Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Josher

Its easy to see patterns in people.  Nationalism is for stupid simple minded folks, as is religion, marriage, family & tradition.  Its all for the sheep.  Those of us who are enlightened & educated,(code word for internet smart or maybe a mail order degree) can see through it all=)   Silly borders.  Countries shouldn't exist, nor families or anything organized, because teams are for sheep.  People coming together are like a herd of dumb animals.  Better to hide up in your room away from people connected to the interwebs where we can gloat from above it all.   Herp a derp!   

The nationalism you defend is little more than primitive group behavior. You claim it's easy to see patterns in people,if that is true then how come you are blatantly wrong? People who don't follow your silly feelings of nationalism aren't necessarily against either countries or families.

When you start pledging to a pole with a piece of cloth on it, you have taken nationalism a step into irrationality. You give meaning to something that has no meaning.

And now I understand where the disconnect is.  You thought people are worshiping a "thing" all this time?   Now it all makes sense.  No wonder.  I completely forgive you for your ignorance.  That post above explains it quite well.   Its the concept of freedom people are acknowledging.    You might disagree with our ideals, but thats not our problem.  You might not understand why we're proud of our country, but thats also not our problem.  You might think we should be ashamed of ourselves.  Not our problem.   You can demean us for this behavior.  We don't care=)   Seems like a whole lot of jealousy to me.   

Actually pledging your allegiance to your country is contradictory with the concept of freedom.

For which i'd point to my previous post. And additionally what value does that pledge even add ?! still didn't get an answer for  that

It supposed to make you feel proud.  Some people like you might get angry=)  Most people for example probably get a nice tingle inside when they hear the Star Spangled Banner sung well.   You want to know the value?  Look at the face of someone who won a gold at the Olympics when the national anthem plays.  Look at how many tear up?  Those tears aren't just from the medal.    The value is the feeling you get inside.  Its a nice feeling.  Well, at least its supposed to invoke positive emotions=)  Some people like yourself would just say its a weakness of mind.  

Whats the value in a college fight song?  Whats the value in a prayer?  Whats the value in putting your hand up or on that "evil" book  when you're on the witness stand?

Feel proud? But proud of what? Don't you think too much pride leads to arrogance?

Additionally , this is totally different from any example you have given.

- International sports event: you represent your country it is normal that you're happy you represented it the best you could. Unless you dislike your country that would make anybody happy. This is not a matter of Nationalist pride , just love for your country.

- College fight songs? What?! Well we never had any college fight songs but i guess it is used as encouragement or for the atmosphere?

- Pareyers, now you must be kidding me. I will let you think about the value of it yourself.

- And putting your hand on the "evil" book adds no value at all, unless you're religious. A "passé" thecratic element which is getting more and more useless as religions tend to lose popularity.

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Josher

Its easy to see patterns in people.  Nationalism is for stupid simple minded folks, as is religion, marriage, family & tradition.  Its all for the sheep.  Those of us who are enlightened & educated,(code word for internet smart or maybe a mail order degree) can see through it all=)   Silly borders.  Countries shouldn't exist, nor families or anything organized, because teams are for sheep.  People coming together are like a herd of dumb animals.  Better to hide up in your room away from people connected to the interwebs where we can gloat from above it all.   Herp a derp!   

The nationalism you defend is little more than primitive group behavior. You claim it's easy to see patterns in people,if that is true then how come you are blatantly wrong? People who don't follow your silly feelings of nationalism aren't necessarily against either countries or families.

When you start pledging to a pole with a piece of cloth on it, you have taken nationalism a step into irrationality. You give meaning to something that has no meaning.

You aren't pledging your allegience to this flag (the particular one you are looking at), not to this piece of cloth, but to a symbol that represents the USA. Just as the Statue of Liberty isn't a sculpture of rusted copper but a symbol meaning liberty, so does the American flag represent the growth of thirteen colonies into fifty united states. The pledge isn't worshipping a particular piece of cloth, but is an act that uses the flag as a symbol to pledge allegience to your country.

That said, there are other ways to criticize the pledge than to be ignorant of the ways of symbolism.

When you are young, saying the pledge isn't an act of swearing your oath of loyalty to the country, it is more the doing of a routine: at the beginning of the day, you stand up, you say those words, and you sit down. The meaning of the words isn't relevent to the young person, they are merely words that you say. I testify to this being the case for when I said the pledge when I was young. Unless if I am a case in isolation, then I do not doubt that it was the same for others.

