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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » Understanding the Differences in PC and Console Development

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48 posts found
  ProfRed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 3557

 
OP  9/13/10 5:03:42 PM#41
Originally posted by Hrayr2148
Originally posted by crazynanny

 



Originally posted by Hrayr2148
If the PC UI is friendlier than the PS3 version, then why play it on the PS3?  IF you can use skills, access the menu, craft, gather, fish, explore far easier on the PC, then you essentially kill your PS3 market.
 



And why do You assume that easier to play with PC(mouse and keyboard) means harder to play with gamepad? After all it's all about personal preferences. BOTH PC and PS3 users have access to both gamepad and keyboard and mouse. Make two viable UIs(as default k+m for PC and pad for PS3) and let players choose. Wanna sit on couch with controller - fine. Wanna play with k + m on desk, here You go. But SE went lazy way and said play or buzz off. As for examples - Dragon Age is first title that springs to my mind that was also console game with perfect PC UI.


Ah one more thing(I might be wrong here), didn't FF XI have much more PC subscribers than console?

No.  Majority of FFXI players were japanese console players, or PC controller players.  The ui device of choice was the controller regardless of the system.

 

This game is designed for the japanese mmo console market, which has ZERO competition.  SE is the only company thatis making an mmo of note.  People in japan do no play mmos and they do not play using the PC.  If SE made this game more PC friendly and NA/EU players in mind, they would lose more than half of their desired demographic.

 

People really need to stop thinking SE/FFXIV is anything like the mmos released in the last 3-4 years (Aion, Warhammer, Aoc, Lotro, etc etc).  If people went into FFXIV thinking it was going to be like those games was sorely mistaken.  The mistake was the players, not SE.  Though, SE is horrible at public relations.  

I think it's more of  a cultural difference that NA players fail to grasp rather than anything else.  To give you an analogy, it's like senior citizens complaining that the Scions are too small and they need to make them bigger.  Well, senior citizens are not the demographic that scion is most after.  They are after the young, single, demographic who wants ot customize their ride.

It wouldn't make sense for Scion to change their product to cater to the senior citizens when their whole design philosophy was premised around the younger crowd.   Same thing in this situation... it's NA PC gamers using mouse/keyboard vs.  Japanese console gamers.

 

If an NA player played FFXI using a controller, then they already knew how FFXIV was going to turn out.  That's why FFXI players are not surprised, shocked or that much disapointed.  IT's par for the course for SE.

Great post.  I agree with this 100% and have been playing SE's games since I was 5 or 6 with FF1.  It can be bad and good the way they develop without seeming to communicate much.  I was very pleased with everything we got with FFXI while the general forum consensus and developer direction with WoW was the complete opposite of what I wanted.  For some WoW's progression was the greatest thing ever and it couldn't have been more opposite of what I saw as a good direction.

I think any game can be good for some and bad for some.  In general though I wanted to bring to light the difficulty with a large open streaming map, an MMORPG with tons of itemization, and the restricted ram and other aspects of developing on console and PC. 

Some people here seem to think I am an apologist or trying to stir something up but it couldn't be farther from the truth.  It is kind of pathetic actually.  I could care less if they don't like the game and have 0 interest in changing their minds.  Believe me when I say I don't want to play a game with these guys.  I am a programmer that has a BS in game design and development, and I have done code for console and PC at the same time and the limitations are so great that it completely turns off most amateur game programmers.  The scope of FFXIV on PC and Console is a very difficult and limited endeavor.  That is exactly why the PS3 version is delayed for 6 months.  The reason cited by the devs was mainly ram requirements and fitting what they already have in memory when it is as streamlined and optimized as it is.

Thanks for all the great feedback and solid discussion in this thread.  I am really proud of this site tonight!-

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

9/13/10 5:21:55 PM#42


Originally posted by Hrayr2148
No.  Majority of FFXI players were japanese console players, or PC controller players.  The ui device of choice was the controller regardless of the system.

Well this isn't the answer for my question though. I haven't asked about what was majority of used controllers(as considering FF XI UI design answer was obvious). I was asking about subscription numbers on PC vs PS 2, as I think I saw a chart somewhere here @forums.



This game is designed for the japanese mmo console market, which has ZERO competition.  SE is the only company thatis making an mmo of note.  People in japan do no play mmos and they do not play using the PC.  If SE made this game more PC friendly and NA/EU players in mind, they would lose more than half of their desired demographic.


Again, and why so? Why they'd loose half of their desired demographic if they had made PC friendly UI and a short tutorial? I really have no idea where are You taking those claims from. Especially considering You also say that on japanese console market they have ZERO competition...



