Originally posted by jaxsundane

We need something else with the effect of a "WOW"?  Because as you have even agreed, that was the last game to bring in a huge influx of new players.  I don't have any issue with WOW but if you are a realist you'd realize that anything that comes out and is highly successful is going to be roundly criticized by many of us here because to bring those new players will take something new, or certainly not something that was done before the last genre.

Right now SWTOR looks like a game that has a reasonable chance to do things on a scale close to what WOw is doing and it's the most trolled new game on the site, critics have died down a bit with alot of the info lately but it was toxic here a few weeks back.

I don't know that I'm really disagreeing with the point of yours or the op though I just wanted to shed a different perspective that the genre is making some strides and is growing, if one feels it needs to explode with an influx of players the size of WOW's playerbase then I can't argue with that it's just not important to me as a player.

Issues that interest me are mmorpg's transition to consoles and (hopefully getting some with a less action oriented design), and alternative payment methods to boost existing revenue streams so that devs can live up to what I was hyped up about on mmorpg's which is ever evolving worlds which is in short supply in too many games.

Well, like or dislike Wow it got more players into the genre. Mostly PvE players so I think there is room for a game doing the same for PvP players as well. TOR might get Bioware fans and more RPG people who don't play MMOs into the genre or not.

But I don't really see the genre grow, few games releasing lately have done well and to me it just seems like the players are jumping games back and forth.

Originally posted by theartist

I concur.

PVE players just weren't satisfied with having Second Life. So they ruined the actual MM aspect of the ORPG.

You can't blame PvE players because PvP generally sucks.A good MMORPG needs both good PvE and PvP to be truly fun. Sadly is DaoC the only game even close and that went downhill a long time ago.

My hopes is that GW2 will get us some fresh blood and new ideas, it is one of the few MMOs that spend a lot of the work on both things from the start.

Most MMOs have always felt like PvP were adding at the last moment as an afterthought. And that is way before second life.

PvP is content.  Why would someone want to roll on a PvE server and only get half the content available in the game.

"that's like nerfing yourself in r/l"

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by theartist

I concur.

PVE players just weren't satisfied with having Second Life. So they ruined the actual MM aspect of the ORPG.

You can't blame PvE players because PvP generally sucks.A good MMORPG needs both good PvE and PvP to be truly fun. Sadly is DaoC the only game even close and that went downhill a long time ago.

My hopes is that GW2 will get us some fresh blood and new ideas, it is one of the few MMOs that spend a lot of the work on both things from the start.

Most MMOs have always felt like PvP were adding at the last moment as an afterthought. And that is way before second life.

I disagree entierly with what you have to say. And find your hyperbole disheartening.

I mean I can understand your opinion on the matter, but it's far from fact. I could list several MMOs with great PVP prior to and post casual-PVE-gutting of the genre. But it's been done a million times before and you've obviously seen that list a number of times considering I see you post on every post.

Player vs player interaction can be more than what you perceive, and it is the only real basis of massive multiplayer. Relying on the chat client alone was bad enough, but now many developers are striving to make it so you don't even have to chat with other players while you tear down blocks of hp.

So that void gets filled with people needlessly trash talking and in general being annoying.

There's never been a PVP heavy game released that's had a 'poor community'. You can be on the losing side and get sore and everyone bicker, but it's not nearly as 'poor' as having a supposed forced comrade of yours in a game setting deny you access to content you feel you need because your gear score is lower than he decides it needs to be.

PVE focus in MMORPGs has ruined the genre.

Originally posted by theartist

PVE focus in MMORPGs has ruined the genre.

*Something you don't personally like has ruined teh genre!!1*

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by theartist

PVE focus in MMORPGs has ruined the genre.

*Something you don't personally like has ruined teh genre!!1*

I like it. I play LotRO, and I like it. It's all it has.

FFXIV is a pretty good example of just pve elements making a game blow.

PS. Learn to type, you're getting sloppy.

Originally posted by theartist

I like it. I play LotRO, and I like it. It's all it has.

FFXIV is a pretty good example of just pve elements making a game blow.

