I either feel way too behind with old games like Ultima Online, Everquest 2, EVE Online or I can't find variety of fun, innovative  things in recently released games. Some of those fun things for me used to be player housing, character development (which seems so limited now), fun crafting, freedom and meaningful PvP, and overall feeling like I am literally part of the world.

Discuss released games only and guess FFXIV can count too. My biggest problem with MMORPG's is I don't find the drive, the will as before to go "hardcore" on a current MMORPG.

Your comment about feeling behind catches my eye.   This conflict between seniority and barriers-to-entry is an interesting topic to me.  How can a game reward vets for their persistence without putting newbies at the base of depressingly high mountain at same time?

( I fear I haven't played enough different games through to their endgame to give you any informed suggestions )

I had to take a long break from MMOs to be able to grind again. Currently went back to Anarchy Online and have been very much enjoying leveling and twinking new characters. try playing some single player games or even multiplayer non MMOs like SC2 to give yourself a break.

I really enjoy grinding in Guild Wars(yeah not an mmo) because it's like honing an art (unless you just copy builds) It's fun seeing how much you can do and the ways you can do it.

I also enjoyed grinding in Fallen Earth(beta). Basically found an ideal situation in which mobs were like free XP.

I think the crafting aspect of FFXIV makes the grind more enjoyable. The loot you get can be used to create stuff, making the grind profitable. I see PvE as resource gathering in that game.

The only game I played that has housing was Vanguard. Gathering the materials for a house, guild hall, or a ship was a monumental grind. It was fun and the gathering we did in groups so it made it social also.

Asheron's Call all the way.

The loot system means that while you are out "grinding" your levels that next kill could have the best weapon/piece of gear on it.

The rare system that has been recently updated means any creature in the game could drop that truly amazing rare.

Monthly content updates means constantly having new things to do. 11 years worth of these updates means there is a ton of content in game to explore.

Designing my character to fit my playstyle instead of having to be stuck with class X and perform role B.

Truly the best game out there.

I would say lineage 2, though the separate grind to make in game money was what did me in.

Originally posted by maplestone

Your comment about feeling behind catches my eye.   This conflict between seniority and barriers-to-entry is an interesting topic to me.  How can a game reward vets for their persistence without putting newbies at the base of depressingly high mountain at same time?

( I fear I haven't played enough different games through to their endgame to give you any informed suggestions )

 The problem only occurs when the player has the wrong mindset.

People join into existing MMOs, and due to the WoW system of "The game starts at max level" people approach all MMOs that way now. So they try to power game to the max level which becomes boring and tedious.

In order to enjoy an MMO you can't think "I have to be level X to have fun." Instead you have to think "I'll play to have fun and not worry about levels." Then you truly start exploring content and the world and everything is instantly far more enjoyable.

The "I want what that guy has who's been playing for 5 years" mentality just leads to frustration and disappointment.

Snarlingwolf, I agree with most of your post (I tend to play soloish PvE so it's pretty easy for me to just focus on having fun - I just make sure I avoid any guides or spoilers and just explore the game as I encounter it).   But even a wander-the-path person like me faces this issue as soon as I start interacting with the community. 

There is a sort of subtle concept of "citizenship" - that you don't really have a place in the culture of the game until you have reached the endgame.  It comes out differently in different games.  Sometimes it's just a loneliness in the low-level parts of a world.  Sometimes strangers judge your words by the accomplishments of the character you play.  Sometimes there are mechanical barriers or reward that drive home a sense of "you are a second class player".

So although I agree that people should focus on the subjective enjoyment of each day they log in, I think that the dynamics of vet-newbie divisions can be a real point of friction in the community and a barrier to enjoying a game.

Originally posted by maplestone

Snarlingwolf, I agree with most of your post (I tend to play soloish PvE so it's pretty easy for me to just focus on having fun - I just make sure I avoid any guides or spoilers and just explore the game as I encounter it).   But even a wander-the-path person like me faces this issue as soon as I start interacting with the community. 