At this point, fully concious of the meaning behind the words, I still will participate in saying the pledge, even if I disagree with the necessity of doing so, because the choice not to recite the pledge highlights you as a person making a distinct act of disloyalty; if one is loyal to the USA, then reciting the pledge isn't an issue with you, even if you disagree with the necessity of the process, because the words are in sync with your loyalties. If you don't participate with custom and, unlike all others, sit down in silence while others are pledging, then you are making the statement that you are not an ally of the USA.

If I am called to pledge my alliegience, then I will do so, but if I am asked whether or not the process of asking others to recite the pledge is something I encourage, then I will say no.

Further, the purpose of the pledge is to make public one's continued loyalty to the USA. Since the section of the pledge identifying that the USA is "one nation under God" is not vital to that previously mentioned act, but is more an identification of a supposed fact, and given that not all people believe in God, then it therefore is an optional section within the greater pledge that doesn't need to be said by all.

Likewise, if one is in a courtroom and is called upon to testify and finds himself/herself asked to swear that their words are truth by placing their hand upon the Bible and saying as much, and this person doesn't believe in God, then doing that previously mentioned action is a worthless gesture.

My quesion would be: What does loyalty to a certain country even means? In a country ruled by a centralized government it makes perfect sense as it can be interpreted by being loyal to the Government. But otherwise it means nothing, how can you be loyal to something as abstract as "a country" ? A soldier can be loyal as his duty is to defend the country and therefor his task is clear and defined. But what would it mean for average joe? It could mean everything and nothing. And therefor it is pointless.

It means that I won't terrorize it, it means that I won't jeopardize it, it means I won't betray it, and it means that I thank it for the freedom it does allow me to live in, and that I'm grateful for having the ability to live here.

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

Originally posted by Enigma

having pride in your own country is a healthy and normal thing to have. You should be happy where you live. However, being forced to recite a pledge ...and especially for children who really do not know what the words mean makes very little sense to me. It's like chanting an anthem you know nothing of.

Also, America is about free choices and people should be free to decide if they want to do the pledge or not....no permission sleep needed. When you force people to do the pledge, then you loose the main focus of why America is America in the first place.

When my number came up for the draft in 1969, I had to report in.  There was no free choice.  They let me out of the draft because of hardship.  I felt so bad, I joined the Navy and requested a river boat in Vietnam.  They told me I was over qualified.  WTF!

I ended up on a Fast Frigate as an Operation Specialist fighting the Cold War in the 70's overseas. Russian Intelligence and Russian Sub hunting. 

The Pledge of Allefiance should be mandatory if you are a citizen of the United States.  Move if you dont want to be.

Originally posted by outfctrl

Originally posted by Enigma

having pride in your own country is a healthy and normal thing to have. You should be happy where you live. However, being forced to recite a pledge ...and especially for children who really do not know what the words mean makes very little sense to me. It's like chanting an anthem you know nothing of.

Also, America is about free choices and people should be free to decide if they want to do the pledge or not....no permission sleep needed. When you force people to do the pledge, then you loose the main focus of why America is America in the first place.

When my number came up for the draft in 1969, I had to report in.  There was no free choice.  They let me out of the draft because of hardship.  I felt so bad, I joined the Navy and requested a river boat in Vietnam.  They told me I was over qualified.  WTF!

I ended up on a Fast Frigate as an Operation Specialist fighting the Cold War in the 70's overseas. Russian Intelligence and Russian Sub hunting. 

The Pledge of Allefiance should be mandatory if you are a citizen of the United States.  Move if you dont want to be.

Truly the land of the free.

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

You take the good and the bad.  Last I checked the pledge doesn't say anything about being thankful for the poor or criminal element in your country=)   And the comparison to Nazi Germany or some regime is a cry of the insane.   Calling us sheep is just insulting and immature.  If the US wanted to take over the world, I'd think we would've conquered our continent by now at least=)   We say a pledge to be thankful for our country, all the good people in it and the freedoms we have.  If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

The entire premise for lack of FREEDOM would make sense if we were NOW forcing people to say the pledge where we weren't before.   We were always forced to do it, much like you're forced to do a lot of things in life.  Its not even forcing you to say something bad or commit an evil act.  The choice to opt out is sad.  Whats next?  Opt out of a test you don't agree with?  Opt out of a class you don't like?  Opt out of the SATs because you don't agree with the PREMISE?   Opt out of taxes too?  I guess you can opt out.  Become a bum or go on welfare and live off the rest of us.  Or just move out of the country.  Theres your opting out=)  I couldn't choose to do much of anything in school thinking back.  You did what you were told and kids listened.   When my parents were in school you sure as hell were forced to do what you were told.   Now kids don't give a shit, because they don't have to.  Whats the school going to do, kick you out?   Plenty of kids would love that.   More time on the internet to research how much life sucks right=)   Entire generations of spoiled brats who can't deal with someone telling them no.   We're bringing up a very weak willed generation it seems and I'm only in my late 30s and can see it.

