Originally posted by gandales

Shooters have been almost the same for years and there have not been major complains. The problem with mmo is not completely attibutable to devs but also to habits of the gamer who goes over content as a torch. Before, most gamers dealt with timesink but now they cry everytime something takes long time and when a game decides to take out timesinks then they complain about having nothing to do.

 

 

The problem is the those who complain about timesinks are not the same as those who complain about having nothing to do

ex.: some are happy with how things are....some are not....those who are not complain....things change....people who were happy, are not anymore because of the changes applied....new unhappy people complain...things change again......Vicious Circle

Originally posted by artemisentr4

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by artemisentr4

We are seeing movement in the right direction in the future. SWTOR is bringing actual choice and story that will change what quests you get. So the choice is final. If you make a bad choice, you can not go back. The NPC you killed is dead, never to come back. So you will never see anything from that quest line again, but it will open up other quest lines that wouldn't have been there. So choice will matter and effect the game for you character.

GW2 is allowing players to create their own story and have NPC's react to this story. And taking what was learned from WAR with public quests and creating dynamic quests for everyone in the area. Creating a world that will change, but not be a lasting change. The events will start over from time to time so others can experience the same thing.

So depending on how these features are accepted over the next couple of years. We may see a company taking these ideas and putting them all into one game. It would be nice to see a game with a unique story for your character with choice that matters. Have this story effect how the NPC's in the world react to you. Then have the open world full of dynamic events that occure and change the world as you travel through it.

This is where the OP could have some of his ideas with building keeps or towns that once built, spawn random dynamic events that would have to be reacted to by the players. Including world events where many players would need to show up to defeat. Add in PvP with the dynamic events along with the rest and you could have a very good game. Or a game rejected because it is too different. It is a chance that requires investment. So only the people with the money know.

 Thinking GW2 or SWtOR will bring a lot of innovation is exactly what I was referring to about people latching on to the next AAA title being released thinking it will change everything.

 Did I say Innovate anywhere? No, it is an evolution of current standards. No innovation because the masses are not ready for it as the OP states. What I like about SWTOR evolution is questing that matters. Choice that is final with no going back. The fact that you could play the same class and pick different choice and see different content. Never been done in an MMO. But it is not innovative, it is an evolution of the questing and leveling process. It is what Blizzard did with taking from EQ and adding in their own ideas. They evolved as BW will evolve a bit more. This evolution of story I would like to see in an innovative game.

 There have been quests in Asheron's Call where you made a choice and your character was stuck with it forever, SW:tOR is not the first game ot do it so therefore it is not an evolution of any kind.

Here's what happens with choices that stick. People figure out which path leads to the best rewards or is the easiest to complete. Then the write-up is put online and the majority follow it from then on out = no more people making choices.

Originally posted by Isaak

[quote] Oh getting rid of dedicated healers is gonna be a mess in the end. Watch the one thing u shouldnt change in an mmo is the trinity, Tank , dps, healer, roles. Change them god knows what kinda caos will insue. [/quote]

 

But figuring out a way to do an RPG without the holy trinity would be an inovative leap. It could be done, but would take a lot of careful balancing.

For example, in many paper and dice RPG's, when you get to 0, you are not dead, but incapacitated. You must get to negative your constitution stat in order to be dead.  Any Joe with a bandage and basic knowledge can stabalize a bleeding victim (depending on the severity, of course). Add in some magic poutlice/potions and you get to revive someone.  Anyway, I think what people want is the flexibility of a GM/DM of your traidtional paper/dice RPG but in 3d on a computer.

 I sometimes wonder how a community based around MMOs can know so little about MMOs.

Asheron's Call does not use the holy trinity and it is a blast to play. Due to the skill, instead of class, system and with the fact that you can be a magic user and wear plate armor if you want, there isn't even close to a holy trinity. There are just people destroying creatures, taking damage, and healing themselves all as one unit. I truly find the gameplay far more enjoyable then the "holy trinity" games and this MMO has been around for 11 years. So it would not be an innovative leap for another game to not have a holy trinity.

The stuff that people want to see done differently has been done differently in several games. The problem is most of them only THINK they want it done differently which is why they aren't out playing those games that are different. They keep buying the games that are the same as the previous because deep down that is what they are comfortable playing.

Maybe if we could get some more games without magic it would bring in some new mmorpg players.  Besides this, religion has no place in gaming, it is not the reason for this post.  Just some variety in the field would be nice, not so much magic, alchemy, potions, spells, etc.

