Originally posted by aleos

doubtful gamer here.  judging by the last 5 to 6 years, my doubts are justified.

This ^ .  So many devs jumped in the half-baked fiasco, therefore, another doubtful here. The sad thing is that I am beta testing an MMO, which happens to be another piece if garbage. There is only 1 MMO left I will give it a try, hopefully in beta. After that, I guess I will go back to RTS.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

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Originally posted by Ceridith
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Doubtful gamers do have a relation to the game they're being critical of. They are interested in the concept of the game, and want it to be good, otherwise they wouldn't bother.
 

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This isn't necessarily true, not all people on this site are interested in the concept when they start talking poorly on an intended feature.
 
When I used the term relation, I meant more so as a first hand relation, as in something that you can change with your critical ideas. Perhaps this is a partial reasoning why we see more posts in the form of attacks on design choices instead of constructive posts on what could change a feature they believe won't work, into one that will. The fact that no matter what they say, the feature won't change.
 

You're confusing a tree with a forest. The doubters complain about particular MMO features because they like the overall concept of the MMO, or other portions of the MMO. For example with SWTOR, many people like the idea of a new star wars MMO, but they don't like particular features. Or they may alternatively like some concepts like the crafting system or story driven element, but they feel that the space flight system is lacking.

Yes, their criticism may be coming from a selfish standpoint, but the fact still remains that they still have interest in the game being a good game. That's not to say that they demand that the game revolve around their personal preferences, simply that they state that they would prefer one or more mechanics align to what they feel would fit them better. It is usually through this type of criticism that certain shortcomings in game mechanics are revealed.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

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Originally posted by Ceridith

 

I believe that there does need to be a balancing out with regards to hype. Allowing hype to run rampant and unchecked essentially what the past six years has reaped with regards to grossly overhyped games that fell flat on their faces because they fell short of what they tried to claim they would be.
 

It's hype that leads to box sales past and into the millions, yet merely a fraction of those in subscribers.
By continuing to allow ourselves as consumers of MMOs to be lead by the monster that is hype, we continue to tell developers and publishers that it's okay to put out a half-baked product, because we'll buy it anyways so long as they make the game look good, even if it sucks.
 

If we cull hype down to a more reasonable level, and not allow ourselves to be blindfolded by it, we will stop rewarding developers and publishers for putting out poor products.
 

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 I don't agree with this, actually. Balancing hype isn't helping anyone, its confusing the situation. MMOs are based on the idea that great gameplay will increase longevity and thereby increase monetary gains. It doesn't stop at the box sale (well, with games like GWs it does) it trickles down the line to increased growth and thereby increased opportunity.

 Games that don't follow through with creating a good, lasting game with few problems find out very quickly. Many people cite AoC and WAR, maybe even STO and FFXIV as being games that were "flops" because of the major issues they had upon release that couldn't guarantee longevity. What you see now though is that the games actually felt those effects regardless of how popular these games were in development.

 The only good thing about trying to balance hype is, if you bring it down nominally, then excitement can only grow instead of decline. If you expect the best game ever you'll always be disappointed. If you expect a good game that will take up some modest time, then you may be pleasantly surprised.

 

The problem is, here, we find no balance between this. You have those that argue the game will fail, and then those that argue the game will succeed. We need to thrive in the middle ground, and yet, everyone is too busy arguing to find it.

MMO's should be based on the principle that making a well thought out and planned MMO wit decent gameplay will succeed. The reality is quite different lately.

Look at how many MMOs that were released in the last 6 years failed to meet their expectations. Gamers were promised the sky, and delivered medicrity. Games with huge budgets, tens of million, even 100 million dollar budget, falling flat on their faces. Each and every one of these games, the hype was through the stratosphere.

Yet despite that, many of these games still managed to make a profit, primarily through box sales, and more lately through lifetime subs. The worst offenders are Cryptic's STO and CO.

Without the ridiculous level of hype, these games wouldn't sucker in so many gullable gamers who are desperate for a decent MMO to come along. So long as gamers allow themselves to be strung along by hype, the more the cycle will continue. Developers and Publishers will continue to half-ass MMO production so lond as consumers keep paying off the development cost by gobbling up products based on hype.