But this is MA were talking about here.  LIB central.  Its no surprise.  

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

It's not an absolute. By pleding my allegience I'm not saying "this country is 100% perfect no matter what;" rather, I'm weighing what is good and what is bad and find that the majority of what I find in the country is good. By pledging my allegience to the country, I'm showing my gratitude for the good things it offers and am turning my cheek to things such as crime and etc. If you do not understand this, then you likely do not understand why you would be perceived as rude if you don't thank people for gifts at your birthday party, or if you don't tip waiters and waitresses at restaurants. These are things that, in theory, should stem from your own politeness, yet they're really mandatory customs that you must do. You don't not do them, you do them anyway, even if you disagree with them...because realistically, you are thankful for your gifts, and you do appreciate the service you've been given.

The pledge is the same. You're given freedom and a nice place to live, be educated, and get a job, and you pledge your allegience to show your gratitude. Ultimately that pledge is meant to come from your own generosity, yet it's more a mandatory custom.

That doesn't mean that having that be a mandatory custom is correct, it's just how it is. Your status as a person is how you choose to respond to that. Since I am loyal to my country, since I'm grateful for service provided by waiters and waitresses, and since I'm grateful for the fact that people went out of their way to think of me and get me gifts on my birthday, I show my gratitude in all these situations -- even if it is only because of mandatory custom; because deep at heart, I'm not rude and selfish.

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

It's not an absolute. By pleding my allegience I'm not saying "this country is 100% perfect no matter what;" rather, I'm weighing what is good and what is bad and find that the majority of what I find in the country is good. By pledging my allegience to the country, I'm showing my gratitude for the good things it offers and am turning my cheek to things such as crime and etc. If you do not understand this, then you likely do not understand why you would be perceived as rude if you don't thank people for gifts at your birthday party, or if you don't tip waiters and waitresses at restaurants. These are things that, in theory, should stem from your own politeness, yet they're really mandatory customs that you must do. You don't not do them, you do them anyway, even if you disagree with them...because realistically, you are thankful for your gifts, and you do appreciate the service you've been given.

The pledge is the same. You're given freedom and a nice place to live, be educated, and get a job, and you pledge your allegience to show your gratitude. Ultimately that pledge is meant to come from your own generosity, yet it's more a mandatory custom.

That doesn't mean that having that be a mandatory custom is correct, it's just how it is. Your status as a person is how you choose to respond to that. Since I am loyal to my country, since I'm grateful for service provided by waiters and waitresses, and since I'm grateful for the fact that people went out of their way to think of me and get me gifts on my birthday, I show my gratitude in all these situations -- even if it is only because of mandatory custom; because deep at heart, I'm not rude and selfish.

I don't actually see any parallel with being grateful for a gift. the parallel would be to be thankful to your country when someone gives you a gift. Which i doubt you'd do. If someone gives something to me i will thank him , he's a person and is the one who has the given the gift. He's not an abstract concept . And the same applies with the waitresses.

My concern is about a lack of logic behind pledging your allegiance as a gratitude to be living somewhere. If i'm grateful towards someone i will thank him. If i'm grateful towards a political party it will get my vote. The links are quite simple and straight forward. A country doesn't act , it is merely an "idea" , the country doesn't do anything for you , people do , politicians do , etc. 

PS: if you want to pledge your allegiance because it makes you feel better. Sure , why not. But i am however concerned about the fact such a "ceremony" is legally mendatory or even a mendatory custom.