I would like to see some one break the mold, I have been playing mmo's since 1997, I like all kinds of games, but I have to say I am really burned out on sword and baord fantasy games, how many more ways can we swing a sword and kill an orc /sigh, maybe with the new band width and hard ware coming down the pike, gaming companies can do some things they have had to hold back on..break out of these dark times...  I do belive the standard pay structures for mmo's on the western market is changing, I can see  a day where the old standard 15 bucks a month is an option or gone all together... for monthly plans with a twist to steal phrase.. ;)

Originally posted by Rohn

Interesting article.

Unfortunately, the MMO community isn't a homogeneous entity.  Its opinions and tastes have diversified over the years - so much so, that it's impossible to satisfy them all, because some MMO staples are diametrically opposed to others.

In short, one man's "shot in the arm" is another man's "MMO blasphemy".  And, each will believe that his opinion is indisputable fact.

^This

One of the smartest things I've read on these forums, which proves that there is still some intelligent life left on these forums.

Which, leads into my next point; WoW. IMO WoW is a victim to the very monster it created as it has been 'dummied down' over time to appease the dumb and lazy that its mass popularity has since attracted. Let's face it, the game the author describes can never exist because unfortunately, when WoW broke into the realm of the general public with its immense popularity, it brought with it a breed of new and lazy gamer of inferior intelligence.

That's not to say all those who are new to gaming are dumb and lazy, but the more and more people you mix into the pot, the more mediocre the pot becomes.

In addition, this new booming society of players, like the majority of the public in general, is spoiled. New and innovative usually = learning curve and this new generation of gamer does not like the requirement learning entails. Therefore, either the developers conjure up a product that meets the needs of these zombies or they are eventually forced into simplifying the product they've created in order to squelch the complaints that arise from the masses. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and as many of you are aware, we are now, each of us, living amongst a plethora of squeaks.

And, why should they be quiet, when the only alternative is to... learn, GASP!

I have to say that this is an excellent article! MMO's do need a shot in the arm (or kick in the a$$ depending on your point of view). There is nothing on the horizon that is even remotely hints at innovation, evolution, or anything else we haven't seen before. I only hold out hope for a couple titles that I haven't heard many details about. I don't expect much however. WoW has diligently dug a mass grave for anything different.

Originally posted by Isaak

[quote] Oh getting rid of dedicated healers is gonna be a mess in the end. Watch the one thing u shouldnt change in an mmo is the trinity, Tank , dps, healer, roles. Change them god knows what kinda caos will insue. [/quote]

 

But figuring out a way to do an RPG without the holy trinity would be an inovative leap. It could be done, but would take a lot of careful balancing.

For example, in many paper and dice RPG's, when you get to 0, you are not dead, but incapacitated. You must get to negative your constitution stat in order to be dead.  Any Joe with a bandage and basic knowledge can stabalize a bleeding victim (depending on the severity, of course). Add in some magic poutlice/potions and you get to revive someone.  Anyway, I think what people want is the flexibility of a GM/DM of your traidtional paper/dice RPG but in 3d on a computer.

Honestly, sometimes I think MMO's biggest enemy is their pen, paper, and dice roots. The more you involve RNG in combat, the fewer design options you leave yourself.

There's nothing innovative about a non-trinity game - it just falls outside the "Party vs. Big Boss" setup that so many people are familiar with. As soon as you get into that setup, in a combat system that's basically a graphical representation of dice-rolling, you're halfway pigeon-holed at that point. Characters WILL unavoidably get hurt, and will thus need to be healed, which necessitates builds optimized towards those two roles. You can spread the roles around and give them new names, but they don't disappear. You need to reduce the RNG factor, ideally replacing it with skill.

Right now, I'm playing Vindictus and there aren't any healer characters (one to be released, but it's going to fall pretty far outside the typical healer design) - you learn to dodge or block attacks, or failing that, try to find five free seconds to chug a potion. There also aren't any "tanks", because the bosses can't be arsed to concentrate on who you want them to. At most, you can do enough damage to temporarily get the boss' attention away from a recovering team member. You can do a boss fight without getting touched, or you can get curb-stomped in ten seconds. But neither happens based solely on your build or some mysterious RNG in the background.

Another game that immediately comes to mind is PotBS - where you can factor in issues like wind, position, and firing angles to beat out a superior opponents (both PvE and PvP, for that matter). No trinity there either. Also a lot less RNG involved.