If criticism of upcoming games by doubters is causing confusion, I say good. It's better that gamers not get caught up in a decision as to whether or not a game is good or not before it's even released. Instead, that they wait for the game to release and wait for reviews until deciding whether or not an MMO is worth their money.

It's time we break the cycle of hype.

Well I have one thing to say to you Mr Murphy is ..

Throw away your rose colored glasses.

Originally posted by kb4blu

Well I have one thing to say to you Mr Murphy is ..

Throw away your rose colored glasses.

 

 Better an optimist than a synic.

It was an enjoyable read.

I am doubtful gamer now. I didn't used to be. Prior to 2004 I was burned a few times by games that promised much, much more than they delivered. After 2004 I was burned every single time. I buy a copy of most every MMO that comes out and download a lot of F2P titles as well. If you include MUDs, I guess I've tried around 75+ games. When you put that much effort into a hobby and then are beaten down every time you get your hopes you for six years, you lose hope. I don't see how I could be positive, being a doubtful gamer is all that is left.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Ceridith

I'm positive I would be labeled as a "doubtful gamer". But I think the perception of what motivates the doubtful gamer is still not quite understood.

I wasn't always a doubtful gamer. I use to be a very enthusiastic gamer. I looked forward to new MMOs with great anticipation. Over the years however, I've seen countless MMOs rise and fall, many of which were vastly overhyped. And there's the core of it, for me anyways.

Hype.

As a doubtful gamer, I can't stand hype. It annoys me to no end, like being in an elevator with someone who won't get off their cellphone. Hearing endless chatter about how "awsome", "groundbreaking", and "innovative" a new MMO will be grates on my nerves.

Why? Quite simply, I'm sick of the cycle.

Time and time again in the modern MMO market, gamers get whipped up into a ravenous frenzy over the next new MMO. The game could be month, or years, away from release, yet players paint pictures, and worst of all, opinions and reviews of MMOs long before they ever play them. They create impossible images about just how good the games will be so that, when the games are finally released, their self created beliefs of what the MMO would be comes crashing down around them.

Half finished or outright missing game mechanics, bugs, exploits, or game mechanics that are just plain boring in practice even though they sounded good on paper.

Yet despite this cycle of over-hyping MMOs, and failed expectations, so many gamers can't seem to stop from getting caught up in all of it.

That's where I as a doubtful gamer fall into the picture. I am the anti-hype. I don't want said MMO to fail or be bad. If anything, I was it to be a fun and enjoyable MMO, so I have another decent choice in MMOs to play.

The criticism from the doubtful gamer is not a bad thing. By questioning the valididity of the design choices of developers, we encourage critical thinking and analysis of game mechanics. This can help expose the "sounds good on paper" mechanics by offering alternative views or issues that were not otherwise considered before.

In the end, realize that the doubtful gamer does not want failure, they want success. We are simply jaded from past failures, and are much more hesitant to support an MMO until we have hard evidence that said MMO is good. That means actually seeing the finished product in action.

Forming an opinion on whether an MMO is good or not should be based around actually partaking in the finished game, and not being caught up in hype like so many people do these days.

Very well said.  How can you not be doubtful about this industry as a whole when you see consistently mediocre games being released none of which come close to living up to the hype that preceeded them.    I do hope upcoming games like Rift, SWTOR, TERA,  etc. can change this, but I am certainly not getting my hopes up.  I do wish one of these games would base their avatar advancement on skill rather than levels and present some challenges instead of giving in to the "I want it now" crowd.

 

 yet anybody that post on this forum, and doesnt buy hype from developers and question and critize the mmorpg games, automatically get labled a troll and banned from forums like this.

What kind of motivation is that on the very people that try to get developer to actually deliver on what they say?

Over the years, I learned not to buy hype. even outside the MMORPG gaming world.

I have to say I am the doubtful gamer as well.

The reasons speak for as is.  There have been a lot of games that have come out that made a ton of promises, and then failed to deliver.  Then you had some games come out then changed the entire way they done things, thus again making me turn around and wonder why.

I try to be optimistic but with the track record games have nowadays I have to error on the side of caution.   I tend to try these games but then get sadly disappointed.

