Well with EvE the fact that skill leveling was automatice via the skill que meant i could do fun stuff like raiding peoples mining operations, fighting wars, Mine minerals, do missions, basically do what i want not what the game wanted you to do if you wanted your avatar to "level up".

So i voted a very conservative yes as we hav eno idea how the game works and can only guess what content will be in it, so all i can say is thqat a skill que will at the least free you up oto do more than just grind mobs for skillpoints.

And to those saying the lack of leveling was bbad as it denied any connection  well i say you should have done something in eve to conect as there was plenty to do.

There shouldn't be character-progression at all. No levels, no skillpoints, no nothing.

You create a character, distribute the available points into attributes and abilities and that's it. After you've created your character you stick to it and play it the way you created 'em. That's roleplaying.

Originally posted by jrs77

There shouldn't be character-progression at all. No levels, no skillpoints, no nothing.

You create a character, distribute the available points into attributes and abilities and that's it. After you've created your character you stick to it and play it the way you created 'em. That's roleplaying.

I disagree wholeheartedly, but  before I totally write-off your suggestion what other means of keeping players interested do you propose in place of the character advancement mechanic?

I'd be in favour of some kind of offline skill progression, but it would absolutely need to be tied into the lore & not be too heavy handed in terms of it's effect upon the gameplay, having some of the more "subtle" skills be done this way could be a good thing, & tie into how vampires "age" in the WoD universe, perhaps you would also need to build up a "blood-pool" of some kind to sustain you in this offline skill-building scheme.

Originally posted by jrs77

There shouldn't be character-progression at all. No levels, no skillpoints, no nothing.

You create a character, distribute the available points into attributes and abilities and that's it. After you've created your character you stick to it and play it the way you created 'em. That's roleplaying.

That's not WoD.  I've payed the P&P for years. If you want to know what WoD mechanics is like in context to a video game play Vampire: Bloodlines. 

There's xp you use to increase your stats, powers, training, and knowledge. Which is the even playing field for a new comer vs a veteran.  The only none xp based quantitative part of WoD is political intrigue, equipment and combat tactics. which players themselves figure out. There's even a merit you can buy for annual money, which doesn't count what you steal off some dumb gang banger who thought he was gunna bust a cap in your vampire ass.

---

Originally posted by Skuz

---

Originally posted by jrs77
There shouldn't be character-progression at all. No levels, no skillpoints, no nothing.
You create a character, distribute the available points into attributes and abilities and that's it. After you've created your character you stick to it and play it the way you created 'em. That's roleplaying.

---

I disagree wholeheartedly, but  before I totally write-off your suggestion what other means of keeping players interested do you propose in place of the character advancement mechanic?
 
I'd be in favour of some kind of offline skill progression, but it would absolutely need to be tied into the lore & not be too heavy handed in terms of it's effect upon the gameplay, having some of the more "subtle" skills be done this way could be a good thing, & tie into how vampires "age" in the WoD universe, perhaps you would also need to build up a "blood-pool" of some kind to sustain you in this offline skill-building scheme.

---

Look at EvE. What keeps this game going for 7 years now is playerdriven economy and territorial warfare, playerpolitics and social engineering.
Character-progression is totally uninteresting for the players after some 2-3 years and they still keep playing the game. So why not give them the ability to build the character they want right in the beginning and play their role?

---

Originally posted by Daitengu
That's not WoD. I've payed the P&P for years. If you want to know what WoD mechanics is like in context to a video game play Vampire: Bloodlines.

There's xp you use to increase your stats, powers, training, and knowledge. Which is the even playing field for a new comer vs a veteran. The only none xp based quantitative part of WoD is political intrigue, equipment and combat tactics. which players themselves figure out. There's even a merit you can buy for annual money, which doesn't count what you steal off some dumb gang banger who thought he was gunna bust a cap in your vampire ass.

---

I've played lot's of PnP RPGs. AD&D, MERS, Shadowrun etc and you can play them without any character-progression at all.
Shadowrun for example doesn't have any character-progresion at all and I've played it for 5 years in college. It's all about playing a role and not about getting better stats.

Originally posted by jrs77

 

---

Originally posted by Skuz

---

Originally posted by jrs77
There shouldn't be character-progression at all. No levels, no skillpoints, no nothing.
You create a character, distribute the available points into attributes and abilities and that's it. After you've created your character you stick to it and play it the way you created 'em. That's roleplaying.

---

I disagree wholeheartedly, but  before I totally write-off your suggestion what other means of keeping players interested do you propose in place of the character advancement mechanic?
 