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

You take the good and the bad.  Last I checked the pledge doesn't say anything about being thankful for the poor or criminal element in your country=)   And the comparison to Nazi Germany or some regime is a cry of the insane.   Calling us sheep is just insulting and immature.  If the US wanted to take over the world, I'd think we would've conquered our continent by now at least=)   We say a pledge to be thankful for our country, all the good people in it and the freedoms we have.  If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

The entire premise for lack of FREEDOM would make sense if we were NOW forcing people to say the pledge where we weren't before.   We were always forced to do it, much like you're forced to do a lot of things in life.  Its not even forcing you to say something bad or commit an evil act.  The choice to opt out is sad.  Whats next?  Opt out of a test you don't agree with?  Opt out of a class you don't like?  Opt out of the SATs because you don't agree with the PREMISE?   Opt out of taxes too?  I guess you can opt out.  Become a bum or go on welfare and live off the rest of us.  Or just move out of the country.  Theres your opting out=)  I couldn't choose to do much of anything in school thinking back.  You did what you were told and kids listened.   When my parents were in school you sure as hell were forced to do what you were told.   Now kids don't give a shit, because they don't have to.  Whats the school going to do, kick you out?   Plenty of kids would love that.   More time on the internet to research how much life sucks right=)   Entire generations of spoiled brats who can't deal with someone telling them no.   We're bringing up a very weak willed generation it seems and I'm only in my late 30s and can see it.

But this is MA were talking about here.  LIB central.  Its no surprise.  

1st: this whole topic was created around the issue of being free to opt out of reciting the pledge. Therefor freedom is the issue. Well not the only one, Nationalism is also an issue.

2nd:You could opt out of a test if you want. you will just fail it .

3rd: Classes are , here at least, only mendatory until the age of 18 and for a good reason. To educate people . What is the purpose of forcing people to pledge their allegiance? To show their gratitude? Good to know people need to be forced to show their grattitude. Seems lovely!

4th: Taxes have their purpose as well unlike the pledge.

5th: And yes moving out of the country is a solution. But that doesn't solve the issue now does it? 

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

You take the good and the bad.  Last I checked the pledge doesn't say anything about being thankful for the poor or criminal element in your country=)   And the comparison to Nazi Germany or some regime is a cry of the insane.   Calling us sheep is just insulting and immature.  If the US wanted to take over the world, I'd think we would've conquered our continent by now at least=)   We say a pledge to be thankful for our country, all the good people in it and the freedoms we have.  If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

The entire premise for lack of FREEDOM would make sense if we were NOW forcing people to say the pledge where we weren't before.   We were always forced to do it, much like you're forced to do a lot of things in life.  Its not even forcing you to say something bad or commit an evil act.  The choice to opt out is sad.  Whats next?  Opt out of a test you don't agree with?  Opt out of a class you don't like?  Opt out of the SATs because you don't agree with the PREMISE?   Opt out of taxes too?  I guess you can opt out.  Become a bum or go on welfare and live off the rest of us.  Or just move out of the country.  Theres your opting out=)  I couldn't choose to do much of anything in school thinking back.  You did what you were told and kids listened.   When my parents were in school you sure as hell were forced to do what you were told.   Now kids don't give a shit, because they don't have to.  Whats the school going to do, kick you out?   Plenty of kids would love that.   More time on the internet to research how much life sucks right=)   Entire generations of spoiled brats who can't deal with someone telling them no.   We're bringing up a very weak willed generation it seems and I'm only in my late 30s and can see it.

But this is MA were talking about here.  LIB central.  Its no surprise.  

1st: this whole topic was created around the issue of being free to opt out of reciting the pledge. Therefor freedom is the issue. Well not the only one, Nationalism is also an issue.

2nd:You could opt out of a test if you want. you will just fail it .

3rd: Classes are , here at least, only mendatory until the age of 18 and for a good reason. To educate people . What is the purpose of forcing people to pledge their allegiance? To show their gratitude? Good to know people need to be forced to show their grattitude. Seems lovely!

4th: Taxes have their purpose as well unlike the pledge.

5th: And yes moving out of the country is a solution. But that doesn't solve the issue now does it? 

And here's the root.  Its NOT an issue.  VERY few people have any sort of problem with the pledge.  Its mostly extreme Leftists and their anti-religious agenda with the under GOD part.  And even that was never an issue until recently.  You just don't say ""under God", which nobody cares if you say or not.  Nationalism is also not a problem for the vast majority.  People generally like living here, so being proud of living here isn't a problem and acknowledging it with a pledge doesn't really incite anyone into anger, unless you're a Leftist.  Its the extreme Leftists who have a problem, because go figure, they apparently hate it here and want to change us into socialist EU.  To me, you want to be like EU, go move there.   

Using your line of logic, why should classes be mandatory?  Isn't that your freedom being taken away?   You should be free to be stupid shouldn't you?   You're forced to do lots of things at your workplace you probably don't want to do.  Isn't that your freedoms being stripped away?