I don't really like seeing the griping about how "newer" MMO players are stupid and can't be bothered to learn anything new or difficult, but right now the Vindictus forums have threads full of people whining about how hard even the earlier bosses are, while others are soloing raid bosses. I remember another MMO where there was outrage that the tanking class didn't have a "taunt" skill that they could hotkey/spam, and it was too difficult to work with aggro-boosting talents and equipment. But at the very least, I'm inclined to agree that a lot of MMO players, for all their protests and claims, don't really want anything new in their games, much less a "shot in the arm". And for all the criticisms about copying WoW, I suspect that developers know this too.

Originally posted by MrcdesOwnr.

And, why should they be quiet, when the only alternative is to... learn, GASP!

Great post!

Learn is the word.  Learning curve is the problem.  I had a web site game reviewer (not from here) in a beta test last year. (paraphrased)  "ZOMG, go back to alpha I can't even find my weapon".

The 12  year old neighbor kid played it and did fine!   So, what is wrong with this picture?

I do have to admit, an easier curve and less complicated UI is the direction I went with my new work.  In a way it really bites, but the more MMORPGs become "mass appeal" the more they have to be adjusted for the playerbase.

I think CoX went in the right direction when they gave us morality and the ability to choose our own side or a shade of grey in between (vigilante/rogue). It's not a complete innovation, but it certainly is a step in the right direction, and they continue to make great strides in scripting to create dramatic effect. In seeing what CoX is able to "tack on" to the original model, it gives me great hope for a game that incorporates the best storytelling elements as well as the ability to "branch" a bit. Eventually, there will be choices within instances that can create multiple outcomes and rewards.  It could be a "very good thing."  I'm willing to wait and see...

MMOs don'rt make a person think any more - you get bright icons to show you where the quests are, an arrow to point you toward the quest target, you know exactly what to do to find a particular item and you have a limited selection of character types you can play. It's all spoonfed to you and the majority of the existing population of MMO gamers know nothing else.

Games like Asheron's Call made you think. You had to ask around, either NPCs or the Community to find quests, or learn about where dungeons were. You had to explore to find your prefered hunting grounds, or a route through a mountain range and you felt the thrill when you discovered something you didn't know about, like a mini-dungeon, new portal or spawn point for plants etc.

It's all too easy now. Our brains are not being challenged so we expect less, or expect more and are disappointed when developers deliver something aimed at the biggest market possible (ie: easier).

It's all very "meh" at the moment.....waiting and hoping for something in the future.

Originally posted by maxtlion

It's all too easy now. Our brains are not being challenged so we expect less, or expect more and are disappointed when developers deliver something aimed at the biggest market possible (ie: easier).

It's all very "meh" at the moment.....waiting and hoping for something in the future.

 

Very much these. Sadly, your hope for things to improve I fear will take a long time to bear fruit. The stupid "Casual" Gamer is endemic in todays society. Im all for having games for casual gamers, just dont neglect the gamers that created the market. By all means, pander to the plebian masses who prefer a rollercoaster ride where they follow the big shiny bouncing ball from point A through to point B, and dont challenge them enough for them to get frustrated, but dont make that the only option in a market filled with easymode game for lazy gamers.

Sadly, I started with WoW, just before Wrath was released, so my MMO expereince is severely lacking, however I did meet some amazing people who made it fun, I think that is what I have been seeking since. People that arent lazy and stupid and stand in fire. I fear the casuals will never really be dissuaded from gaming. I just hope that a developer finally decides to make a game that they want, and not try to attract the WoW crowd of lazy gamer by making the game more accessible.

I dont mind reading the quests, following the text in the journal to figure out my next location. Hunting things down by myself, rather than entering a new zone and running from Shiny sparky halo/icon to next shiny sparky halo/icon over the NPC's heads. I like that games used to challenge the gamer to think for himself, I miss that. Probably Nostalgia, and I need to schedule my labotomy so that I can enjoy the new wave of gaming, Gaming 2.0 (For Retards By Retards)

Kill off WoW, simple as that.

WoW popularity is the reason why MMOs have stagnate. It's pathetic that the MMOs most difference from WoW came before or around the same time WoW came out.

Like EVE and Pre-CU SWG.

So stop being so supportive of the worst MMO in history, it's worst because of how much it has stagnate the MMO genre.

Originally posted by Tarsidous

 

Now, here’s the big question, where did WoW get its mechanics from? Simple, from the pen and paper RPG. EverQuest 1 and 2, LOTRO, every single dice roll game comes from good old Dungeons and Dragons. That is why you don’t see a whole lot of back end innovation in MMOs. They’re all based on paper. It’s not a huge deal though, mainly because it works. CCP’s system isn’t based on dice rolls. I haven’t quite figured out what it’s based on, but I like it.