I don't think the PvE elements have anything to do with that.

See: FFXI.

I could as well say "AoC blew because it had PvE and PvP elements. WAR failed because it had too much PvP. Aion failed because it was too PvPvE centric."

You're just conveniently trying to put the blame on something you think is inferior. Very subjective, very inaccurate.

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by theartist

I like it. I play LotRO, and I like it. It's all it has.

FFXIV is a pretty good example of just pve elements making a game blow.

I don't think the PvE elements have anything to do with that.

See: FFXI.

I could as well say "AoC blew because it had PvE and PvP elements. WAR failed because it had too much PvP. Aion failed because it was too PvPvE centric."

You're just conveniently trying to put the blame on something you think is inferior. Very subjective, very inaccurate.

I know you're just trolling, but to play along; FFXI and WAR are on par if anything. So your poor attempt at making a point negates.

To prove my point; what current PVE features do you think can carry over into a real 'next generation game' and not bring it down?

Originally posted by theartist

I know you're just trolling, but to play along; FFXI and WAR are on par if anything. So your poor attempt at making a point negates.

To prove my point; what current PVE features do you think can carry over into a real 'next generation game' and not bring it down?

I'm "trolling" as much as you are. I am defending my view, just like you.

FFXI was a success. WAR was anything but a success. Your subjective opinion of their equality does not make it so in reality.

Your question does not make much sense, but: all of them.

Let me ask you something too: What non-instanced PvP features (as in: something to do with MMORPG's) do you think can carry over into a real next gen game without ruining it? Current Gen PvP is based on gear and level differences if you're not capped; it is not equal nor fair PvP like in FPS or games like DoTA where everyone starts from equal ground. How can this kind of gameplay be successful? How can it be successful without removing the non-skill factors such as gears and levels, and how would the game be any better if these were stripped away from it?

This seems to be the same lamenting that occurred when the Wii started taking off.  Real game machines had more pixels, controllers with buttons that you didn't wave around, etc.  Of course, everyone conveniently forgot that real game machines were for kids...but times change, and many people miss the glory days of their youth.

Were games like DAOC good?  Sure...for the 100,000 or so that played them.  Are games like WoW good?  Sure...for the well over 10,000,000 that play them.

Could I wax poetic about the space combat flight simulator games of old (90s)?  Sure.  I could talk about how people who played those games knew more, played better, etc, etc than the current generation of gamer.  And I certainly miss playing those games.  But the cold, stark reality is that I am in the minority.

You say there are more players playing PvP because of the online FPS. Those are all free games right. Is there any game an FPS paid shooter that can beat WoW ?  I just think that people play free games more because they are free. It does not mean that the same number will play a paid subbed MMOFPS. Just a  thought. Of course that does not mean the players will PvP in an MMORPG. The qualifications for these types of games vary even though there is PvP in MMORPG there are nowhere near the skill required in an FPS like Doom or other multiplayer games of the same caliber. Anyway what I am trying to say is that the thing that keep one playing a MMORPG is not the same as what keeps one playing Borderlands. Also people enjoy different types of PvP I enjoy WoW PvP but not FFA PvP like in Darkfall.

As for the genre growing it might like all inevitable things reached a saturation point where the numbers attrition and gain equal out.  WoW did bring a huge number into the genre although most seem to look at it as a mixed blessing. May be the games are all fighting over the same pool while WoW is the only one who gained other genre players or absolutely new players but at some point the pool has to dry up. 

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by theartist

I know you're just trolling, but to play along; FFXI and WAR are on par if anything. So your poor attempt at making a point negates.

To prove my point; what current PVE features do you think can carry over into a real 'next generation game' and not bring it down?

I'm "trolling" as much as you are. I am defending my view, just like you.

FFXI was a success. WAR was anything but a success. Your subjective opinion of their equality does not make it so in reality.

Your question does not make much sense, but: all of them.