You know what, a class of kids saying the pledge IS lovely.  A stadium of people singing the national anthem is also a lovely sight to behold....unless you're Leftist.  Then its 1000s of robots reciting an evil pledge to evil america.   Besides the under god part which hurts poor atheists feelings, what exactly about the pledge is so darn insulting?  I know I know...pledging loyalty to a nation and the idea of Freedom and Justice is like being a Nazi, because no one should be loyal to anything except themselves=)  

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Josher

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

You take the good and the bad.  Last I checked the pledge doesn't say anything about being thankful for the poor or criminal element in your country=)   And the comparison to Nazi Germany or some regime is a cry of the insane.   Calling us sheep is just insulting and immature.  If the US wanted to take over the world, I'd think we would've conquered our continent by now at least=)   We say a pledge to be thankful for our country, all the good people in it and the freedoms we have.  If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

The entire premise for lack of FREEDOM would make sense if we were NOW forcing people to say the pledge where we weren't before.   We were always forced to do it, much like you're forced to do a lot of things in life.  Its not even forcing you to say something bad or commit an evil act.  The choice to opt out is sad.  Whats next?  Opt out of a test you don't agree with?  Opt out of a class you don't like?  Opt out of the SATs because you don't agree with the PREMISE?   Opt out of taxes too?  I guess you can opt out.  Become a bum or go on welfare and live off the rest of us.  Or just move out of the country.  Theres your opting out=)  I couldn't choose to do much of anything in school thinking back.  You did what you were told and kids listened.   When my parents were in school you sure as hell were forced to do what you were told.   Now kids don't give a shit, because they don't have to.  Whats the school going to do, kick you out?   Plenty of kids would love that.   More time on the internet to research how much life sucks right=)   Entire generations of spoiled brats who can't deal with someone telling them no.   We're bringing up a very weak willed generation it seems and I'm only in my late 30s and can see it.

But this is MA were talking about here.  LIB central.  Its no surprise.  

1st: this whole topic was created around the issue of being free to opt out of reciting the pledge. Therefor freedom is the issue. Well not the only one, Nationalism is also an issue.

2nd:You could opt out of a test if you want. you will just fail it .

3rd: Classes are , here at least, only mendatory until the age of 18 and for a good reason. To educate people . What is the purpose of forcing people to pledge their allegiance? To show their gratitude? Good to know people need to be forced to show their grattitude. Seems lovely!

4th: Taxes have their purpose as well unlike the pledge.

5th: And yes moving out of the country is a solution. But that doesn't solve the issue now does it? 

And here's the root.  Its NOT an issue.  VERY few people have any sort of problem with the pledge.  Its mostly extreme Leftists and their anti-religious agenda with the under GOD part.  And even that was never an issue until recently.  You just don't say ""under God", which nobody cares if you say or not.  Nationalism is also not a problem for the vast majority.  People generally like living here, so being proud of living here isn't a problem and acknowledging it with a pledge doesn't really incite anyone into anger, unless you're a Leftist.  Its the extreme Leftists who have a problem, because go figure, they apparently hate it here and want to change us into socialist EU.  To me, you want to be like EU, go move there.   

Using your line of logic, why should classes be mandatory?  Isn't that your freedom being taken away?   You should be free to be stupid shouldn't you?   You're forced to do lots of things at your workplace you probably don't want to do.  Isn't that your freedoms being stripped away?

You know what, a class of kids saying the pledge IS lovely.  A stadium of people singing the national anthem is also a lovely sight to behold....unless you're Leftist.  Then its 1000s of robots reciting an evil pledge to evil america.   Besides the under god part which hurts poor atheists feelings, what exactly about the pledge is so darn insulting?  I know I know...pledging loyalty to a nation and the idea of Freedom and Justice is like being a Nazi, because no one should be loyal to anything except themselves=)  

And here is a prime example of the "-ist" generalizations QQ from Josher.

As to the highlighted portion, it specifically violates the First Amendment of the Constitution's Freedom of Religion.  You might wanna look it up sometime.

Originally posted by Josher

And here's the root.  Its NOT an issue.  VERY few people have any sort of problem with the pledge.  Its mostly extreme Leftists and their anti-religious agenda with the under GOD part.  And even that was never an issue until recently.  You just don't say ""under God", which nobody cares if you say or not.  Nationalism is also not a problem for the vast majority.  People generally like living here, so being proud of living here isn't a problem and acknowledging it with a pledge doesn't really incite anyone into anger, unless you're a Leftist.  Its the extreme Leftists who have a problem, because go figure, they apparently hate it here and want to change us into socialist EU.  To me, you want to be like EU, go move there.   

