|70 posts found|
OP 10/01/10 12:16:37 AM#1
You guys know the system. Some love it, some hate it. It has it's pros and cons. IMO pros being it's grindless and casual friendly and let's people actually play the game and not log in just to "level". Cons would be it's a cock block for power gamers because you need to wait for skills an no matter how hardcore you are some newb that plays two hours aweek skills up the same as you. So should WoD have an eve type skill system?
10/01/10 12:25:53 AM#2
Works for me as long as it have some the original WoD system in it too.
As long as the game isn't levelbased I can accept most ways. I wont play it if it have levels, it just goes too much against the lore (like Warhammer BTW).
And to let players advance slowly works fine, however is there the issue that new players do need to be able to eventually catch up to the older players so some modificaction of the original system would be to prefer, maybe by letting a few things (certain really epic things) be worth xp together with the time system.
10/01/10 12:30:36 AM#3
How do you think it will play like the combat system will be point and click or more actiony? I need more info before I cen decide :/
10/01/10 12:33:24 AM#4
If its passive time based. I will invest money into accounts. A lot of accounts. I dont mind, its White Wolf, its CCP, it cannot go wrong.
Considering how the pen and paper games worked, character progression happened in the end of each game session and points would be awarded based on certain factors.
1 point after every session was mandatory. Of course, the sessions would have to be somewhat meaningfull for that.
There was an element of balance between players/characters power, in that, most of the time, xp points would be awarded when the group of players was gathered. Ive had some storytelling experiences for individual players with awarded progression, but that was RARE. Roleplaying was first and foremost a social experience, the gathering of the group was key.
You see, experience was awarded individually for each character, but normally it only occurred collectivelly, when the group was gathered.
In World of Darkness, in that sense, there wasnt different speed of progressions, unless someone was really stealing the scene in the game sessions, wich was uncommon.
Therefore, situations in wich, one guy, playing 12 hours per day, as opposed to someone playing just 2 hours per day, meaning that one guy would evolve 6 times faster than the other, or even wider progression rates differences have not equal in the pen and paper game.
When someone would progress faster, it would be something like gaining 1 or 2 more experience points than the other players, and that would have to be justified and awarded in a fair way. The Storyteller was like a judge, it had certain elements to follow, but his decision was discritionary, freedom under certain guidances.
Having players being free to progress at their own rates, if it means drastic progression differences, would not be paralel to what World of Darkness stood for.
It would detract from the social focus. Considering most of the MMORPGs evolved from hack and slash "D&D" mechanics of progression, people expecting the same thing have no place in World of Darkness.
Here in Brazil, there are doctor/phd thesis about the differences of World of Darness pen and paper games to D&D or GURPS and other MMOs. People studying the effects of each RPG if used on education. The conclusions were that World of Darkness was the most suitable system to teach people anything. Just so you get an idea...
People tend to slice the MMORPGs into "sandboxes" or "themeparks", dicotomies between "UO"s or "Everquests", etc.
When we talk about World of Darkness, you would have to think out of the box, because it DOES NOT PERTAIN to EITHER. You would have to re-create what a MMORPG is, just to encompass World of Darkness.
When you translate WOD to a game online, it can become a genre of itself, pretty much like "social games" distinguish themselfs from MMOs. While WOD can still be designed as a traditional MMO, if it stays true to what it stand for in the pen and paper, it wont be anything like the 99% of MMORPGs that derived from D&D.
The only thing in the MMORPG genre that could potentially serve as a comparison parameter is EVE. Big coincidence, right? No.
When you talk about "omg, EVE is so hardcore", or "EVE Universe" and think its big or complex, you have no idea what World of Darkness is in comparison. There is nothing in the pen and paper RPGs that come closer to what World of Darkness means in terms of the roleplaying experience.
World of Darkness could be played without combat. I lost count how many play sessions didnt had physical combat on it. Can you conceive this idea in a MMORPG? Can you? Dont even come expecting something derived from D&D.