Let me ask you something too: What non-instanced PvP features (as in: something to do with MMORPG's) do you think can carry over into a real next gen game without ruining it? Current Gen PvP is based on gear and level differences if you're not capped; it is not equal nor fair PvP like in FPS or games like DoTA where everyone starts from equal ground. How can this kind of gameplay be successful? How can it be successful without removing the non-skill factors such as gears and levels, and how would the game be any better if these were stripped away from it?

THIS

Exactly how I see it. If I am playing Quake, what matters is my skills, unless my ping is really bad. If I am playing WoW my skill matters little. What matters is my gear.

Originally posted by cheyane

Is there any game an FPS paid shooter that can beat WoW ?

As far as the quality, fairness, and the dependency on outside influence such as levels or equipment go, yes. 99% of them.

But of course we should look at only the player amounts. That's what makes a game good, not the actual mechanics.

I was not making a quality observation he said more people play PvP. I was asking about paid subs so the question was on numbers not quality. If you want to attack me on that please go ahead. Also taking one sentence out of context and then judging my post on that is really underhanded.

Now I'm not even sure if your post was directed to me, since you didn't quote anyone...

Originally posted by unbound55

This seems to be the same lamenting that occurred when the Wii started taking off.  Real game machines had more pixels, controllers with buttons that you didn't wave around, etc.  Of course, everyone conveniently forgot that real game machines were for kids...but times change, and many people miss the glory days of their youth.

 

Were games like DAOC good?  Sure...for the 100,000 or so that played them.  Are games like WoW good?  Sure...for the well over 10,000,000 that play them.

 

Could I wax poetic about the space combat flight simulator games of old (90s)?  Sure.  I could talk about how people who played those games knew more, played better, etc, etc than the current generation of gamer.  And I certainly miss playing those games.  But the cold,  stark reality is that I am in the minority.

 i agree with this statement. the term immersion is what will drive me back into mmo gaming. but to say that the old days or better that a game that embraces  the die hard player more so than the casual gamer is not a realistic point of view. i would enjoy a  new game that is geared toward old style grinding but i dont think for a second that THAT  will be the so called WOW killer. WOW is the STANDARD of current MMO gaming whether we like it or not. BLIZZARD is a well run, well managed company that i have enjoyed many of its games(warcraft, starcraft, diablo etc). i am an old school daoc player who has resisted the urge to play WOW. but i know i am in the minority.

I think what's lacking are niche games. WoW and The old Republic will cover what most people seem to want, but there haven't been a lot of successfull niche games lately. If WoW is a modern Everquest (and I know many will resent that), there is no modern EVE, DAoC, Shadowbane, or even UO. Darkfall and Mortal Online have tried to capture some of the essence of those games, but are very different games in terms of gameplay, in addition to being technical failures.

I don't know if Warhammer Online tried taking the best from DAoC, but they sure failed, and perhaps that discouraged other companies from trying. I see Guild Wars 2, TERA and The Secret World are all trying to take the genre in their own direction, but none of them are even close to trying to build on what the games I mentioned earlier did well.

I'd like to see a company try to make a 3rd person NON-action RPG where territorial combat is front and center. I really believe the market is there, even if it'd be another niche game.

I'll field the shadowbane comment in one, shadowbane showed how pvp could suck. It got better near the end but early on in that game it was just one big gank fest with about 30 people playing clerics to summon people to cities to fund their guilds building projects. By the end of the first three months there were a few servers that were run completely by one big guild that extorted money from everyone else to do anything. 

I honestly think mmo's need more gm interaction in them, I get tired of these schedualed yearly events and long quest grinds. I miss the random, GM's got bored so a god is now destroying the world, events. It gave a level of realism I liked, and I'll admit I like pvp as long as it is smart pvp with limits. Any game that lets lvl 60's gank a lvl 15 has built something wrong. Yes in the fantasy world of books and movies some newbie swords man can luck out and kill a skilled one, but in a world of hit points it will never happen.

To me the whole world has become more about what talent tree you took, what armor you have, and what build you use over just having fun. I miss the fun.

Originally posted by theartist

I disagree entierly with what you have to say. And find your hyperbole disheartening.