I'd be in favour of some kind of offline skill progression, but it would absolutely need to be tied into the lore & not be too heavy handed in terms of it's effect upon the gameplay, having some of the more "subtle" skills be done this way could be a good thing, & tie into how vampires "age" in the WoD universe, perhaps you would also need to build up a "blood-pool" of some kind to sustain you in this offline skill-building scheme.

---

Look at EvE. What keeps this game going for 7 years now is playerdriven economy and territorial warfare, playerpolitics and social engineering.
Character-progression is totally uninteresting for the players after some 2-3 years and they still keep playing the game. So why not give them the ability to build the character they want right in the beginning and play their role?

 

---

Originally posted by Daitengu
That's not WoD. I've payed the P&P for years. If you want to know what WoD mechanics is like in context to a video game play Vampire: Bloodlines.

There's xp you use to increase your stats, powers, training, and knowledge. Which is the even playing field for a new comer vs a veteran. The only none xp based quantitative part of WoD is political intrigue, equipment and combat tactics. which players themselves figure out. There's even a merit you can buy for annual money, which doesn't count what you steal off some dumb gang banger who thought he was gunna bust a cap in your vampire ass.

---

I've played lot's of PnP RPGs. AD&D, MERS, Shadowrun etc and you can play them without any character-progression at all.
Shadowrun for example doesn't have any character-progresion at all and I've played it for 5 years in college. It's all about playing a role and not about getting better stats.

You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair  running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat.  Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players.  Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.

In EvE, the lore was developed and supports the time based skill training. If a similar system could be justified using the WoD rules, then I'd be all for it. Personally, I like the time-based training, but if it turns out it is a square peg in a round hole, I'd prefer they go with a different method that WoD lore supports. As a side note, this opinion is purely based on me not being overly familiar with WoD lore beyond the very basics...

---

Originally posted by Daitengu

You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair  running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat.  Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players.  Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.

---

If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.

Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.

Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.

Originally posted by jrs77

 

---

Originally posted by Daitengu

You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair  running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat.  Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players.  Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.

---

If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.

Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.

Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.

I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time.  Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock  that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels?

 I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time.  I'm also terrible actor.  I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life.  I can show people  how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all?  In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill.

On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training.  To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.

Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.

How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above?  In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.

Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.

Originally posted by jrs77

 

---

Originally posted by Daitengu

You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair  running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat.  Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players.  Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.

---

If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.

Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.

Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.

Problem is, that works in tabletop RPGs and only if you have a really dedicated group of roleplayers who are into the hobby for the sake of experience and well spent time not for loot whoring and min-maxing. Unfortunately, the later make the majority of MMO players and even if you go RP heavy you gotta offer the players some kind of progressive advancement to make them feel they're accomplishing something tangible in the game.

I love EVE's skill training system through-and-through. Forcing friends, or guilds, to schedule every little thing they do so that they all remain able to play with each other is one of my primary problems with MMOs. The amount of time you sacrifice from your life to an MMORPG should absolutely have to do with how much your character accomplishes and not how competent your character is. I love EVE for this. Dearly. It's better for the players' lives and the developers' bank accounts.

However, I can't see time-based skill training making sense in WoD. You're not exactly plugged into the Matrix—you're not the pseudo-infomorph you are in EVE, where the time spent training is a matter of synaptic plasticity.

I can, though, imagine things that could occur on behalf of the player, advancement-wise or otherwise, whilst the player is offline, thanks to our favorite friends/proxies/servants/slaves, the ghouls:

You are logging off. Do you have a task for your ghoul(s)?

• Clean this place up.
• Pick up the drycleaning.
• Here's $___; buy yourselves something nice.
• Buy ________ for me if the price drops below $___.
• Hunt down that good-for-nothing _____ and teach them a lesson.
• Have breakfast ready for me.

The best would be both.

The power you get from your blood (Attribute and discipline) would be based on time and you would gain XP to level your skill. There you get better the more you play, but no power gamer can become too powerfull to fast.

Originally posted by Bishop200

The best would be both.

The power you get from your blood (Attribute and discipline) would be based on time and you would gain XP to level your skill. There you get better the more you play, but no power gamer can become too powerfull to fast.

Unless we're going to be playing over hundreds to thousands of years of in-game time, I can't see that making sense. Even in Requiem, blood potency rises by one per 50 years. In Masquerade, the closest equivalent is generation, and it is static.

Although, I suppose, if we assume that we're looking at oWoD post-Gehenna, or some scenario in which Gehenna never occurred, CCP may opt to make something about this new generation special in that they grow in power very rapidly, i.e. in matters of days rather than decades. I'm not sure I'd be thrilled with that, however.

