He neatly side-stepped 90 % of the questions and answered most of the rest with rhetorics and mantra-like "Players resist change, but we know better than them whats good for them".

I (often being accused of being the SWG fanboi on this board) have not seen any mea culpa from SWG for

a) having pushed CU live MUCH too early and with insufficient testing and balancing - a common problem seen with SOE and SWG for the last 2 years

b) having introduced a factor based on level difference between mobs and players that causes a LOT of problems and makes skill and quality equipment irrelevant and "staying within your level range" everything

c) stealth changes to the way resources are handled and then failing to correct the crafting screen - which means at the moment crafters get plain wrong information about the quality of the product they craft

d) heavy handed forum policing that spills over into the game (forum and game bans, hundreds of deleted threads)

e) bowing to marketing department pressure and almost always delivering buggy patches and expansion too early (even if later they correct the bugs - live servers are no beta test ground !!)

Have fun

Erillion

Here is the paradox. A toon has a combat level in the 50s. You are trained in pistols but want to now train in rifle. The weapon you are certified for is not lethal enough to solo a critter that earns combat skil exp. Or watch 10 level 32 npc gang attack and kill a combat level 80 player, and for the mobs the players kill, they get 1 skil point a piece. I do not have the option of getting together with 8 other skill opposing dudes for a nite on the town so I can have my way with the mobs and get skill leveling points. With the combat upgrade fix you are busy watching the circle so you know when to shoot again. You cant type to other players because your too busy dying. Try spending your play day in the cloning clinic. Arcade style not, tedious and boring style, yes. I have to look at some macro and hit the fire button every few seconds. Try that for an hour and you will be wearing a white lace up the back jacket. And not to mention all my armor is no good. I seen some on the vendor yesterday for 30 million. Same with the guns. The new game has a much higher leveling requirement for a skill that has a lot less killing power. I know why they did it, they want you to keep grinding, yes play without content lines there purses. That may work for some but not for the face pace game style we expect nowadays. SWG is not everquest and is not epic driven. We are there to shoot and loot. I was playing test center yesterday. You can have any skill, any armor any weapon you like. You can have any buff any amount of money or resource you desire. After 60 minutes of play in which 45 is cleaning out the Christmas tree you go fire on some npc. Then you fill out a survey and they base there game play success on your answer. Results would be far different if one had to earn the skil points.

I have a follow-up question...

Julio, you stated multiple times that the development team was moving in directions to make the game more enjoyable, and more immersive. 

My question is, were you designing the new system for you, or for us??

The reason I ask....  If it's for you, then we have no reason to complain.  We will just move on.  But if it's for us, then since it's not what we want/need,  perhaps you should change it back.

Well,seeing this kind of "answers" i dont regret that i have cancelled my accounts.Totally negotiate the massive problems.

...and i am a bit unsure if i should say this,but in my oppinion they abuse the "naiv",dedicated swg fans for testing and fixing a totally bugged product for a next and new generation of players (if they ever get a new generation after this fiasco..)

The points of most fans of this CU are that kind : i love it,its great,the problems .....i am sure they will fix it sometimes

The " it is a Star Wars Game" is the only plus-point left for this game.

Its sad...

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Originally posted by Ainaw
Has old julio played the cu?

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Julio's too busy playing a game's that fun !!   I bet when ole Julio gets home from work after a long day, he's probably logging onto WoW or EQ2 ....

 

If the accomplished players cancelled their account the CU upgrade wasn't good enough for them. However if they do want to make a profit why don't they focus on other people and give another trial. That way new players with a different opinion could join the game and eventually buy it and play it. They should really think about the marketing aspect of the game

It's simple they rushed the CU so the next expansion could be built on the same platform.  It seems like SOE modified the current EQ2 system and put it in place so they could save on coding time.  It's buggy, the particle effects are loony and not many people like it. 

Major problems with SWG:

1. They replaced a fairly unique skill based system and overlaid a level based syste,

2. When there is one PC class in a game that is inherently stronger than the rest hate and elitism ensue.  Jedi are 90% of the problem with the game.  Solve the problem and make them a normal character at start up.  The continuity is already busted.

3. We get very little feedback.  The CU was pushed forward by months and then the date was sprung on us at that.

Overall SOE and LA don't handle the community well and push unwanted untested changes on the community.