Using your line of logic, why should classes be mandatory?  Isn't that your freedom being taken away?   You should be free to be stupid shouldn't you?   You're forced to do lots of things at your workplace you probably don't want to do.  Isn't that your freedoms being stripped away?

You know what, a class of kids saying the pledge IS lovely.  A stadium of people singing the national anthem is also a lovely sight to behold....unless you're Leftist.  Then its 1000s of robots reciting an evil pledge to evil america.   Besides the under god part which hurts poor atheists feelings, what exactly about the pledge is so darn insulting?  I know I know...pledging loyalty to a nation and the idea of Freedom and Justice is like being a Nazi, because no one should be loyal to anything except themselves=)  

Ironically you're even failing at using my line of logic. Didn't it occur to you i used "usefulness" as an argument? Your pledge is beyond useless while education is not.

And you do realize there is a world of difference betwene pledging your allegiance and singing an anthem? You pledge your allegiance and thus basically submit yourself to your country's will . How does singing the anthem imply anything near that?

And i fail to see how a class saying the pledge is lovely. Maybe it's me missing it , but a class basically saying they are serving their country while there is no way they, as children, can serve their country in a democracy sounds beyond silly to me.

Additionally your hatred towards a certain political affiliation combined with your love of the pledge only shows me right.

" I know I know...pledging loyalty to a nation and the idea of Freedom and Justice is like being a Nazi, because no one should be loyal to anything except themselves=)  "

forcing someone to pledge his loyalty to the idea of freedom. Am i the only one who can see the irony in that?

No , you should only be loyal to things that make sense. Being loyal to a country means literally nothing. It is an idea created to make people more Patriotic and Nationalistic. It is actually brainwashing to create nationalism. Which is wrong. If one feels compelled to pledge his allegiance sure, but it should have NEVER been mendatory to such an extend it became a bad habit.

EDIT: additionally , where did i state it means being like a Nazi. I merely pointed to the fact these habits are one of the known characteristics of Totalitarian regimes relying on Nationalism. You need more to be a nazi , thats for sure, a lot more. But that doesn't change the fact this brings your country closer to those Totalitarian states than any possible socialist economic policy.

It is funny how i often see on the internet how right winged americans link socialism with nazism because it was the "National Socialist" party. But what about that "National" part eh? If anything it is that part which caused the most damage.

Generals, as long as you see being Patriotic or showing pride in one's nation as something "wrong" there no point in discussing any of this anymore, because theres no justification possible anyone could provide that would change how you feel.  So this discussion is basically done.  We as in the US, think being patriotic is a good thing so saying a pledge is also a good thing.  If thats not enough value or isn't useful enough for you, good day.  

By the way I only hate EXTREME leftists, much like I hate extremist terrorists.  Both want to change our way of life.  One uses death and the other wants to strip away everything that makes us who we are=) 

To turn your nose up at the country that ALLOWS you the freedom to turn your nose up is whats ironic.  The only people who would feel forced to say the pledge are those who really don't understand why we say it at all....mostly non Americans or those who hate the country.  To both, we don't care what you think.

Its like those who burn the flag as a statement.  Its ironic your'e burning the thing that represents the freedom you're protesting. 

Originally posted by Josher

Generals, as long as you see being Patriotic or showing pride in one's nation as something "wrong" there no point in discussing any of this anymore, because theres no justification possible anyone could provide that would change how you feel.  So this discussion is basically done.  We as in the US, think being patriotic is a good thing so saying a pledge is also a good thing.  If thats not enough value or isn't useful enough for you, good day.  

By the way I only hate EXTREME leftists, much like I hate extremist terrorists.  Both want to change our way of life.  One uses death and the other wants to strip away everything that makes us who we are=) 

To turn your nose up at the country that ALLOWS you the freedom to turn your nose up is whats ironic.  The only people who would feel forced to say the pledge are those who really don't understand why we say it at all....mostly non Americans or those who hate the country.  To both, we don't care what you think.

Its like those who burn the flag as a statement.  Its ironic your'e burning the thing that represents the freedom you're protesting. 

It is not a matter of patriotism at all. I have nothing against patriotism but this is a step further than patriotism. You can love your country without thinking children being forced to pledge their allegiance is right.

So what now?

Land of freedom or land of "do the pledge everyday or be socially expelled and considered a communist/traitor/terrorist"?

