Originally posted by travamars

The reason i paid for previous 'same olds' was becuase they claimed to be something new and differant. I've now learned not to believe the constant BS that gets thrown around before the game comes out. I wont be falling for that with rift.

Cyphers you just continue to call everybody 'burned out' and 'bored' and maybe you'll convince others to spend their money. You've repeated that same statement in EVERY post you've made and if thats the only excuse you can come up with as to why some people dont like the game you need to educate yourself.

Or maybe you should start paying attention to the other things I said as well, namely that I repeatedly stated that not everybody who dislikes an MMO game is burnt out, that such claim would be a foolish and weak argument to make.

And I stated repeatedly and extensively that there's nothing wrong with liking or disliking a game and posting why, that opinions and tastes differ.

But if I see people projecting unrealistic expectations and hopes on every new MMORPG, people that claim to be bored with MMO's and MMO mechanics, and then the same people bashing as good as each and every new MMORPG for being the 'same old same old' while some of these same people then crawl back to their 'same old' current MMO's that they don't enjoy that immensely anymore and while a lot of these MMO gamers completely ignore the really different MMO's that are available at the same time, then yes, I've no trouble suspecting those people of MMO burnout, and calling it like it is.

If you think you don't fit the picture, no reason for you to reflect about it, but if someone recognises several symptoms - as in finding little joy anymore in current and new MMO's and being generally bored and indifferent with them - then I recommend taking a long look in the mirror and ponder whether it isn't time to let MMO's as a genre rest for a while, while doing other more enjoyable things. Move on, don't keep stuck in a rut or be that guy/girl that can do nothing but complaining and whining about stuff, take action, break your patterns. Etc

Originally posted by Zeroxin

I think Cyphers is just excited to have something to talk about hehe. I know 'cos I'm also quite enjoying all the controversy.

Sshhh!

It was a slow two days

edit: wtf...  everybody should report any 'Dagege' spam advertisement post they see, the guy has chosen a good time, most forum mods will be unavailable at this time of day, I guess.

I did not get the feeling that angry mobs of people were going to storm Trion at all. What I got was that there were people who had expectations that weren't met. I think the expectations were unfounded based on everything I read prior to playing the beta. Obviously this is a little subjective, hence the 'I think'.

One thing I'm sure of is the people who want to complain certainly made more threads and had more responses than the people without complaints...but that's pretty standard I guess.

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Zeroxin

I think Cyphers is just excited to have something to talk about hehe. I know 'cos I'm also quite enjoying all the controversy.

No, he is just blindly defending a game he some how has sold his loyalties to like many an average fanboy. He says he picks apart their arguments, but he never does. His mindset is "I am right, you are wrong, rift is the best mmorpg on the planet, end of story". If you were to actually present an argument, he will ignore it and reply with some off hand comment while pretending he just picked apart whatever it is you presented him with.

Its just insane really! 

 

The majority of posters I have seen, especially on the rift website and their beta forums, criticizes the same things. There is a general census of disappointment in everything else except the rifts and class system, but he just refuses to accept its there and that he is the minority. 

 

No one has to reinvent the wheel to please a large audience, but you DO have to make sure whatever "wheel" you go with is going to be high quality and better than the previous Wheels...if not then theres no point in the new wheel!

I'm not sure about Cyphers but I think you've got the I am right you are wrong attitude down pat.

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Zeroxin

I think Cyphers is just excited to have something to talk about hehe. I know 'cos I'm also quite enjoying all the controversy.

No, he is just blindly defending a game he some how has sold his loyalties to like many an average fanboy. He says he picks apart their arguments, but he never does. His mindset is "I am right, you are wrong, rift is the best mmorpg on the planet, end of story". If you were to actually present an argument, he will ignore it and reply with some off hand comment while pretending he just picked apart whatever it is you presented him with.

Its just insane really! 

 

The majority of posters I have seen, especially on the rift website and their beta forums, criticizes the same things. There is a general census of disappointment in everything else except the rifts and class system, but he just refuses to accept its there and that he is the minority. 

 

No one has to reinvent the wheel to please a large audience, but you DO have to make sure whatever "wheel" you go with is going to be high quality and better than the previous Wheels...if not then theres no point in the new wheel!