Ok i had a big long post with a full explanation of my opinions but i accidently hit backspace after deelecting chat window and im not retyping all that lol.  So to sum it all up CU is way too premature huge baalancing issues not to mention that triple crafters cannot check harvesters.  Also Im upset about pulling crafting autonomy away from doc/cm.  Biggest problem was Lucas forcing the devs to shove this out way too fast so that they could then shove out RotW too fast (conjecture on that one but conjecture based on past exp).  I supported the CU and even did so in TC but I do NOT suport in live yet.  I agree it is important but not like this.  Im cancelling 1 account keeping the others which are paid up through september and if the game is still in such sorry state by the end of july im just leaving and if you are on sunrunner yes there is a possibilty that you can have my stuff if you are a reb :).  I do not blame the devs.  I blame Lucas Arts, and I blame SOE for forcing the devs hands and ignoring the players for far too long.

Glod Glodsson M RIfle/ M CM
Gaspode M Dancer/ M Musician
Safept M Pistols/ BH 3040/ medic 2100

EDIT: Im in the market for another MMO right now in anticipation that SOE fails to fix all this any suggestions? And yes jervonics I'm looking forward to LOTR MMO as well cant wait just wish we had a date for even beta testing :(

Here is another Q&A .. more information .. maybe because the questions were more direct than in the MMORPG-Q&A (so guys .. next time throw them some hardballs !)

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05-03-2005 - The Combat Upgrade is here! There has been a bit of an uproar over the changes, some good and some bad. SWG Vault asks the SWG Developers the questions everyone wants answers to, and here is their response!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SWG Vault: Why was the initial design shown to the Correspondents back in August changed around so much as to essentially be a completely different game? The initial goal of the CU was simply to fix the problems and imbalance inherent in the release system, not redesign everything so that we're suddenly playing a new game two years down the road. This has to be the biggest thing bugging anyone at the moment.

Devs: We realized after about three series of design documents that bringing a better combat system to Galaxies would require significant changes to the basic way the game is played. Feedback from the Correspondents back in August definitely played a part in the final design process. While this is a change for the way this game is planed, it's going to allow us to add much more excitement and consequence to combat in the game. Going forward, our new combat system will capture the intensity of the galactic struggle during the time frame of our game. And the only way to accomplish this was to make changes on the scale that we have.


SWG Vault: Whatever happened to 'It'll be released when it's done'? There has been a big stink over the sudden appearance of the CU on the Test Servers without the previously announced closed Alpha and Betas occuring, two phases that were completely necessary to get the CU into a state where it would have been readily received by a vast majority of the playerbase and yet were totally ignored in a perceived push to capitalize on the EP3 marketing campaign.

Devs: The Combat Upgrade was not pushed live due to the upcoming Episode III expansion. The CU has created a platform for the Rage of the Wookiees content that will give players an immersive experience heavily focused on story-driven adventuring and grouping.

Combat Upgrade went live last week because we were at the point where the core mechanics were fully realized and what we were missing was the additional fine tuning that only comes with mass exposure.


SWG Vault: Why, with all the known bugs and issues surrounding the CU as it stood on the Test Servers, was it pushed to Live? Such a huge change to a major componant to the core game should have gone through much more QA and testing and bug fixing before that should have even entered the minds of anyone at LA or SOE. Again, many people feel this was done as part of the EP3 marketing campaign, something that no one at either company has sought to refute.


Devs: Many of the issues that surfaced in live were a function of the conversion and were not necessarily evident before the upgrade went live. Some of the elements players were listing as issues or bugs, were actually already fixed in the live version and some were simply features that players needed to get comfortable with as they were more an issue of reacting to the change than true bugs. We needed to get the code live and in-play with all the innumerable combinations of character skills/professions/game-play styles before any more significant enhancements could be identified.


SWG Vault: With the focus on group play, will it ever be possible for Jedi to group and hunt with guildmates and not gain visibility? With so many people gaining Jedi status, this is becoming a very big issue in a lot of guilds. The Jedi are forced to play by themselves so they will not gain visibilty, and the "missing members" have a deep effect on guild play and social structure.


