I'd say I'm about as old timer as you can get and sandboxes are pretty shit to me.

Not because of the gameplay, but because most of them released nowhere near finished and promise things that never happen.

Originally posted by caalem

I'd say I'm about as old timer as you can get and sandboxes are pretty shit to me.

 

Not because of the gameplay, but because most of them released nowhere near finished and promise things that never happen.

So you don't consider GTA or red dead redemption sandbox games?

No, it's a matter of time as well as the genre of mmorpg's going through the stages towards true, great sandbox games being made workable and wanted.

1. The technology, success and investment that is currently refining theme-park games will eventually tend towards sandbox.

2. Think back to the quaint attitudes of the past in eg Western cultures and compare them to the post-modern attitudes in culture today, this will be similar in mmorpg games and there will be a demand, especially when the superhero-theme of combat exhausts itself.

Originally posted by Rockgod99
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Rockgod99
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.

 

You are way off OP. the reason Sandbox MMO fail, because in most cases, the game is ether a PvP Focus MMO, or a Pure PvE focus MMO. Never do Sandbox MMO developers try to go for both crowds like WoW has. Also lets not forget the fact that Sandbox Developer has to add Harsh DP to their game because they lack any way to make gameplay actually be Challenging since the developers dont have much control over the gameplay other than codes.

Originally posted by Rockgod99

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Rockgod99
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.

 

You are way off OP. the reason Sandbox MMO fail, because in most cases, the game is ether a PvP Focus MMO, or a Pure PvE focus MMO. Never do Sandbox MMO developers try to go for both crowds like WoW has. Also lets not forget the fact that Sandbox Developer has to add Harsh DP to their game because they lack any way to make gameplay actually be Challenging since the developers dont have much control over the gameplay other than codes.

 

Did you just say WoW appeals to pvpers? Anyway... The games are lacking in pve or pvp because their underfunded. Why are they underfunded because these are Indy developers and AAA developers won't bother why? Because people won't pay to be "Uncle Owen"

Originally posted by Rockgod99
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.

It's the opposite for me.  I feel far more accomplished and individual as an expert crafter of some obscure knick knacks than as yet another epic hero with a big sword who has followed an endless chain of being bossed around by NPCs, fetching, carrying, and killing.

Ok, aside from predictions about sandbox games that will be great in the future (unmade), current sandbox games that are made are evidently not as popular as theme-park games.

OP hypothesis: "Everyone (ie majority of paying players) want to be a superhero, which is what you can do in a theme-park game, but not what you can (easily or as clearly) do in a sandbox game".

In a nut shell, one type of game is more accessible to the wants/satisfactions of most players than the others. This could be described as the difference between:

Casual vs Hardcore: See Gamasutra

The distinction is accessibility. A game that starts easy is accessible, even if it ends hard. But knowing this doesn't exactly give us any revolutionary insight. To truly understand casual, we must first dig deep into specifically what makes a game inaccessible -- what makes it hardcore.

Six things that make a game hardcore:

1. Difficult controls
2. Overwhelming options
3. Prerequisite knowledge
4. Abstract memorization
5. Unclear goals
6. Unclear solutions

Six things that do not make a game hardcore:

1. Challenge
2. Trial and Error
3. Strategy
4. Theme
5. Repetition
6. Depth / Graduated objectives

Old Timer and Masses is a bit odd to mix into one post.

When Ultima Online and EverQuest launched what we considered "masses" would be considered a flop for opening box sales now.

EverQuest had a higher subscriber base than Ultima Online.   Personally I preferred Ultima Online...

So of course many games followed EQ's approach to game design.

In the end you have two factors

1) The most common game design you see is the EQ type of design.

2) Many current designers also played the EQ style of game.

So trying to introduce a non standard game to the market you have to over come player perception.   Tie that into product development costs and investors aren't willing to risk it.

*note* I call it the EQ style of game design because its simply easier and many people played or heard of EQ.  Beyond MMO's it is the staple of cprg design classes and levels.

The reason sandbox mmo's don't appeal is one thing. A sandbox takes effort to play. People are lazy.

What is the most popular? A theme park where you are held by the hand and leveling is easy.

Look at any complaint thread with a sandbox.(or almost any mmo) Most say, "I don't know what to do." "Nothing is telling me where to go." "I can't figure this out."

And my favorite complaint, "This takes too much effort. Can't the devs make this easier?" 

Any of this sound familiar?

Originally posted by weslubow

The reason sandbox mmo's don't appeal is one thing. A sandbox takes effort to play. People are lazy.

What is the most popular? A theme park where you are held by the hand and leveling is easy.

Look at any complaint thread with a sandbox.(or almost any mmo) Most say, "I don't know what to do." "Nothing is telling me where to go." "I can't figure this out."

And my favorite complaint, "This takes too much effort. Can't the devs make this easier?" 

Any of this sound familiar?

 No...Usually the complaint I hear is that it is boring....which I typically agree with.  Most Sandboxes are about repetative action same as theme parks, but Theme parks just  try to use story and different appearances for the grind.

What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.

In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.

Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.

Originally posted by Sroek

What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.

In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.

Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.

Yes. Thank you for explaining this.

Originally posted by Sroek

What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.

In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.

Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.

 I would have to say both are foolish statements.  Theme parks give the illusion that you are the hero through a story like a single player RPG.  Creating the epic feel by styling the story toward you.  Sandboxes create the illusion that you are changing the game by your actions, but really the game does not change you just have the notion that you can. 

How can you compair "Hero" with infamous players that are basically assholes to others?  There is a hugh difference.

one thing I would add...if infamous player is what you are after then I would think that WoW's Leroy Jenkins is possibly the most famous player in the world and a "hero" by your standards.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Sroek

What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.

In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.

Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.

Yes. Thank you for explaining this.

No problem.

One of the reasons most people are generally adverse to sandbox MMOs is because they don't like being thrown into a vast open-ended world with no semblance of how to approach the game. Not to sound condescending, but most people just want to be told what to do and how to do it because it requires less evaluation, scheming and cognition, which could be cumbersome to someone who simply wants to relax and feel like they've accomplished something clearcut and displayed as an achievement in bold letters on the screen.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Sroek

What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.

In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.

Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.

 I would have to say both are foolish statements.  Theme parks give the illusion that you are the hero through a story like a single player RPG.  Creating the epic feel by styling the story toward you.  Sandboxes create the illusion that you are changing the game by your actions, but really the game does not change you just have the notion that you can. 

How can you compair "Hero" with infamous players that are basically assholes to others?  There is a hugh difference.

What I read here was:

"I've never played a sandbox MMO."

Yes, you can actually change the game for many different people in a sandbox. It's pretty much the definition of it. No, you're not changing game mechanics, that would be a retarded statement (unless you take Second Life or Blue Mars into consideration, then yes you can change the game mechanics). But, a sandbox is a game where tools are given to you to change things within the game. If you're good enough, your changes could effect hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of players. 

"Hero" is a relative term btw. What's a "Hero" to one person is the devil to someone else. In themepark game, the lines are clearly drawn between good and evil. In a Sandbox, the lines are created by the players themselves.

Col. Custer was an American Hero at the time, but to Native Americans he was the devil in the flesh.