I live in a country with as much if not more freedom than the usa and I sure as hell don't need to prove it everyday nor was I forced to as a kid.

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Josher

Generals, as long as you see being Patriotic or showing pride in one's nation as something "wrong" there no point in discussing any of this anymore, because theres no justification possible anyone could provide that would change how you feel.  So this discussion is basically done.  We as in the US, think being patriotic is a good thing so saying a pledge is also a good thing.  If thats not enough value or isn't useful enough for you, good day.  

By the way I only hate EXTREME leftists, much like I hate extremist terrorists.  Both want to change our way of life.  One uses death and the other wants to strip away everything that makes us who we are=) 

To turn your nose up at the country that ALLOWS you the freedom to turn your nose up is whats ironic.  The only people who would feel forced to say the pledge are those who really don't understand why we say it at all....mostly non Americans or those who hate the country.  To both, we don't care what you think.

Its like those who burn the flag as a statement.  Its ironic your'e burning the thing that represents the freedom you're protesting. 

It is not a matter of patriotism at all. I have nothing against patriotism but this is a step further than patriotism. You can love your country without thinking children being forced to pledge their allegiance is right.

Children are children. They don't have free will. If they did, they would not go to school, and they would eat candy for dinner every night. You are forcing them not to say the pledge, or forcing them to say the pledge.

Originally posted by Forumfall

So what now?

Land of freedom or land of "do the pledge everyday or be socially expelled and considered a communist/traitor/terrorist"?

I live in a country with as much if not more freedom than the usa and I sure as hell don't need to prove it everyday nor was I forced to as a kid.

That would only apply, IMO, if you were forced to say the pledge as an adult, which you are not.

Originally posted by Josher

 

By the way I only hate Social Conservatives, much like I hate extremist terrorists.  Both want to change our way of life.  One uses death and the other wants to strip away everything that makes us who we are=) 

There, I fixed that for you to be MUCH more truthful with the highlighted phrase.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by Josher

Generals, as long as you see being Patriotic or showing pride in one's nation as something "wrong" there no point in discussing any of this anymore, because theres no justification possible anyone could provide that would change how you feel.  So this discussion is basically done.  We as in the US, think being patriotic is a good thing so saying a pledge is also a good thing.  If thats not enough value or isn't useful enough for you, good day.  

By the way I only hate EXTREME leftists, much like I hate extremist terrorists.  Both want to change our way of life.  One uses death and the other wants to strip away everything that makes us who we are=) 

To turn your nose up at the country that ALLOWS you the freedom to turn your nose up is whats ironic.  The only people who would feel forced to say the pledge are those who really don't understand why we say it at all....mostly non Americans or those who hate the country.  To both, we don't care what you think.

Its like those who burn the flag as a statement.  Its ironic your'e burning the thing that represents the freedom you're protesting. 

It is not a matter of patriotism at all. I have nothing against patriotism but this is a step further than patriotism. You can love your country without thinking children being forced to pledge their allegiance is right.

 

Children are children. They don't have free will. If they did, they would not go to school, and they would eat candy for dinner every night. You are forcing them not to say the pledge, or forcing them to say the pledge.

Or make it optional like many extra-curriculum activities? Back at my school you could attend to loads of stuff optionally. If people want to do it they will. or if their parents feel they should do it they will do it. But it's not up to the state to decide whether you should be a nationalist or not. Unless you're in favor of nationalist states.

I'd even add to it that Nationalism is the best way for a state to control its population. A socialist wants to controll your wallet, a social conservative wants to controll your morality and a Nationalist wants to controll you.

Though i have to add. I do fully realize that there still is a difference between an average american and average North Korean (eg) Nationalism wise. It's still a big leap away from it. But i still believe it is too much nationalism nonetheless.

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

Originally posted by zchmrkenhoff

Originally posted by generals3

If you need a pledge of allegiance for your people to uphold the law something went wrong somewhere. Respecting the law is common sense. A pledge of allegiance seems totally unnecessary.

I agree.

And being grateful? You shouldn't be grateful to an abstract concept. You're part of that same country which means you're grateful to yourself? Being grateful to jesus if you believe he gave you something, sure why not. But grateful to a country?

I'm grateful to an abstract concept. The USA allows me to live without having to suffer under a tyranny or be a slave. I'm grateful for the fact that I'm free.

If I was a persecuted individual, for all of my life having suffered under tyranny and oppression, and found a way to seek refuge in America and live there in freedom, then I would consider myself grateful to have found a free place, and would pledge my allegience to the nation that offers me that freedom.