Devs: It is important for us to mention with respect to the Jedi play experience we are always looking at it and thinking about how to improve it as we realize this is a high-value game system. The issue mentioned above is actually not really directly tied to the Combat Upgrade, they can still choose to group just as they could before the publish. And, just as before there are limitations to the Jedi when with a group. [Julio] The issue is balancing the visibility counter for when Jedi's are in a group, members of the group see the Jedi perform actions and the visibility counter is on. We will be adjusting this counter until the group experience for Jedi's feels right.


SWG Vault: A lot of crafters have been upset with the changes to the system, with their current inventories of resources and goods becoming worthless. What is being planned for the crafting classes to make up for the huge changes that were put in place to revamp combat?

Devs: We are actively trying to look at how to make crafters safe when they go out looking for resources. However, their resources and inventories should not be viewed as being worthless since the combat upgrade publish, in fact they are worth the same amount as they converted to goods with an equivalent value in relative terms.


SWG Vault: The entertainer professions are the ones that seem to be hurt the most by this, with most entertainer classes being rendered nearly useless. This group was already hit pretty hard by AFK buffbots and before that, hologrinding. Do you have specific plans to make the entertainment professions viable again, and if so, could you outline them?

Devs: There were new Inspirations introduced into the game with the Combat Upgrade and there are actually more coming soon!

Also, we have actually removed the "Buffbots" from the game which is an added bonus because it forces players to use the Inspiration system. In addition in May we will be removing the ability to make recursive macros in game, this will eliminate the AFK entertainers and re-establish a place for the real entertainers to enjoy SWG.

---

Originally posted by jervonics
well, it seems clear to everyone except SOE, that 80% of regular SWG players HATE the CU. so much so, that most of that 80% have cancelled our accounts. ive been to every message board i could find, and believe me, 80% is a conservative estimate. its a ashame that a community with so much love for each other, has to be ripped apart by yet another corporation, that sees nothing except dollar signs as the driving force in a game's development. obviously i will never buy another SOE product, but more to the point, i think i will never purchase any game backed by a major corporation. they just dont care bout anything other than their profit margin. the smaller development companies have a chance to grab a huge chunk of the market, by providing a MMORPG that we can start anew with. combined with an attention to fanbase (that SOE utterly fails at) they could create a RPG that fans could COUNT ON being there for the long haul. i am looking foward to both of TURBINES upcoming RPG's. D&D online and LOTR online will have a special place just knowing im dealing with real people. they need and value our cash MUCH MORE than SOE ever will. think about this when choosing your next MMORPG!

---

You really beleive most of 80% have cancelled? Thats really a shame...

"The Road Well-Travelled":

Back in the 1970's, George Lucas unknowningly created the basis for a world-wide phenomenum with the release of Star Wars.  Little did anyone at the time realize the far-reaching effects of this movie, and subsequent chapters would have on a the sci-fi fan base.  And, it continues to this very day with the coming release of Episode III and the end of the series.  Billions of dollars in revenue, legions of fans, product tie-ins too numerous to count all for the sake of a good versus evil story set in a "galaxy far, far away".

And thus the devoted and often rabid fan base was treated to a new and awesome product in the summer of 2003 titled "Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided", a persistent online role-playing game where players could create characters and play with others from around the globe in settings familiar to the Star Wars universe.  It was an instant success, despite many "bugs" and errors in programming, and immediately attracted 500,000+ users.  Many players even bought additional copies of the game so they could create secondary accounts (or more).  Over its almost two years of existence, the game slowly developed a very loyal following, even after some left for new MMORPG titles released in late 2004.

Then, in April 2005, Sony Online Entertainment, entrusted as the progenitors of Lucas' grand story, did the unthinkable.  They introduced a new combat system, complete with cartoon-like icons and special effects, without regard for their long-time veteran customers.  The player base had ben urging the development team at SOE for a combat "balance" and what they received was a completely new system fraught with errors, broken abilities and a "level" system.  The "upgrade", called CU by many, had negative affects on virtually all professions (or classes) in the game and caused an uproar rarely seen in the modern business world.  On forums and chat rooms across the globe, the SWG players raged against the CU yet SOE did very little to communicate with its customers and instead deleted negative posts from its forums and banned accounts in an effort to whitewash the outrage.  Players held varying opinions of the CU, some supported the changes as beneficial to the game's longevity, but the overall mood of the players was one of anger and mistrust.  Accounts were cancelled, protests were lodged and petitions signed but in the end, SOE stood by their decision and it was a costly one.