I have been active on Rift forums for long and i would say you are overreacting as usual.  Yes there is critcism and there should be but you always try to paint a very gloomy picture which is not true. If anything forums are mostly positive and excited for beta 3 event. From where i see, you are in minority and minority is always more vocal.

All players who are looking forward to RIFT want it to improve but atleast they are honest in their intentions. You not so much. So far this wheel is very high quality for a CB in comparison to AOC, WAR etc.

I doubt it if you havent seen all the negative feedback on the same issues. Generally people want to like the game, but are dissapointed about a consistent set of elements found in Rift. I have been with the forums since June. You? Did you see the beta forums? The feedback about the problems seen in rift were astounding in the beta forums? This is why I doubt your claim.

Are you trying to assume my intentions? Feel free to look through my post history and you will find  a lot of pro Rift posts prior to beta, and after the beta I have consistently and truthfully explained the problems as I saw it. No game is perfect, but just because I am not going into denial like some here about the problems, I get branded a hater? thats illogical. 

We are not the minority. This is a fact! Again if the beta forums were open you would see this. I have not denied the areas where Rift does good, but dont expect me to stay silent when fanboys attack those honest enough to talk about the shortcomings of Rift. 

The closed beta, as stated by Abigale, was part promotional. It was a marketing strategy, thus the VIP key events and beta hype. Just because a game is in closed beta doesnt mean it gets special treatment. Why? Because if you know anything about how development works, you would know that once you hit the beta milestone, what you see is set in stone. Everything else is just tweaks and bug fixes. The reason you think its solid is because the features are fairly barebone and copy n pasted except for their "hooks", which are the Rift and Class systems. Add the fact they are using a dated  engine with lots of technical support attached to it and of course its not going to have a lot of problems. Problems only happen when you try to do something radically new or switch to an engine that the developers will have problems with. 

Its almost impossible to have a civil conversation and a well reasoned dialog with fanboys. 

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Zeroxin

I think Cyphers is just excited to have something to talk about hehe. I know 'cos I'm also quite enjoying all the controversy.

No, he is just blindly defending a game he some how has sold his loyalties to like many an average fanboy. He says he picks apart their arguments, but he never does. His mindset is "I am right, you are wrong, rift is the best mmorpg on the planet, end of story". If you were to actually present an argument, he will ignore it and reply with some off hand comment while pretending he just picked apart whatever it is you presented him with.

Its just insane really! 

 

The majority of posters I have seen, especially on the rift website and their beta forums, criticizes the same things. There is a general census of disappointment in everything else except the rifts and class system, but he just refuses to accept its there and that he is the minority. 

 

No one has to reinvent the wheel to please a large audience, but you DO have to make sure whatever "wheel" you go with is going to be high quality and better than the previous Wheels...if not then theres no point in the new wheel!

I have been active on Rift forums for long and i would say you are overreacting as usual.  Yes there is critcism and there should be but you always try to paint a very gloomy picture which is not true. If anything forums are mostly positive and excited for beta 3 event. From where i see, you are in minority and minority is always more vocal.

All players who are looking forward to RIFT want it to improve but atleast they are honest in their intentions. You not so much. So far this wheel is very high quality for a CB in comparison to AOC, WAR etc.

 

I doubt it if you havent seen all the negative feedback on the same issues. Generally people want to like the game, but are dissapointed about a consistent set of elements found in Rift. I have been with the forums since June. You? Did you see the beta forums? The feedback about the problems seen in rift were astounding in the beta forums? This is why I doubt your claim.

Are you trying to assume my intentions? Feel free to look through my post history and you will find  a lot of pro Rift posts prior to beta, and after the beta I have consistently and truthfully explained the problems as I saw it. No game is perfect, but just because I am not going into denial like some here about the problems, I get branded a hater? thats illogical. 

We are not the minority. This is a fact! Again if the beta forums were open you would see this. I have not denied the areas where Rift does good, but dont expect me to stay silent when fanboys attack those honest enough to talk about the shortcomings of Rift. 

The closed beta, as stated by Abigale, was part promotional. It was a marketing strategy, thus the VIP key events and beta hype. Just because a game is in closed beta doesnt mean it gets special treatment. Why? Because if you know anything about how development works, you would know that once you hit the beta milestone, what you see is set in stone. Everything else is just tweaks and bug fixes. The reason you think its solid is because the features are fairly barebone and copy n pasted except for their "hooks", which are the Rift and Class systems. Add the fact they are using a dated  engine with lots of technical support attached to it and of course its not going to have a lot of problems. Problems only happen when you try to do something radically new or switch to an engine that the developers will have problems with. 