Just as one doesn't have to be old and dying to appreciate life and their ancestry and realize the limited value of possessions, so can one born into a free nation appreciate the free environment in which they reside.

I don't agree with the necessity of making your citizens pledge their allegience to the country, yet when it is asked of me, I will think of those things that America does for me, and pledge my allegience to the nation. After all, the country does have my allegience...and I have no problem pledging it.

I totally understand the premise of being happy to live somewhere and so forth. But i still do not understand the concept to thank an abstract concept for that situation. You're basically showing your gratitude towards everything in your country, including everything you hate about it (criminals, etc.) . That makes little sense to me.

If my government would pass a new bill i'd like i'd thank the government for it. If my government would decide to oppress me i'd hate my government for it. And only in a country where the government = the country i'd hate/love the country (refering to the government) for certain situations. But in democracies that makes little sense , the government merely represents the people , it isn't advertised as being the country . That is concept used by centralized governments which control everything.

It's not an absolute. By pleding my allegience I'm not saying "this country is 100% perfect no matter what;" rather, I'm weighing what is good and what is bad and find that the majority of what I find in the country is good. By pledging my allegience to the country, I'm showing my gratitude for the good things it offers and am turning my cheek to things such as crime and etc. If you do not understand this, then you likely do not understand why you would be perceived as rude if you don't thank people for gifts at your birthday party, or if you don't tip waiters and waitresses at restaurants. These are things that, in theory, should stem from your own politeness, yet they're really mandatory customs that you must do. You don't not do them, you do them anyway, even if you disagree with them...because realistically, you are thankful for your gifts, and you do appreciate the service you've been given.

The pledge is the same. You're given freedom and a nice place to live, be educated, and get a job, and you pledge your allegience to show your gratitude. Ultimately that pledge is meant to come from your own generosity, yet it's more a mandatory custom.

That doesn't mean that having that be a mandatory custom is correct, it's just how it is. Your status as a person is how you choose to respond to that. Since I am loyal to my country, since I'm grateful for service provided by waiters and waitresses, and since I'm grateful for the fact that people went out of their way to think of me and get me gifts on my birthday, I show my gratitude in all these situations -- even if it is only because of mandatory custom; because deep at heart, I'm not rude and selfish.

I don't actually see any parallel with being grateful for a gift. the parallel would be to be thankful to your country when someone gives you a gift. Which i doubt you'd do. If someone gives something to me i will thank him , he's a person and is the one who has the given the gift. He's not an abstract concept . And the same applies with the waitresses. When I pledge allegience, I am giving my thanks for all the soldiers who helped defeat a Japanese Empire during the Second World War...I am honoring all of the soldiers in the Middle East now who are defending our civilians and affairs from unreasonable hostiles. I am appreciating a government that ensures me a life of freedom and which does not rule over me tyrannically. When I pledge allegience, I am honoring the fact that I live in a country where I'm not a slave.

Thanking my country for all of these things therefore is the exact same as tipping a waitress for her service or someone who gives me a gift.

My concern is about a lack of logic behind pledging your allegiance as a gratitude to be living somewhere. If i'm grateful towards someone i will thank him. If i'm grateful towards a political party it will get my vote. The links are quite simple and straight forward. A country doesn't act , it is merely an "idea" , the country doesn't do anything for you , people do , politicians do , etc. 

A country isn't merely an idea, as it represents much more. A country is personified by its fighting soldiers, who defend all of us from unreasonable terrorists. A country is personified by its men in government, who alllow me to live freely. A country is all of these things and more, united, all vital aspects which combined constitute the USA.  Pledging my allegience to America isn't pledging allegience to some vacant concept, but to all of these things which together make the USA a country.

If someone were to walk up to one of our soldiers and look at the flag which adorns his uniform, what flag does it show? It shows the flag of America, because our soldiers are representing it. By pledging my allegience to America, such a person has my loyalty and thanks by default, as such a person is America.

PS: if you want to pledge your allegiance because it makes you feel better. Sure , why not. But i am however concerned about the fact such a "ceremony" is legally mendatory or even a mendatory custom.

If you are asked to pledge your allegience to America, and you don't, then I'm going to think of you as someone who is both rude and disloyal to the country. If you are loyal to the country, you would have no problem rising to pledge your allegience to it, even if you do disagree with the process.

But yes: the mandatory custom of having us pledge our allegience is wrong.