Off course World of Darkness will have combat, but it just goes to say that it was first and foremost about people thinking and socializing. In the pen and paper, most of the antagonism was held by the Storyteller against the player characters.
In World of Darkness, make no mistake, players will antagonize themselfs. It will be like EVE, to even more extreme degrees.
People will plot against each others, put others into tricky situations, blame them, destroy their reputations, there is a ridiculous range of gameplay that is barelly touched by EVE itself, that is the CORE of World of Darkness, specially in Vampire the Masquerade.
How will this play alongside design decisions regarding mechanics, combat and character power, progression? Expect people to lose their objective measurable powers for the sakes of other concepts of subjectively measurable power: social and intelectual, using the tools at our disposal, true alliances, betrayals...
The character capabilities itself are outweighted. In the pen and paper You dont play for your character power, you cant play for your character power, your character point is worthless due to the lack of persistance. The persistance is based on your group of friends and Storyteller.
You play to cause effects into the world and its society. You play to take think, make decisions, see how it affects the world and others. You know all the "EVE causality and buttlerfly effects" trailers/ adds you see? Thats World of Darkness.
Eternal Struggle for Power, Ancient games of Power, A tale of Personal Horror. Even EVE doesnt have the tools to support the World of Darkness premisse. Thats why you can expect even more "extreme" social design.
World of Darkness is about trying to survive. Its nothing about going out pewpewpew.
In World of Darkness you play stupid, you break the rules, you get hunted down by other players.
There will be global rules not a single player can break. There will be specific rules made by groups of players governing cities. The ultimate power is not power of your character. The ultimate power is political power over the vampiric society.
Power to cause effect into the other players: order them around (quests), banish them from the city, hunt them down: final death.
People break the immersion, do not roleplay, do not show maturity, the GAME itself will be designed to give players the tools to self regulate!
You get in playing GTA, leet speak, breaking the masquerade, attacking other kindred? Blood hunt on you, final death, gg, make another character. Thats how extreme we are talking about, EVE is kid's play compared to World of Darkness. Power wont be individual.
Power will be social, subjective, collective. It will be all about the community.
Character progression wont be a main element. You wont play to progress your character. You cannot expect that from World of Darkness.
Thats why there wont be a mechanic to "grind for 12 hours per day" get "uber" and go out killing everyone else. There isnt anything like that in the pen and paper.
If XP is not earned based ONLY on subscription time, it might be based on non repeatable "events".
A lot of interesting events will be running at all times, people will be able to dare venture on it, find out whats happening, go deeper, then get their reward. It will be experienced for the experience.
Progression wont be directly put into players hands, for them to "power up" at their disposal. Thats not what World of Darkness is about. When we played D&D, people could just go somewhere and kill Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins, for xp. Every critter had its xp value. It was stupid. But that is hack and slash D&D, it worked for them.
When we played World of Darkness, people would get xp after the session, based on what went on in the session. Doesnt matter how well combat was performed, it would only mean one extra xp point for the player envolved and that if it was really meaningfull combat.
Most of the Xp would derive from progressing into the immortal struggle of power and conflicts of interests....
The xp people get would revolve around how did they handled themselfs in the social chess game around them, how did they manage to survive after all. Not everything you would do would deserve a reward.
You could not fast forward your progression.
Also, dont expect classes, either. World of Darkness is about "mage tanks". They are immortal, with enough time they can learn everything they want to and if they focus on improving.
Also, you couldnt simply get "generic" points that would be spent into anything you wanted, despite not having used it in your actual roleplay session. Anything you spent points on have to be somewhat related to what you did, or the reason it allowed you to improve on that was coherent.
Therefore, there is an element into the pen and paper of "skill based progression".
But without the sub element of objective increments of skill based on repetition, "every x times you do something, you will get better", it was just a direct cause-effect requirement of progression.