I mean I can understand your opinion on the matter, but it's far from fact. I could list several MMOs with great PVP prior to and post casual-PVE-gutting of the genre. But it's been done a million times before and you've obviously seen that list a number of times considering I see you post on every post.

Player vs player interaction can be more than what you perceive, and it is the only real basis of massive multiplayer. Relying on the chat client alone was bad enough, but now many developers are striving to make it so you don't even have to chat with other players while you tear down blocks of hp.

So that void gets filled with people needlessly trash talking and in general being annoying.

There's never been a PVP heavy game released that's had a 'poor community'. You can be on the losing side and get sore and everyone bicker, but it's not nearly as 'poor' as having a supposed forced comrade of yours in a game setting deny you access to content you feel you need because your gear score is lower than he decides it needs to be.

PVE focus in MMORPGs has ruined the genre.

Let me see now, DaoC had good PvP, Guildwars  also, at least the part they both perfected, RvR for DaoC and arenas for GW. Lineage used to have acceptable as well, and Eve have pretty Ok. 

But I been playing game since M59 and I never played a game that had the same PvP like many FPS games, take NAtural selection to say one. Great balance, loads of fun.

PvP needs to be as fun as PvE (which I wrote in an earlier post than the one you were quoting) but 90% of all MMO work has been put into PvE. And the original MMO mechanics (from M59 and EQ) are made for PvE, not PvP so of course it is harder to make PvP as well.

I am not against PvP and play it myself at times, but frankly is it not what it should be. DaoC had some great ideas but they never showed up in later games, and a lot were changed with the expansions that turned even DaoC less fun.

As for there is no PvP centered game with bad community, I have my doubts. I played Lineage from the beta and a lot of people there were real jerks. And I can tell you that AoCs PvP servers are a lot worse than the PvE servers, so I think you are simplifying things.

I do agree that PvE focus is bad for the genre, but that is because a good PvP game needs good mechanics for PvP and frankly do we need better mechanics for PvP games. Making a PvE game and then add a little PvP will of course suck.

I am so upset on Mythic, because GWs Warhammer rules would have made great mechanics for PvP but instead they decided to do as everyone else.

But I still rather have only PvE than crappy PvP mechanics, and the other way around. Anyways, I wrote a few posts here and in the other thread at the same time and if you just read that reply you are missing my entire point. PvP should be great but still do most MMO players prefer PvE. Why? Well, because MMO PvP just isn't so good as it should be, FPS games have the opposite problem.

Originally posted by Hype

Originally posted by Vistaakah

 I hope that by all us gamers being idle without subscriptions that developers take notice and listen for a change. Even in the early days of arcade games like waaaay back. Space Invaders, Asteroids, Centipede, etc. etc. we all wanted to have our initials at the top of the HIGH score chart..They need to bring back the human element, force hard work and socialization back into the MMO world and make it so that those people who put the extra effort in are rewarded for it as an individual or more importantly a team.

 

A company that employs most of these basic concepts in the next generation MMO will lead the market if you ask me. It will capture the market of players who want more out of a game.

 I don't enjoy killing other players. It's not fun. Even when I'm winning, PvP gets very unfun for me. I don't enjoy that type of socialization and, truth be told, most people don't. What you're asking for has been offered in the MMO market, and it is not leading. The idea that you think the market wants to be forced to work hard is... perplexing.

People play games to have fun. If the masses get a boatload of fun out of "working hard" they'll do it, if all they get is a digital reward, they won't. Only the hardcore competitives will. People who are just as likely to get that kind of satisfaction from sports and other gaming situations.

And forced socialization isn't socialization at all.

So you enjoy killing 12 bears then riding 20 minutes to turn in who sends you out to kill 15 wolves? That is WoW. That is LOTRO that is modern day MMO's. The Human element is what made MMO gaming otherwise all you would have is computer based single player games.  You must also realize that the population that brought the MMORPG industry into success are the ones who played the first online MMO ever released. If people are interested in PVE based games then their are far, far superior offline game titles to choose from that don't require a monthly fee. As far as socialization in online MMO games. That died out in every game released after WOW and even WOW is a dead feeling world as is LOTRO and even EQ2.