Its almost impossible to have a civil conversation and a well reasoned dialog with fanboys. 

Beta forums are open again so i welcome everyone to see it for themselves and they will realise how much you like to exaggerate everything. And yes i am questioning your intentions because you try to put  a negative spin on everything. And you not being in minority as a FACT..lol please. it is not a fact it is just an opinion.

Strife, angst, rage, anger, politics and offense. All over video games.

Good stuff. Carry on.

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by erickdefores

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Originally posted by elocke

Enjoy your shallow game for a few months until real EPIC feeling games arrive in the guise of SWTOR and GW2.  Until then, I'm quite happy in WoW, Lotro and Darkfall because they do EVERYTHING better than Rift.

Next gen my ass.

I have to laugh at this post. even though its childish whatever you have written i would like to assure you of one thing. SWTOR and GW2 will burn on these forums in the same way. Quote this post, print it and stick it on your wall. There will be so much moaning and crying when these two titles will come out that there won't be enough buckets in the world to hold the tears. I will come and poke you then when you will be defending these titles like a white knight and fighting the trolls with tooth and nail.

GW2 and SWTOR are not innovative in any way. They are like Rift, doing couple of things different but not breaking any barriers or trying to bring any revolution to MMO genre. For all those calling Rift linear, i would love to see there reaction when they will play SWTOR. its going to be priceless.

 You may indeed be right in your pridiction Paradoxy.  But!  I have to wonder if One of the MMORPG.com staff will write a lengthy response in defeance of those games as well? 

Ofcourse they will. What people are misunderstanding here is that the writer is not just defending RIft, its just an overall statement regarding the community and their expectations. These same expectations will bring same amount of hate towards SWTOR and GW2. I can't help but chuckle when someone says 'go play your shallow X MMO, i am waiting for a real MMO like SWTOR and GW2'. They are just setting themselves up for more hurt.

I don't need to stick anything on my wall. Its quite obvious what is going to happen in 2011. ;) i am very excited about GW2 and SWTOR and i have no expectations just like i had none from RIFT. That is why i am capable of enjoying all of these games.

 ^^^^ the nail has been hit squarely on the head..

Ive been trying to say this about GW2,the supposed game that alot of people are looking to as thier MMO saviour,but you've conveyed it alot better than I could.Do I want GW2 and TOR to be great? of course,but having such lofty expectations towards these games will only set you up for dissappointment.

Also,Great article Bill!.

MMOs pick you, you dont pick them. Thats half the reason why people are constantly arguing about these types of games. MMOs are less about the genre and the expectations that come with it and more about personal taste. In fact, id say that a good mmo is one that most closely meets your personal preferences. So how in the hell do you argue about intangibles that vary with the individual? In futility, thats how.... and a bag of popcorn.

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Beta forums are open again so i welcome everyone to see it for themselves and they will realise how much you like to exaggerate everything. And yes i am questioning your intentions because you try to put  a negative spin on everything. And you not being in minority as a FACT..lol please. it is not a fact it is just an opinion.

Prove that I try to put a negative spin on everything! I have been consistent in the 3-4 core areas in which I find Rift lacking. Quests, Crafting, Scale and certain graphical elements. I have also been consistent in saying the rift feature is generally good and can carry the game, as well as liking the class system. So I fail to see any substance in your point. 

The beta forums is still riddled with threads in which the community complains about the same weak links. Did you really not check it out? I recommend the one calling for the game to be delayed by a year (and I agree, its a silly thing to call for), as well as the rate the beta thread. People have for the most part consistently rated quests as being bad, crafting bad, and the scale being smaller than they are used too. 

By some of the interpretative habits of some new fanboys, these people, like myself, automatically get dubbed "haters" or "anti-rift" and to be honest its getting kind of old. 

It is safe to assume that people generally would like Rift to succeed, they would generally like it to be a fun game they enjoy, but at the same can be disappointed in the area's they find weak or alienating. 