The game wasnt about power. All characters were already powerfull from the start, atleast in the specific areas they choose to. The characters were ridiculous powerfull, and their enemies were even more powerfull, direct conflict against them was stupid, the around solutions (social/intelectual) were there, were encouraged. I expect the MMORPG to give players the tools for that as well.
What made the difference was how your character could cope with the world and other characters in it. It was about taking your time, playing smart, thinking every move ahead. What you were going to do, with whom you would talk, what would you try to achieve with that, why, what chain effect each action would relate. It was about thinking on consequences (BECAUSE THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES, THEY BETTER BRING THEM TO THE MMORPG), the whole immortal thing could go wrong with a shotgun to the face, or a simply butane gas+spray you bought for 3 bucks on the 24hs convenient store.
Direct physical conflicts didnt occurred often, and they rarelly did without the player foreseing them or being able to somehow avoid it or surviving it. Against humans, more often than not, our npcs, our pve, our cattle, maybe some grind on them, for food, resources, and maybe some experience after some events/quests.
But for the aforementioned reasons, dont expect the "mass murderer for the win, or kill a hundred million critter for xp and loots" mechanic.
If they give me 10 xp each human I kill... it would get very ugly very fast. CCP is not stupid. The guys at White Wolf arent stupid either. They wouldnt allow some stupid : "get more power now! must get more power nows!"
10/01/10 12:33:35 AM#5
Originally posted by thecrap
Good question actually.
I don't see a holy triad game here, and I would guess that it is at least a little more action based then what we are used to see.
But since I havn't really seen the gameplay yet anything is just speculations.
10/01/10 12:42:38 AM#6
The limited connection between action and reward was a big turnoff for me for EVE (of course the bigger one is that not a single gameplay activity was enjoyable, and most were excessively tedious and dull.)
So I voted no, and hope that less tedious mechanics will be at work with WoD.
Ugh after posting I had this terrible thought of a Vampire "mining" some random civilian by chewing on his neck for 15 minutes with zero player input -- with that mining laser (brrrraarrrr) sound effect. "Sweet my inventory updated to 2.84 pints of blood!" (talk about the least compelling vampire game ever...)
10/01/10 12:45:45 AM#7
I must say that i've tried EVE for a couple of months and the offline skill system was the main reason why i stoped playing, i found it completely pointless to spend a few hours of my spare time playing a game in which at the end i had no sense of accomplishment other then a few more credits.
Any decent player that actually enjoys playing a game(not the ones with ebay accounts) like to feel their characters evolve getting stronger through their own effort, its one thing to put some effort into your character and see it leveling-up and gaining new abilities but it another thing when we need to wait 2 or 3 weeks and sometimes over a month to get a new skill, it just gets boring and tiresome.
Sense my character evolution is almost out of the players control and i found my self several times just logging to add skills to the training queue and go offline again, that for me is not worth paying a monthly fee.
I see no reason why people who want to invest more time into the game should not level up faster, other wise it becomes a Pay-and-Wait game instead of a Pay-2-Play.
10/01/10 12:47:54 AM#8
Originally posted by Axehilt
Well, it wouldn't go against the lore even if a bit of mixing between the 2 probably would work best for me.
In Vampire you don't get that much rewarded for completing certain things even if it gives you a bonus XP (A day of playing usually give you 3-5 XP).
A system like Eve wouldn't work so well when they add Werewolfs since they need to do a lot of things to increase in rank.
The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.
10/01/10 12:52:53 AM#9
No thanks, progression should only come with actually playing the game.
Time based skill systems are boring as dirt for me. A large part of why I could never get into Eve.
10/01/10 1:50:50 AM#10
I edited my post above.
How to progress? Two ways:
TIME based + PLAY based
The progression derived from "playing", compared to the "time based" progression being 2 to 1, like... every 24 hours of not playing, equates to 12 hours of playing... therefore allowing for a maximum 36 hours of progression per day... for someone who played for 12 hours...
The actual values are raw ideas, it could be lowered for less progression gap between those who play more, than those who play less, just so its somewhat meaningfull to those who play, while allowing the casuals to keep up, arguably. Pleasing both sides, with the best of both worlds:
if you dont have time, you cannot complain, because its a living world that does not stop for you.