I will use the following as case in example.

(1) Sto lots of promises failed to deliver on all of them, major complaint store is everything in a play to pay.

(2) Warhammer lots of promises, game also failed to live up to the hype

(3) Lotro was great at first, somewhere along the way we got twisted up with Mines of Moria, the game went downhill, now they went free to play,  Most of what the game is now relies on the store and on repeatable content.  Lotro forgot what it was to push out regular land mass updates, now it only caters to the me crowd.  Same for DDO.

(4) Stargate Worlds what can I say 5 years of development and nothing, a ponzi scheme at best,  failure to deliver on everything.

(5) AOC,  I got to say they delivered on the combat, however there are lots of other things so wrong with that game. I have to say that it was way over hyped and only 25% delivered on the hype.

So now that I point all that out now I have to say now do you understand why I don't buy all they hype nowadays, look at everything we been disappointed by.  Oh I got another 10 pages I could add to this list.

  Nowadays, the worst part of any game for me is all the people crapping on the game.  I don't sit around critiquing every game, I just find something that I think is fun about it and go with that.  It's really not much different than when we were kids, and could find fun ways to play with boxes and empty wrapping-paper-tubes.

  Everyone that logs into a game and then proceeds to vent inside the game about how they think 'the game is crap' is making it less fun for everyone else.  If you can't find the fun in simple, imperfect things anymore, then you've developed a serious change in your personality that's going to affect a lot more than your gaming life.

Originally posted by Halibrand

  Nowadays, the worst part of any game for me is all the people crapping on the game.  I don't sit around critiquing every game, I just find something that I think is fun about it and go with that.  It's really not much different than when we were kids, and could find fun ways to play with boxes and empty wrapping-paper-tubes.

 

  Everyone that logs into a game and then proceeds to vent inside the game about how they think 'the game is crap' is making it less fun for everyone else.  If you can't find the fun in simple, imperfect things anymore, then you've developed a serious change in your personality that's going to affect a lot more than your gaming life.

 I see this all the time in just about any game i play.  There was a discussion in 1-9 chat tonight about how bad eq2 has been.   I see this kind of thing and think if its so bad why not leave,  but when you look at it they payed for a sub,  and got a rite to complain.  After all your paying to play, you should complain if things are not right, and if your not happen then don't sub. 

Or if your like me and made the mistake of getting a lifetime sub to lotro, yes I will pick on that game forevre until they decide to go back to the way it was before mom,  they got my cash,  I was with the dirrection of the game until they decided to turn it to crud and give the me crowd and folks with tons of disposable income the i wind button.

What I find especially interesting, are people who act surprised that some games just aren't good or for them.

They keep naming off bad games or games they didn't enjoy, and are using them as a reason to be sour posters/people. What makes it even worse is they're seemingly taking pride in it, which really makes no sense.

Every genre has bad games, it's just with most genre's there are far more games to choose from in any given time span. People find the one they want and play it. MMO's are released much more sporadic, so it does make sense that these failures are a lot more noticeable.

Yet it doesn't make sense that people become bitter and jaded, simply because every game doesn't meet their criteria or standards.

There's a possibility for every game to come out bad, so there's no reason to be a Debbie downer over it when it happens. Life is far too short to worry about crap like that. All you can do is offer feedback or move on. Kicking and screaming, insulting people or companies, souring communities and generally being hard asses solves nothing.

My philosophy for everything from weather to games to travel is "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and expect something in between".

AVGN!! LOL!

Well, doggone.

Last week, I thought we were supposed to allow everyone to have his own opinion--or was that another columnist?

:D

Great article Bill! As I read all the above comments it seems like some of the most negative ones echoed the same thing. Too many people know that the hype surrounding a game is always going to be a lie in some regard but they keep on drinking it up only to get disappointed every single time. I'm not a doubtful gamer because I disregard 99% of what comes out of other people's mouths when it comes to what a game will be. I am a disappointed gamer, though. My disappointment is almost entirely from within myself and usually has nothing to do with the game itself. AOC was a fun game but I quit anyway as it lacked the community that made me enjoy other games. After three months of playing I had the fun of not being accepted into or offered a single spot in a group. It was like a really fun solo game that cost a ton of money so I left.  I quit WoW for a similar reason. I got groups every day but the people I met were always the same. All business, no chatting, just stfu and finish this dungeon so we can do another please... It felt as if I was trying to make friends with a bunch of rejects at a line of slot machines. It was like they were only there to stare at the screen as they waited for a random prize. I like to have a good laugh and have fun when I play games and without other people looking for the same, games just won't cut it for me, no matter how good they are. 