People really need to stop thinking SE/FFXIV is anything like the mmos released in the last 3-4 years (Aion, Warhammer, Aoc, Lotro, etc etc).  If people went into FFXIV thinking it was going to be like those games was sorely mistaken.  The mistake was the players, not SE.  Though, SE is horrible at public relations.  
I think it's more of  a cultural difference that NA players fail to grasp rather than anything else.  To give you an analogy, it's like senior citizens complaining that the Scions are too small and they need to make them bigger.  Well, senior citizens are not the demographic that scion is most after.  They are after the young, single, demographic who wants ot customize their ride.
It wouldn't make sense for Scion to change their product to cater to the senior citizens when their whole design philosophy was premised around the younger crowd.   Same thing in this situation... it's NA PC gamers using mouse/keyboard vs.  Japanese console gamers.


If what You write here is true it's 100% SE fault for releasing this game outside Japan. And it's not people outside Japan that are mistaken(i.e. it's not their fault), they are just being mislead by SE. As simply as that. If a company releases product in my country I expect it to be functional for me, not some guy in Japan. Thus game gets much deserved negative reviews so far and there are so many "haters", as those are disappointed customers that discovered truth about product offered to also THEM(that is NA/EU people)

  User Deleted
9/13/10 5:26:22 PM#43
Originally posted by crazynanny

 


Originally posted by Hrayr2148
No.  Majority of FFXI players were japanese console players, or PC controller players.  The ui device of choice was the controller regardless of the system.


Well this isn't the answer for my question though. I haven't asked about what was majority of used controllers(as considering FF XI UI design answer was obvious). I was asking about subscription numbers on PC vs PS 2, as I think I saw a chart somewhere here @forums.

 



This game is designed for the japanese mmo console market, which has ZERO competition.  SE is the only company thatis making an mmo of note.  People in japan do no play mmos and they do not play using the PC.  If SE made this game more PC friendly and NA/EU players in mind, they would lose more than half of their desired demographic.


Again, and why so? Why they'd loose half of their desired demographic if they had made PC friendly UI and a short tutorial? I really have no idea where are You taking those claims from. Especially considering You also say that on japanese console market they have ZERO competition...

 



People really need to stop thinking SE/FFXIV is anything like the mmos released in the last 3-4 years (Aion, Warhammer, Aoc, Lotro, etc etc).  If people went into FFXIV thinking it was going to be like those games was sorely mistaken.  The mistake was the players, not SE.  Though, SE is horrible at public relations.  
I think it's more of  a cultural difference that NA players fail to grasp rather than anything else.  To give you an analogy, it's like senior citizens complaining that the Scions are too small and they need to make them bigger.  Well, senior citizens are not the demographic that scion is most after.  They are after the young, single, demographic who wants ot customize their ride.
It wouldn't make sense for Scion to change their product to cater to the senior citizens when their whole design philosophy was premised around the younger crowd.   Same thing in this situation... it's NA PC gamers using mouse/keyboard vs.  Japanese console gamers.



If what You write here is true it's 100% SE fault for releasing this game outside Japan. And it's not people outside Japan that are mistaken(i.e. it's not their fault), they are just being mislead by SE. As simply as that. If a company releases product in my country I expect it to be functional for me, not some guy in Japan. Thus game gets much deserved negative reviews so far and there are so many "haters", as those are disappointed customers that discovered truth about product offered to also THEM(that is NA/EU people)

It wouldn't make ANY sense to not release the game in NA and EU.  Yes, the game is designed for the console, but they shouldn't release it NA/EU because they don't need the extra money?

 

Let's say 75% of the game's subscribers are japanese players, so SE isn't going to release the game in NA or EU because 25% additional profit isn't worth it?  The only time it wouldn't be worht releasing the game here or EU is if the cost of the localizations (translations) is more than the potential profit.

 

If you have 100k subscribers in NA and 100k subscribers in EU, that more than makes it worthwhile to release in NA and EU.  Just because the UI isn't a carbon copy of WoW or any other western mmo, then it doesn't deserve to be released here?  Give me a break.

Btw, there are already 160k+ pre orders for the game in North America Alone.  That's pretty good for a game that was even designed for the NA audience.

 

Edit: Should Japanese players complain that Blizzard is arrogant and refuses to adapt the game to the console, so that japanese players can enjoy WoW using a controller?

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

9/13/10 5:34:37 PM#44


Originally posted by Hrayr2148
It wouldn't make ANY sense to not release the game in NA and EU.  Yes, the game is designed for the console, but they shouldn't release it NA/EU because they don't need the extra money?
 
Let's say 75% of the game's subscribers are japanese players, so SE isn't going to release the game in NA or EU because 25% additional profit isn't worth it?  The only time it wouldn't be worht releasing the game here or EU is if the cost of the localizations (translations) is more than the potential profit.
 