If you have time, you dont feel that your effort is meaningless for the sake of people who dont play.
Both sides are expected to be coherent and if even after said conception, one does not feel contempt, its because said one is completelly outside the reasonability range.
How does the Time based works?
Every x days, you get one experience point.
Characters can get fucked up real fast after some months, believe me.
Maybe they might implement some sort of reduced experience curve, making you wait longer and longer to get more experience points.
If a player gets 1 xp point every 2 days, after an year he would have 178 experience points. Ridiculously powerfull.
Enough to get 2 non clan disciplines to level 5 and then some... But for a one year character it sounds respectable enough. And thats only for the time based derived xp.
How does the Play based works?
You play the event, if your participation is considered meaningfull (conditions/requirements satisfied), you get a experience point. Lots of quests scattered around the world for players to solve.
In World of Darkness, the minimum unit of experience: 1 XP, was very meaningfull compared to any other RPG.
So if each casual experience period (like, 2 hours) wields 1 xp... We would have problems as well.
Even if the player plays 12 hours per day... his character should not get more than 4 experience points per day with the time based progression.
Lets say, most people will get only 1 xp every 2 days. Getting 4 xp per day, would still be 8 times faster.
If we give people 1 xp per day, it would still award 365 xp in a year, wich is like 4-5 disciplines at max level. It cant be.
So aiming for two lvl 5 non clan disciplines after an year is ok just with the time based, and plus some xp from the events/quests.
Everything would have to be "complex", in a way that: it doesnt end in one play session. People can finish parts of quests/events in one play session, but only be awarded for completion of it afterwards.
Also, the game cannot fragment xp points into 0.1 xp point, or 1.3 xp point, because that would be silly. Not at all related with the pen and paper... And just a silly excuse to bypass the "low minimum xp" award.
In other words, the pen and paper is designed so that the minimum xp award, is still enough to buy one talent point of level 1, thats its power, or 1/5 of the level 2 of the clan discipline... THAT THEY CANNOT CHANGE.
They have to work around with giving people just 1 xp every x days, instead of 0.3 every day or such. Either way, its laughable.
If they allow people to get xp through play time... many times more than people who just get the time based xp, it will still look ridiculous, because it will make the time based people look like they dont have enough, or it will make the player based look like they have too much....
think of 700 xp points after one year of hardcore playing... 10 disciplines...
And thats only imagining people will be able to play with characters up to 8° generation... If they allow people to somehow do diableries and reduce their generation... man... this is going to unbalance things... a lot...
wasting 3 blood points per turn is a lot already, even more than that... damn...
Hard Core Member
10/01/10 2:11:27 AM#11
Originally posted by Interesting
Firstly, i'm not familiar with WoD universe and its lore or its rules and so on. But to say it cannot go wrong is a very strong statement. Somewhere along the production line something will go wrong.
Second, you are a WoD veteran, you said it yourself on how many play sessions you ran. And mind you this isnt a personal attack but from skimming through (it's a wall of text, sorry) you sound like you have high expectation for WoD MMO. To me this is where it'll go wrong. Developer vs player perception will always, always go conflicted. Sometimes it went to far into production to reverse/repair it (other than complete revamp).
We all know how successful EvE is, and expected the same for WoD. For example, will it gonna "take" some of EvE traits etc. I want WoD to succeed, god knows how many lame AAA-title MMO went down the drain. Perhaps CCP would make this right. TBH i dont know. We are all excited with this news and the best we can do is lower our expectations and hope for the best.
To answer the OP, i would like to see time-based progression (perhaps taking EvE "ghost training" feature with it, crossed my fingers lol), since it'll take away the XP grind aspect from the game.
My two cents.
10/01/10 2:13:45 AM#12
I dont understand the hype on this game
The middle road is the place to be!
10/01/10 2:16:54 AM#13
Originally posted by MMOExposed
World of Darkness.