 

I was under the "Mistaken?" impression that Warcraft (Orcs vs Humans, the RTS) was a rippoff/homage/aborted licence quick change the names, of a Warhammer game, which spawned WoW. The Warhammer game being a table top Dice and MIniatures game (Still dice rolls and a rulebook)

To get away from pen an paper roots, would mean developing a new system, im all for new systems, Fallout began with GURPS, then the adult nature of the game had them pull backing, and make SPECIAL, but heavily influenced by GURPS, albeit pen and paper, replaced with a modified pen and paper system.

I am unsure as to what kind of system could be employed that doesnt adhere to a set rulebook, and that considers the Attackers points, vs the defenders points on some scale (Pen and Paper) with a roll to determine if the attack is a miss/success/critical-overpower. You could remove critical hits, and have every shot be a hit, but then a Tank unit would be useless as the ability to absorb or diminish incoming damage is reduced due to every hit being a hit. But getting away from the Trinity or Tank-DPS-Heals would be refreshing.

Killing of WoW would not be the answer, keeping it alive is in our best interest. If a new game is released, and WoW was shut down, the ignorant casual cash cow masses would migrate, and turn the next game into a foetid swamp akin to WoW with all the whining and crying for it to be made easier. Keeping WoW alive, and of interest to the lazy gamer is in the interest of allowing other games to live with a community not full of ignorant and lazy people. Slowly we can integrate them, and educate them over time, until such a point as they realize how bad WoW is for them, and WoW dies a slow death due to its community learning, improving, and leaving due to developing a more refined taste.

Originally posted by Czzarre

IN addition MMO have lost something intangible but important. There is no sense of "I can become something special" in MMOs. SOme of that is the player base as we change over time. I think we as players are communicating less, grouping less, less online interaction.

But from the game's standpoint  there is little way for someone to truely stand out. Armor and weapons are felt to be the result of a favorable roll rather than an epic encounter. Player Rankings seem flat and untainable to most players.

We need to find a way (both developer and player) to recapture the 'Magic' of playing.

 What exactly do you want?  I don't see a specific.

Plus, those early games people were wandering around figuring out the very basics.  After all these years, a basic movement system or combat system isn't going to seem magical.  It's like your first beer vs your 5000th beer.  Beer is not magically going to be like your first beer. You have to move on to whole new areas (ie not video games).

i might be weird but i want the old complex mmos back, but with a shinier graphic. I want the old grind back (not Asian mmo style grind). I don't want to be able to reach cap lvl in 2 months playing casually.

I'm all for new and innovative features,but for me at least, all they did was dumbing down mmos with a very few exceptions.

I do get they are made now for a larger audience, but i want options. Right now my only optons seems to be EVE (not my cup of tea), Anarchy Online (low population due to old as hell and with a long overdue graphic update) Fallen Earth (still needs some tweaking but they are on the right path) and maybe Atlantica Online due to its different somewhat complex combat style (it was nice in the beginning but now it's a pay 2 win game like 90% of the f2p games)

Reading thru the posts have a good and clear theme, the player is the problem not the game.  L2P has perhaps been totally forgotten under someone else's mindset.  We want teh shinines and we want them right now.  "I can get the best gear on my XBox360 in an hour and I expect the same from this MMO.  It's just a game."  /facepalm  Sound familiar?  We are breeding a "get it fast and move on" gamer from what I see.  I've seen that same mentality thru 13 different MMO's over the 14 years I've been actively gaming.  In my own perspective, it's like I watched the Counterstrike guys infiltrate into an MMO, try to rush the front, get waxed on an epic scale, whine, piss, and grief why they can't get the shiney reward in an hour, then virally infect the rest of the players around them with fabricated facts.  I digress though.  Simple terms is thus..  You can't make 100% of players happy 100% of the time.  Just fact.  As for the WoW haters, 11 million subs, not neccarily players, doesn't make for a good arguement.  Blizz found a model that works for them.  If your content in using that as an example then why not include Farmville into the mix?  How large is that player base and amount of cash Zynga is pulling in from the cash shops?  Models, models, models...  Big picture, it's about what the player will pay for.  As much as people complain about some of the big devs, players still buy their games.  It's about the cash, mates.  Players will get pissed off and quit playing, pubs got their money, and another player will be there to fill the gap. 

I couldn't agree more that MMOs have become terribly stale....But, I have no answers...

Take PlanetSide.....Totally different, a full-blown MMO FPS with literally HUNDREDS of people on-screen and engaged in real-time, FPS-style combat....and it flopped around like a Pentecostal...........

I'm not really sure what it would take to inject a little new life and innovation into the MMO genre...It seems like most games that have tried to break out of the same old mold have failed.....