Unless, that is, using your attributes/disciplines example, they move attributes and disciplines from a 5-point system to at least a 100-point system, so vampires are not eating the Antediluvians in a matter of months, but they still have the smooth yellow brick road of magical rewards that MMOers crave. Yet that entails 100 powers for each discipline. Fuck.

I love passive time-based advancement, but I can't find a way to fit it in, here.

---

Originally posted by Daitengu

---

Originally posted by jrs77
 

---

Originally posted by Daitengu
You can do that if all your players can RP everything. If they can't the xp and skill system in those games help players who are weak to RPing how they want there characters to be. Like a girl in a wheelchair  running a combat heavy werewolf would have an extremely hard time RPing combat.  Or a socially awkward nerd guy playing a female socialite. Somethings some people just can't RP, and forcing a player to play what they don't want because they can't be like the character they lovingly chreated is disaterous for those players.  Can you really RP combat without the xp system as a filter to allow people to do more than they physically can, but without cheating? If you can grats, you got some honest people. Most people will try to get away with as much as possible and the system makes it easier to keep people in check.

---

If you want to roleplay a swordmaster, you create a character with sword-abilities and the regarding attributes. If you want to roleplay a crafter, you choose the abilities and attributes for it.... etc.
Roleplaying is not as hard as you might think it is.
Combat for example is about killing your chosen targets and there doesn't need to be any XP for killing other players or NPCs. The only thing of interest is achieving your set goal of killing the chosen targets.
Playing a RPG is not about getting rewards, playing a RPG is about social interaction and to have fun spending some time roleplaying a character.

---

 
I disagree I feel RP is about enacting what your character can do. Xp is an expression of how that character progresses over time.  Sure you could do it without the xp system, but the players end up making up for a lack of a system with RPing skill training. Or their characters become static and never changing. How would you as a GM be able to tell players they can't pick a particular lock  that the player thinks they should be able to without a difficulty system and skill level to state things in black and white? Especially when the character can already do more than what the player has practical knowledge of. a 19th century combination lock is a bit different than a bank vault combination lock from the 80s for instance. How would you quantify difficulty difference if you aren't playing with skill levels?
 I personally and a highly technical person and without the rules my combat would take forever as I nit pick everything. I'm a martial arts guy what can I say. I research all the time.  I'm also terrible actor.  I can be in the mindset of a particular character, but I can't act it to save my life.  I can show people  how a 100 lb girl can throw a 200 lb guy IRL, but how can I RP combat against someone else who's terrible at it, but there character is great at it? While trying to not look like an ass or know-it-all?  In the WoD system I find quite a bit of comfort in that I can rely on the sytem to limit what I know conpared to what's allowed in game in respect to dots in skill.
On the other end of the spectrum, The average joe isn't going to have things like occult knowledge, Larceny of any degree, computer skills, or military grade firearms training.  To me as a guy who knows or knows the general theory about a lot of things, I can see how daunting it would be for someone to try and act a skill that they don't even know the first thing about.
 
Picking handcuffs would seem impossible to the average person, but I can do it, behind my back and blindfolded no less.
 
How would you propose to translate RP in an MMO where if there isn't a progression system how do people get better at a skill such as the example above?  In such a way to keep power gamers from abusing the system to do anything they want.
 
Doing things face to face is a bit different than doing things on line as people done live by societal rules on the net.
 

---

Why has there to be skills/talents for everything? Why not make the stuff like lockpicking for example dependant on your basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc...).
Why not enable every player to do everything from the go and only have a few special-skills to choose from ontop of that to make them specialists in a certain area?

Character-progression and the treasurehunt for epics gets old and it's time for more roleplaying and social interaction instead.

Some kind of monetary rewards for quests is all there should be regarding character-progression, so that people can buy some items for their characters.

The main-aspect of the game shouldn't be about character-progression, but about player-interaction, clan/guild-warfare, social engineering, crafting and playerdriven economy.

With skills and levels you min/max your toons, and after a certain point the whole character-progression get's uninteresting.
In EvE you train the skills until you can fly the desired ship-classes and then you learn skills that you'll never use. My 5 year old character in EvE trains unneeded skills for some 2 years now actually.

In every system there'll be a point, where you max out the skills or levels you wanted for your playstyle and after that point it's still all about roleplaying.
So why not do away with the character-progression at all to begin with and start playing the game instantly like you want to play it?