Sandbox style MMO potentially as well done as EVE Online.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
"A very special kind of stupidity"
10/01/10 2:39:43 AM#14
Originally posted by Rockgod99
That's not a "con", it's a "pro".
Cock-blocking power-gamers in a setting like WoD is exactly what you want to do.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
10/01/10 3:04:24 AM#15
Originally posted by yaminsux
You mention success or failure.
These are subjective. What I am expecting?
Im expecting 1/10 of EVE success and I will play it and I will justify my investment.
Of course it wont be aimed to to everyone.
This is a different kind of game. How can I put it.... World of Darkness makes 99% of the other MMORPGs look like they are not an MMORPG.
World of Darkness makes D&D itself and everything that derived from it do not look like an RPG AT ALL. Can you abstract this idea? Do you have any idea of what this means?
This is a completelly different thing. Its like the huge step people were waiting for the genre. All the "social games" that people are just recently talking about? World of Darkness goes beyond that.
Even if World of Darkness would be using APB failure shelf it would be a success. You might not understand why at first.99% of MMORPGs are about mass murdering of million criters. World of Darkness is about socializing.Its a different kind of game, of entertainment. It satisfies needs the current games cannot satisfy.
People in EVE Online just had a glimpse of what politics, socialization and roleplay is: player freedom, lack of automatic consequences and social tools.
In World of Darkness, the setting is even more dangerous. The vampires antagonize each other for a living, the basic premisse is conflict, its go out there and kill the Camarilla, go out there and dethrone the prince, go out there and CAUSE EFFECTS.
Cause effects. Cause effects.
In 99% of the other games you cannot cause effects. You cannot do this, you cannot do that. Why? Because you cant and that is it.
In World of Darkness thats the only thing you can expect from the game is that you WILL BE CAUSING EFFECTS and the world will hit you back with full force, the players will, their society and rules will.
Players will experience true power like never before.
Players will experience roleplay being embebed into the gameplay as a condition for survival. In EVE you see people trying to roleplay business people, trying to create an image of trustability, just to eventually betray everyone and run with their money. In World of Darkness, people will roleplay everything, just to survive.
You might not understand how it will work yet, because you dont know the setting, but just a short resume: in 99% MMORPGs, roleplay doesnt work because of metagame.
In World of Darkness because there is the "masquerade" if you are a vampire, you have to follow the rules of the vampiric society.
What does that mean? It means that anyone who comes and "metagame", breaks the vampiric rules.
Then the new player comes and say: but I dont care about vampires and all that, fuck that. This works in 99% of the other games. In World of Darkness there are consequences unbuilt into the setting, the lore, everywhere.
In EVE Online, power is not individual, its collective. One can barelly survive alone. Corporations rule sectors/ territories.
In World of Darkness, players control cities. Cities are controled by vampires, so that they can organize themselfs, their own social contract, they define who can do what, where, who can hunt where, who can kill, who can embrace, who is responsible for what.... You see. In normal MMORPGs, people just kill stuff and do scripted quests.
In World of Darkness, the game is the vampiric society. The prince and the elders of the city decide what EVERYBODY can or cant do. THAT SHEER POWER right there. If players DO NOT FOLLOW these rules (they will be allowed to do anything they want), bad stuff happens (the consequences will be derived from the collective power given to the players).
Thats embebed into the system itself. The MMORPG will just give people tools, to bridge that. People can move to other places, people can try to get the power, people can rebel, people can plot their way to the power, make alliances, fight their enemies in a hundred different ways. Player are free by default, but chained by other players rules, players who were keen enough to acquire the power, using the tools in the system CCP masterfully designed alongside White Wolf. You have a system of enforcing behavior socially, without having to relly on just "programming". We are talking about social engineering design embebbed into the setting, the lore.
Having power in World of Darkness means being responsible for deciding the rules, enforcing some of them or not. You bound desirable power with responsability. Its never seen before, not even in EVE. EVE rule their territories, but they normally only have "inside" people, in World of Darkness, a little group will rule a larger group in their territory and not the opposite.