Originally posted by Rabenwolf

Originally posted by Paradoxy

Beta forums are open again so i welcome everyone to see it for themselves and they will realise how much you like to exaggerate everything. And yes i am questioning your intentions because you try to put  a negative spin on everything. And you not being in minority as a FACT..lol please. it is not a fact it is just an opinion.

Prove that I try to put a negative spin on everything! I have been consistent in the 3-4 core areas in which I find Rift lacking. Quests, Crafting, Scale and certain graphical elements. I have also been consistent in saying the rift feature is generally good and can carry the game, as well as liking the class system. So I fail to see any substance in your point. 

The beta forums is still riddled with threads in which the community complains about the same weak links. Did you really not check it out? I recommend the one calling for the game to be delayed by a year (and I agree, its a silly thing to call for), as well as the rate the beta thread. People have for the most part consistently rated quests as being bad, crafting bad, and the scale being smaller than they are used too. 

By some of the interpretative habits of some new fanboys, these people, like myself, automatically get dubbed "haters" or "anti-rift" and to be honest its getting kind of old. 

It is safe to assume that people generally would like Rift to succeed, they would generally like it to be a fun game they enjoy, but at the same can be disappointed in the area's they find weak or alienating. 

No one needs to prove anything, and this post is best example. Putting labels on people and calling them fanboys. This is what you do everytime you have nothing better left to say. Sad really. Its really that hard to discuss game without getting personal isn't it?

Beta forums are open and like said everyone can see for themselves.

Rift is a worthy sucsessor to WAR.  Trion marketing however, led players to expect more with that recent trailer hyping Rift as "Next Gen" and defining that to mean that it would change the face of MMOs on the first day of launch.  Maybe the marketing guys are right, but nothing the testers saw in the first 2 beta events would lead the playes to that conclusion.  IMO, Trion would be wiser to downplay the "Next Gen" hype or demonstrate some of it.

Originally posted by MacDeath

Rift is a worthy sucsessor to WAR.  Trion marketing however, led players to expect more with that recent trailer hyping Rift as "Next Gen" and defining that to mean that it would change the face of MMOs on the first day of launch.  Maybe the marketing guys are right, but nothing the testers saw in the first 2 beta events would lead the playes to that conclusion.  IMO, Trion would be wiser to downplay the "Next Gen" hype or demonstrate some of it.

 

That's certainly what got me expecting a little more from RIFT than a clone of those bill mentions.

Trion's hype machine was a tad misleading with the next gen there is absolutely nothing next gen about it even its rifts are basically just WAR's PQ's on a random spawn. It's class system is nothing new either really and is set to be a giant bag of fail on the balance front.

Coupled with all mechanics being tried and trusted its art style being a combo of wow/war/lotro and we have seen it all before its OLD gen not new gen.

Don't get me wrong RIFT seems a solid playable game art style not to my taste so won't be playing it but i wish TRION luck for the sole reason there other project "One Earth" has me very interested.

Rift is an great game.. can't wait for release.. it doesnt do to much to fancy, but what it does is done right and is quite fun..

BloodandAshes.com <- Oceanic based (all welcome) Rift guild

its like this. if ya dont like rifts and only joined the beta to try the game instead of help it. then please step away. the next gen part is actually how they did the rifts and adding mobs. meaning they can do it on the fly with no patchs or anything and they can change how many at any time. Thus allowing them to sell the design to other games. but back to wat i keep seeing. Its simple if ya like the game then play the game. If ya dont like the game then stop bashing it cuz it didnt fill u ur need of an mmo. Sadly No mmo can fill any players need to 100%. what is simply boils down to is are ya having fun or not. for me i had a blast in rift and for sum they didn't. everyone has their own opinion. but dont bash on a game that is actually so far well polished. This is why most of u guys scratch ur heads when mmo's fail. those who dislike the game try and force every1 else to dislike it also just cuz they dont like it. gw2 tera n the other new mmos wont live up to all over ur standards. and dont feed me sum bullshit that it will. u all know ull QQ bout any game. and most of ya are burned out on games which left ya bitter and grumpy. So if ya have fun in the game then you found a game to enjoy for awhile. if ya dont have fun then move on till ya find one if ya ever do. No since in bashing every damn new company that tries. FYI rifts took everything from all mmo's that was good n tossed it in their game with a twist and polished it up. to me their doin good. to the next poster their doin bad. SImply put *fun factor*.