There's too many spoiled people outthere, who got used to levels and skill-training over the years to feel like they've actually achieved something... pff...
Roleplaying is the only thing that keeps EvE Online running for the last 5 years and not the skill-trainings... and yes, alliance-warfare, politics, and economy is all considered roleplaying in my books as all these activities have nothing to do with character-progression.

On another note.... the passive skill-training in EvE Online is one aspect, why alot of people hate EvE Online, becuase they need to spend month of training and subscriptions first, before they can take part in the interesting parts of the game.

I'd be very much with you, jrs77, for any new IP, but CCP is picking up an existing setting and system, here. As nice as it would be, I seriously don't expect it to happen.

Originally posted by jrs77

Why has there to be skills/talents for everything? Why not make the stuff like lockpicking for example dependant on your basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc...).

Why not enable every player to do everything from the go and only have a few special-skills to choose from ontop of that to make them specialists in a certain area?

I have an IQ of 139 and very nimble fingers, but I'm pretty sure that I couldn't pick a lock, and I know people with IQs of <120 who can do things with their brains that baffle me. Attributes and skills are typically separate in RPGs partly because they very much are separate in reality.

Astrophysicists and evolutionary biologists both need to be very intelligent, yet the application of that intelligence is a world apart, and the biologist can't just stand in for the astrophysicist on his sick days. Likewise for pianists and guitarists, or football players and hockey players.

Originally posted by jrs77

The main-aspect of the game shouldn't be about character-progression, but about player-interaction, clan/guild-warfare, social engineering, crafting and playerdriven economy.

Absolutely, and the most direct way to achieve that might be as you suggest. Yet then again, White Wolf's Vampire RPGs achieve that even with experience-based rewards, and EVE achieves it even with it's time-based skill training.

Moreover, CCP has continued to say that this MMO is a social and political game—however they plan to achieve that in this instance, it is their stated intention, and it is the nature of the White Wolf system.

Voted no. I want a skill based system, yes, but not one dependent upon the passage of real time. I'd like to have more control over how fast I progress. If they do utilize it, though, it won't bother me that much as I'll be in from the start on this game.

I 100% do not want a level based themepark system. Thankfully, since it's CCP, I'm not too worried about them doing a themepark game.

Lot of interesting theories about what this simulation will be like and when I say a simulation I have a strong feeling that this upcoming title will be. Never played much PnP RPG games just the old Star Trek back when I was 7-10 , but I voted yes time based skilled based would be the way to go if the lore fits with it. I myself like the system EVE uses for progression, noone is uber powerful noone is uber weak its all about specialization and CCP in regards to EVE have did a great job over the years finding that balance and goes to show that you don't need levels to be successful.

Some of the posters in this OP seem to be very passionate about this project and the more they describe it the more im intrigued. It really seems like it would put the RPG back into the MMO scheme without the developer scripting everything for you and holding your hand like TOR will end up doing telling your story for you instead of it being the other way around.

Time-based would work with the lore. However, that model is the reason I never got into EVE. I refuse to play a game where my stats were based on how long I was subscribed, not how much or how well I actually played.

I would definitely prefer a skill-based system, ala UO. I could even settle for a mix, where time controls your stats (Strength, Dexterity, etc), while active use of your skills improves your talents (shoot a lot of guns, your firearms goes up).

If it basically comes down to EVE-style versus not, I choose the not. I don't care what the 'not' is, but I hate EVE style with a passion. So, I voted no.

i don't get it why people say that in eve players make the rules... that's completely wrong, the developers make the rules, players are forced to comply by them that's it.

I mean you have an area with one rule "kill/die as much as you want" for what ever reason you want, you can kill some random guy and say its because he was was of a different color thus is a racist war... it doesn't matter because in the end your just making an excuse to kill them and that is not you making the rules.

Hell that isn't even a new concept, any game not based in factions(because there is another rule that say "you cant attack your own faction") has a similar system.

Get over it, players don't make rules in the actual game like some people are claiming, the best you can get is to make theoretical rules inside your guild where the only penalty is being kicked, hey this is a perfect example of why players cant be making the rules, imagine if you could do anything you wanted like forcing to players to pay for doing something against the rules like "paying a fine" it would be exploited, happens in real life and would happen in the game.

Rules will always be made by the developers in order to be a fair virtual world, players obey them and make excuses for their actions within their set of rules.

Politics imo is the act of achieving a peaceful solution to a problem instead of using force, games are ultimately about war and fighting each other wise it would be just a social-networking game dull, boring and it wouldn't be appealing to players.

In the end people are talking about the core of game design and are hardly thinking about the whole picture.

Let the flaming begin...