Specially if they create an exception for Final Death (perma death) derived from breaking Camarilla or Prince rules.
The game might aknowledge that, flag the player, then socially people decide and vote, then they order quests to their subbordinates (everyone else), a "quest is created" (dinamic event), people go and HUNT the motherfucker who didnt roleplayed.
It could go from formal complaints, to formal notification, to banishment, to order to restraint and capture (torpor), to final death on sight. All of these derived from players socializing through the situation of some random 12 year old playing a Malkavian.
"We have to prevent this child of Cain to break the Masquerade and put in risk our whole existance: you are now authorized to exterminate him" (game flags character for final death for other players)...
I can see many ways of implement this in a meaningful and remarkable way.
10/01/10 3:15:01 AM#16
Originally posted by Malcanis
Exactly. 100% certain.
In World of Darkness, character progression derived from stats is a minuscule fragment.
Character progression is mainly social, political, economical. Everything he gains, can be lost in a blink of an eye, EVEN his immortal life.
There is no "Oh, lets train hard and get strong Goku style". Your power is in your blood, it doesnt get stronger by doing push ups.
The only thing that remotelly evolves as fast as humans organic system is the knowledge, studying/learning.
There is no "abstracted" levels. "Oh, Im LEVEL 60, level cap"
There isnt POWER CAPS EITHER. NONE WHATSOEVER.
In World of Darkness there is no balance either.
People with mental or social powers cannot expect to get in a fight and win, and there is a BUNCH of CLANS that have no physical disciplines or intended powers.
We have years ahead of us before the game gets released and it will be really tough having to crack people's skulls trying to flush their brains out of their steryotiped MMORPG expectations.
This is not Dark Eden. (Diablo with vampires)
This is more like EVE with Bloodlines gameplay in big gta like cities.
"A very special kind of stupidity"
10/01/10 4:38:16 AM#17
Originally posted by Interesting
Quoting an understatement. Hell hath no fury like an MMOer who, having cried endlessly for an "Original game, not just another WoW clone" gets an original game that's not just another WoW clone.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
10/01/10 7:24:18 AM#18
damn that is an over-excited fan boy lol.
Well i have no idea what the game is all about, but i can tell you this all the things your saying about "your not going to get stronger by doing pushups because its in your blood" well that doesn't work for 99% of the games, it works with EVE because there are no skills or abilities in that game its all about the ship.
In a typical RPG its about a hero/character and offline advancement makes no sense, a hunter won't learn how to do a crippling shot without having gained experience with a weapon first.
Another thing is your talking about stuff like players making the rules,politics and all that, its great on paper but hard to implement and horrible on practice because in the end we are talking about a game, people come to play what your saying requires a lot of hardcore commitment from several(hundreds?) players who's life would be managing the political aspects of the game alone and not actually playing it, this would restrict the target audience to a very small number of players that could be considered Hardcore Role Players, and those would never be enough to sustain the gaming company and all their expenses.
Again i must say that i have no idea what the game is all about, and i just have the info given in the thread.
Hard Core Member
Its better to be quiet and perceived as stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
10/01/10 7:29:09 AM#19
You apparently fail to realize that EVE Online is almost entirely run by player politics and territorial warfare between corporations and alliances so there's a proof it can work in an MMO. No one's saying these things are mandatory for a good game experience and most players definitely aren't involved in it on the higher level (actually managing corporations), but it is very rewarding for those who do. It's possible and I think most of us are expecting something different from WoD MMO purely on the grounds that CCP is working on it.
Nature without Technology is little more than animals running about.
10/01/10 7:34:01 AM#20
Originally posted by Rockgod99
I had to vote no for one simple con inhearent in that system. You can never reach an even skill point playing field against people that came before you. Regardless of how much work you actually do in game.
In the WoD setting, those who work harder learn more. That's just something you can't do in EVE.