the enemies/mobs doing, etc, etc, etc), we always had to do ceratin stuff. Like... stun, mez, interrupt, dot, hot, heal, snare, hit, combo (yes, MMOs do have combos), kite, guard, debuff, buff, rez, run like hell, charge, detaunt, taunt, take positional, stealth, purge, etc, etc, etc.

Whoever react faster, has more chances to win. Just as example... all the DAoC players knows that who mez the enemy team first has a huge advantage... and that applies for anything done in any MMO.

If anything this OP is telling me... is that DC combat seems very... simplistic.

I dunno if I would call it simpler, its a different mindset the OP has than what I refer to as reality. The game mechanics in this game appear to be more hand-eye than reasoning. If thats what he means by old school it came accross more as an age discrimination / hatred issue than that. Most current MMO games, and the older ones, the victory was met thru a series of logical and well planned moves based off the situation as it unfolds. A form of reasoning, logical thinking, and fast paced deductive planning was involved if you wanted to best your opponent (AI or player). In more 'twitch' based gameplay scenerios, which this one falls under, it is more important to be faster in your response physically than anything else. Knowning the basic moves and counter moves and employing them in the most rapid response to a given visual queue is all thats required to become victorious. Its not that the other type of gamer which he tries to label as old school dont 'get it' its just that most of us (yes I'm in that category) would refer to it as dumbed down. Any fool can run a marathon if he has legs to which run upon, but it takes a strategy to win one, and thats done with the mind.

As to the old school comment by the OP, well if he has that much of an issue with people older than he is I recommend he get some help there. Old school gamer means people who have played more than one type of game, have seen the genre develop over time first hand, not just read about it and think they know what it was like. You, as a younger gamer, are only able to play your NEW games because people like us were around from the beginning to see and participate in it from the start. Without the old school, your games wouldnt' be where they are today. When we were younger we played the ones that first came out, now we are designing them, the ones you are staring out on. In 20 years maybe you will have learned enough to create the next generation of games. And oh yeah, when that time comes, and your taking a break at work, you too can read a post by some young fool about how you 'won't get it' because your too damn old. When that day comes I hope you remember where you are today, and that you were that young fool.

Originally posted by ScribZ

 

As to the old school comment by the OP, well if he has that much of an issue with people older than he is I recommend he get some help there. Old school gamer means people who have played more than one type of game, have seen the genre develop over time first hand, not just read about it and think they know what it was like. You, as a younger gamer, are only able to play your NEW games because people like us were around from the beginning to see and participate in it from the start. Without the old school, your games wouldnt' be where they are today. When we were younger we played the ones that first came out, now we are designing them, the ones you are staring out on. In 20 years maybe you will have learned enough to create the next generation of games. And oh yeah, when that time comes, and your taking a break at work, you too can read a post by some young fool about how you 'won't get it' because your too damn old. When that day comes I hope you remember where you are today, and that you were that young fool.

I must be a "young fool" then.  Even though, to get any understanding of my stance or anything about me in particular, it would take you reading more then my initial post.    For one I think you misread the title if you think that "Oldschool MMOers"  are "Oldschool" Gamers, or the idea behind why "Oldschool" is in quotes.  But as I'm seemingly age discriminate, I'll leave you to your impressions.

TLDR version.  This game is designed around twitch gaming, which is not typically the style associated with MMORPG's which is what most "oldschool" players have traditionally enjoyed.

A niche game for a niche market, those looking to reward twitch gaming skills instead of the usual items such as time played, strategic thinking, planning and the like.  To the quick goes the victory.

Originally posted by Kyleran

TLDR version.  This game is designed around twitch gaming, which is not typically the style associated with MMORPG's which is what most "oldschool" players have traditionally enjoyed.

A niche game for a niche market, those looking to reward twitch gaming skills instead of the usual items such as time played, strategic thinking, planning and the like.  To the quick goes the victory.

Pretty much so,  thanks Kyleran. 

Because Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, God of War, Counter Strike, Starcraft, Street Fighter, and Gears of War, and the like are all niche games!

Ow. Twitch gaming + typical mmo terribad ping = slooooooooooow gameplay... (or, if fast enough, terribly unbalanced towards players with better ping)...

There's no way out of this equation i can think of... (except massive instancing)

I think the OP made this post because the basics of combat did seem to be difficult for some players to grasp in beta, many of whom called for changes which would have put the game more in line with traditional MMO combat.

Such as with the tank role, a lot of players complained that they weren't able to absorb enough damage to perform that duty and survive.  But that was more because they insisted on playing a more traditional tank style of planting their feet, taunting, and depending on healing to keep them alive.  DCU requires all characters to physically dodge and move, and that seemed hard for some people to grasp.  Tanks taunt, roll/dodge the big blasts, and keep pouring on pressure to keep the attention focused on them.  Personally I found that to be a nice change of pace from the tanking I've been accustomed to, it felt more active and skill based.   I wouldn't call it twitch, however.  You're very much reading and reacting to the situation, and playing which powers to use in combination (there are several power interactions to consider) and when.  

But anyway, I suppose I was compelled to post because I think the thread was giving the impression that this was simply a twitch based action game, or a spam click-fest.  I'd say it's a much deeper system than one realizes at first glance (easy to pick up/difficult to master) that definitely rewards a strategic approach along to quick reactions.

I'll probably play it as a buffer until SWTOR.  It's an undeniably fun game, just not sure it's got longevity.

so much effort to justify the bad combat in this game.  i can understand it i guess SOE cant afford ANOTHER failure.