When you're in a restaurant and you receive a steak that is too dry for your taste, you shouldn't expect it to somehow absorb the excess moisture coming from your trap while screaming and kicking at the waiter and cook.

Saying it is too dry for your taste is fine, going all ballistic over something like that isn't going to help.

When I see people screaming and kicking at the direction of Rift, I can't help but figure that they will be disappointed again and again for a long time in the future.

They expect a revolution, they will get a steady evolution. If you can't accept that you'll be disappointed continually and find yourself a bitter old gamerdude at one point, still longing for a revolution to some meaningless ideal when the genre has moved on in its own direction long ago.

That is not to say a lot of stuff in Rift doesn't need improvement, it just won't go the way those people want it to go.

Originally posted by fatboy21007

its like this. if ya dont like rifts and only joined the beta to try the game instead of help it. then please step away. the next gen part is actually how they did the rifts and adding mobs. meaning they can do it on the fly with no patchs or anything and they can change how many at any time. Thus allowing them to sell the design to other games. but back to wat i keep seeing. Its simple if ya like the game then play the game. If ya dont like the game then stop bashing it cuz it didnt fill u ur need of an mmo. Sadly No mmo can fill any players need to 100%. what is simply boils down to is are ya having fun or not. for me i had a blast in rift and for sum they didn't. everyone has their own opinion. but dont bash on a game that is actually so far well polished. This is why most of u guys scratch ur heads when mmo's fail. those who dislike the game try and force every1 else to dislike it also just cuz they dont like it. gw2 tera n the other new mmos wont live up to all over ur standards. and dont feed me sum bullshit that it will. u all know ull QQ bout any game. and most of ya are burned out on games which left ya bitter and grumpy. So if ya have fun in the game then you found a game to enjoy for awhile. if ya dont have fun then move on till ya find one if ya ever do. No since in bashing every damn new company that tries. FYI rifts took everything from all mmo's that was good n tossed it in their game with a twist and polished it up. to me their doin good. to the next poster their doin bad. SImply put *fun factor*.

I had fun in both Beta Events so far and am looking forward to more.  But for me it's EASY to see why some testers felt let down. The words "Next Gen" have different meanings for many people. Those are powerful words and WILL set expectations.  I suspect that Rift IS a next gen game but we haven't seen that yet in the two beta events.  We've seen a very well polished remake of WoW and WAR but in a smaller world with fewer races and only one starter zone per faction. WoW-lite with better graphics.  That is enough for many people but will leave others wondering where the promised game is.  You can say ALL the promise was created in their minds but I think Trion marketing helped to create it.

Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

When you're in a restaurant and you receive a steak that is too dry for your taste, you shouldn't expect it to somehow absorb the excess moisture coming from your trap while screaming and kicking at the waiter and cook.

Saying it is too dry for your taste is fine, going all ballistic over something like that isn't going to help.

 

When I see people screaming and kicking at the direction of Rift, I can't help but figure that they will be disappointed again and again for a long time in the future.

They expect a revolution, they will get a steady evolution. If you can't accept that you'll be disappointed continually and find yourself a bitter old gamerdude at one point, still longing for a revolution to some meaningless ideal when the genre has moved on in its own direction long ago.

 

That is not to say a lot of stuff in Rift doesn't need improvement, it just won't go the way those people want it to go.

If that restaurant customer THOUGHT he had ordered a steak, and the waiter deliverd fish, even if it was VERY good fish, it wasn't what the customer was expecting and that can be quite upsetting.  Now, this was a beta test, we were testers, NOT paying customers...stil it wasn't what many people had been led to expect.

Feel for you bill, but you have got an impossible job. If you slate the game the people who are looking forward to the game will find holes in your logic and call you an idiot, if you praise the game people who are not looking forward to the game or who play other games will slate you and point at problems with the game and call you an idiot for not writing more about them.

From the articles I've read here at mmorpg.com written by yourself and others I must say you have never painted the game to be anything more than it is, neither has trion so I don't understand where all these arguments of "OMG its not a 100% next gen completely new game that will break the mold like you/they said!" come from.

For what its worth I enjoy your articles :)

Rift is what I wanted and expected it to be. I love it.