Since most of my real friends have moved into FPS games, that's what I've done as well. SWTOR is the only thing on the horizon that any of us are looking forward to. And if it sucks, there's always Counter-Strike to play. 

Very good article.

This message was approved by boincman

I believe the corrcet quote is: "Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and expect to be surprised." :)

As for the article, I am still looking for my next game. I gave up on DAoC after their Archery patch years ago.

AoC was hyped enough, but their combat system lacked limits, so every duel became a circle-strafing loop. Add the poorly implemented PvP system and sieges, and separate PvP and PvE gear, and I bid farewell after a year or so.

LotRO had very many things going for it, and I might return once more to Middle-earth when Rohan expansion comes. The reason I left was that combat became boring, and I usually ended up typing 1-2-3-4, and back to 1 if it has recycled.

These days I occupy my time in DDO. I really like the combat system there, but would have loved to see a different world. If Turbine implemented DDOs combat system in LotRO I would be back in a flash.

If I am to get excited about a new title, then it would need a solid background and a balanced combat system that is fun. DAoC did it with King Arthur, vikings, and Celts, why not a game with Greece vs Rome/Egypt vs Carthage?

A couple of points.

Doubtful gamers are made, not born.  They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.

Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.

Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).

Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends.  Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.

Originally posted by lizardbones

I don't mind doubtful gamers.  Recent history has not shown any AAA companies can release an MMO that is anywhere near as good as the hype they put out about the games.

 

What really gets on my nerves are the people who repeatedly whine about how WoW has destroyed their ability to enjoy playing games.  If the "old school" games are better, go play them.  What?  They're boring?  They have a low population?  Well, duh, people got tired of playing them.  That's why we're all doubtfully looking at all the new MMO games coming out to see if any of them are decent.  Quit whining about it and play something else or find something else to do.

 

I really wish I could, what with SWG being murdered and all.

Originally posted by Kyleran

A couple of points.

Doubtful gamers are made, not born.  They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.

Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.

Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).

Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends.  Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.

One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.

That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else.  It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.

Originally posted by Rohn

Originally posted by Kyleran

A couple of points.

Doubtful gamers are made, not born.  They are the result of promises made and unkept, changes to beloved gaming systems, usually not for the better, and the endless repeition of the past 5 years as everyone tries to carve out a piece of WOW's casual gamer market.

Doubtful gamers aren't expecting every newly released MMO to be for them, but it sure would be nice to see one or two on the horizon that wasn't being developed by an under funded indie effort.

Doubtful gamers voice their complaints, concerns and even their rage on forums like this one because, well, that's what forums are for, PVP right? (or at least interaction between gamers).

Doubtful gamers are customers too, have money to spend, but see little to spend it on with the current design trends.  Most of us (and I count myself as one) try to find what fun we can from the current games but sure keep hoping that something is coming that will provide real gaming enjoyment.

 

One thing I can guarantee you from the "doubtful gamers" - if and when you do find a game that provides real gaming enjoyment for you, a contingent of "doubtful gamers" will be ripping it apart, claiming it didn't keep promises to them, makes changes that don't suit them, and is just more of the same repetition of the past 5 years.

That's because "doubtful gamers" are just as diverse as everyone else.  It doesn't make them righteous crusaders, at least not in the way many like to portray themselves.

If we were to find a game we enjoyed, we wouldn't complain. That's the whole problem with the last 6 years, there's been nothing worthwhile. Nothing has even come close to living up to the hype created around them because It's been the same half-baked ideas that are half-finished.

The upcoming MMOs may change this, but they may very well not either. Personally I'll wait to see how they turn out, but I'm definately not getting my hopes up. I would rather be skeptical and then pleasently surprised, than optimistic and then let down.