What can other companies learn from this example?  The MMORPG market is constantly changing and one thinks reaching the saturation point.  The games that will survive long-term seem to be the ones that maintain a healthy dialogue with their player base and actually consider the ideas and instincts of the majority of their paying customers as viable.  Those that rule with a heavy hand soon find themselves either striking a balance with their players or updating their resumes.

Shattered loyalty and saddened hearts, this was the fate of Star Wars Galaxies.

Im not really one to post my opinions on forums, but this was one thing I felt like talking about.

When this CU came out I really thought to myself  "how bad could it be?", just like a lot of people I knew were also thinking to themselves.  The truth is, everything about it made me hate what the game had become. 

I understand what they were trying to do, but my advice to anyone who is playing that doesnt like it: Get out.

You're not paying to make adjustments in your "life" for this gaming company, and shouldn't have to.

SWG Account: Canceled
Guess ill just wait for a WoW trial or something...

After reading the responses from Julio, i am pretty sure the SWG Dev email inboxes are being emptied without reading... All he goes on about is how great HE thinks the CU is.

The funniest part, i thought, was about the rollback servers... How could this be the ONLY thing they could have done better?

The idea behind the CU was not all that horrible but the way it has been implimented is pathetic. The difficult to understand icons, the myriad of combat bugs, the complete lack of variety on combat animation, i could go on for ever.

And there i was thinking the 'New' SWG Devs were going to improve on the inadiquicies of the previous crew...

Well done SOE on ruining a perfectly good game to attempt to make more money off of the back of a highly anticipated Star Wars movie. 

---

Originally posted by zoey121
Kingshark,
of course they want you to resepc over and over, each time you do you u lose elete boxes,
they figure they will "yank " the 12 day resepc then you will be "stuck grinding the rest"
Seems to me like the respec was figured in as a way to see how long accounts might be kept......
Oh and those folks that half to group now, just where are they finding the folks to group with????
Cnet on my server was empty prime time so was mining....................

---

Lose elite boxes? I gain them daily. You can take novice points and convert them into elite points, they convert at 2 novice to 1 elite point. I have gained quite a few levels because of the respec function on experience I would have otherwise just wasted because I never planned to use those skill trees. I think you better give the /respec command a better looking over, you may have missed something unless I am misunderstanding what your saying.

from Handsnake from the SOE forum. I copied here because its a very good analysis of what had happnened:

Combat Upgrade - An Analysis of a Design Variance

I think that this should be here, as it bears on the subject of this forum.
Please take the time to read all of the points as well as the conclusions. Keep responses civil, please.

I have tested the CU since it hit Beta and have been following the CU since publish 7.
There are a number of unexpected problems with the implementation of the CU as it stands in Live (and how it developed in beta) that do not track with the available information given over the year since it was announced.

The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.

Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.

This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.

Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.

1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.
The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.

The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.
Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.

Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.

This is the result of the 'level' system.
Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.
This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.
The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.

A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.

The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.
This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.

2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.

The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?
XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.

It was never an issue at all.

However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.

In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.

The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.
It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.

It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.

It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.
The reason why it was is the kicker.

3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.
This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.

So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.

This is a cheat.

The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.

It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.

XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.
Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.
Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*
*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)

So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"

Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.
Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.

You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid.
You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.
These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.

Quick. Easy. Fast.

No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.

Bam. Done.
Quick. Easy. Fast.
And WORTHLESS.

That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.
Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor
You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.
And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.
You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.

It takes time which they claim they don't have.
The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.
It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.
Without it, the CU would work.

With it, SWG is dead.

Replying to the OP (staff):

I do appreciate the effort and trying to get some good answers out of them. They however pretty much dodged everything you asked with a fairly pc answer that has no real meaning. This is why I don't care for prewritten QA's that they can read over and answer however they want without worry of having to elaborate on whatever they say.

This Q&A was honestly pretty worthless, it doesn't say anything. Maybe its soothing the stockholders alittle but I don't see where it will have any value at all to a player. I want to see them nail down some hard facts to serious questions, and have to explain themselves, not yet another "feel good" Q & A that leaves them every opportunity to not answer the question.