There is a sort of subtle concept of "citizenship" - that you don't really have a place in the culture of the game until you have reached the endgame.  It comes out differently in different games.  Sometimes it's just a loneliness in the low-level parts of a world.  Sometimes strangers judge your words by the accomplishments of the character you play.  Sometimes there are mechanical barriers or reward that drive home a sense of "you are a second class player".

So although I agree that people should focus on the subjective enjoyment of each day they log in, I think that the dynamics of vet-newbie divisions can be a real point of friction in the community and a barrier to enjoying a game.

 It's no different then having people on the street judging someone else because of how they look, what they wear, or who they are. You can't let those types of people bother you in any setting. I also have to say in all the MMOs I've played I have not noticed much of this.

There is the reverse of those people as well which should be brought into consideration. I've joined many MMOs and basically said "I'm new how's it going" and had people come help me and walk me through stuff just because they wanted to. I think in most games you'll find just as many of these people as the other kind.

The only game where it is probably bad (and a game I don't play because it has so many flaws) is WoW. Between the type of community that game has, along with stuff like gear score and 100% of the focus in design being on end-game, I am sure it is a significant issue there.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf (snipped)
 

I've joined many MMOs and basically said "I'm new how's it going" and had people come help me and walk me through stuff just because they wanted to.

I'm more of the "I'm new, please don't tell me *anything* I want to figure it all out for myself" type :)

( as for WoW, I honestly didn't find the community any better or worse than any other game I've tried - although admittedly I didn't do any dungeons which I hear is where the real friction between different playstyles comes up; the much-maligned WoW message boards are fluffy kittens next to the UO boards :)  )

But this is getting rather far off the original what-mature-game-has-the-best-grind-to-endgame topic of the thread.  Sorry.

Originally posted by terroni

I really enjoy grinding in Guild Wars(yeah not an mmo) because it's like honing an art (unless you just copy builds) It's fun seeing how much you can do and the ways you can do it.

[...]

Err, what exactly do you grind in GW? I hope you are not talking about the 20 levels needed to max your character...

I enjoyed the level grind in Lineage 2. When you got to different armor grades you felt accomplished. Also getting to pvp at higher levels made it all worth it.

Originally posted by scuubeedoo

Originally posted by terroni

I really enjoy grinding in Guild Wars(yeah not an mmo) because it's like honing an art (unless you just copy builds) It's fun seeing how much you can do and the ways you can do it.

[...]

Err, what exactly do you grind in GW? I hope you are not talking about the 20 levels needed to max your character...

I think the actual term is "Farming"(glorified grinding). Minotaurs, bosses, the like.

I really enjoyed grinding in Everquest 1, Vanguard and Aion. I like slow progression because it gives some sort of little rewards like "yeah finally another skill, armor or wooohooo I made it all the way to max lvl".

As much as I enjoy grinding the most important part for me is group grinding: I like playing with others working together in order to achieve a goal.  Did also like the faction grind back in burning crusade.

None grinding is stupid and immediatley turns me away from games

AoC was the only game I didnt mind grinding in. Combat was fast paced and somewhat interactive.

EQ2 grinding was fun to me, but only when playing with other really cool people. 

Grinding missions in Eve is about the worst grinding there is. I didn't know better at first and did it for much too long. 

None, grind is boring and pointless, shame P2P cant do without. actually F2P cant do without either in the hopes you buy anti grind pots etc,

original EQ.  spending hours sitting in RM, SK Spires, Guk, Sol A and B, getting to know the people you were grouping with.  Not go-go-go-kill-loot-go-go-go.  I miss that in todays speedfreak mmos.  I miss taking a corner of a dungeon, pulling mobs to a group waiting to kill, having to actually use CC, offtanking, and more knowledge of your class than 1, 2, 3 rotations.  I miss EQ, too bad I have a life of sorts now and can't afford to spend 5 hrs a night 5 nights a week raiding anymore, was the best 6 years of gaming I've had, since then it's been a shadowplay really.