If you have 100k subscribers in NA and 100k subscribers in EU, that more than makes it worthwhile to release in NA and EU.  Just because the UI isn't a carbon copy of WoW or any other western mmo, then it doesn't deserve to be released here?  Give me a break.
Btw, there are already 160k+ pre orders for the game in North America Alone.  That's pretty good for a game that was even designed for the NA audience.


Apart for again not answering my question about Your claims, You just made Your previous point about cultural differences and people misunderstanding invalid. SE wan't more profit from NA/EU. People from NA/EU have their expectation, no matter how different from Japanese. It's SE job to deliver to all playerbase or suffer the bad reviews and company image. As simple as that.

  Uldah

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 165

9/13/10 5:39:28 PM#45
Originally posted by crazynanny


Originally posted by Hrayr2148
No.  Majority of FFXI players were japanese console players, or PC controller players.  The ui device of choice was the controller regardless of the system.

Well this isn't the answer for my question though. I haven't asked about what was majority of used controllers(as considering FF XI UI design answer was obvious). I was asking about subscription numbers on PC vs PS 2, as I think I saw a chart somewhere here @forums.



This game is designed for the japanese mmo console market, which has ZERO competition.  SE is the only company thatis making an mmo of note.  People in japan do no play mmos and they do not play using the PC.  If SE made this game more PC friendly and NA/EU players in mind, they would lose more than half of their desired demographic.


Again, and why so? Why they'd loose half of their desired demographic if they had made PC friendly UI and a short tutorial? I really have no idea where are You taking those claims from. Especially considering You also say that on japanese console market they have ZERO competition...



People really need to stop thinking SE/FFXIV is anything like the mmos released in the last 3-4 years (Aion, Warhammer, Aoc, Lotro, etc etc).  If people went into FFXIV thinking it was going to be like those games was sorely mistaken.  The mistake was the players, not SE.  Though, SE is horrible at public relations.  
I think it's more of  a cultural difference that NA players fail to grasp rather than anything else.  To give you an analogy, it's like senior citizens complaining that the Scions are too small and they need to make them bigger.  Well, senior citizens are not the demographic that scion is most after.  They are after the young, single, demographic who wants ot customize their ride.
It wouldn't make sense for Scion to change their product to cater to the senior citizens when their whole design philosophy was premised around the younger crowd.   Same thing in this situation... it's NA PC gamers using mouse/keyboard vs.  Japanese console gamers.


If what You write here is true it's 100% SE fault for releasing this game outside Japan. And it's not people outside Japan that are mistaken(i.e. it's not their fault), they are just being mislead by SE. As simply as that. If a company releases product in my country I expect it to be functional for me, not some guy in Japan. Thus game gets much deserved negative reviews so far and there are so many "haters", as those are disappointed customers that discovered truth about product offered to also THEM(that is NA/EU people)

 

Name one game that in this era that have ,(not pre wow, i played wow ,enjoyed it , in months i was done with content mostly bored out my mind , moved on to a more productive mmo, if you could call it that) marketed to a world wide audience and got good aceptance world wide.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ None, they arent even marketing outside of japan,at least not as much as other mmos up to date. It is funtional for everyone , but not everyone will like it, theres a diference.Is their choice to focus on one side of the table, you can like it or not, that choice is entirely up to you.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hrayr is right tought, you just have to see the interviews when the devs laugh when they get asked what they think about the complains about NA peeps about UI and such. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People need to stop runing for Maximun Defender of Justice on the MMO world, and instead try the game, like it ? purchase. Dont like it ? theres tons coming up soon. Try it by yourself , there is still time, or get a friend code from those with CE ordered.The asumptions the game have to be played with controler are wrong, controler at higer levels dont work like they should , unless you macro everythin.Forums never judge the games right ,everyone should try it by themselfs,and make a choice.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Btw im not runing for head of FF fanboy club,while im a fan i just find it amusing i dont see half the problems people claim there is on the game while im playing it right now.Or at least not as bad as they make it out to be. personally i hate the UI, but once the lag is gone , it should be down to aceptable levels. PS; not talking to you in particular on the second part of my post, so dont get offended , just talking my mind out while smoking on my laptop.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PS; idk why the forum make my posts look like a wall of text lol.so marked paragraphs with lines.
  terroni

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/10
Posts: 941

9/13/10 6:52:01 PM#46

I've been trying to justify design decisions to myself because of the knowledge that the PC is really an afterthought for this game.

What doesn't jive with me is the huge hardware requirements for the PC when the PS3s video chip is equivalent to a geforce 7800.

I think if SE opened up the PC's UI to modification a solution would be found in days.

Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.

  skeaser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3689

Don't die mad, just die.

9/13/10 6:58:19 PM#47

You forgot architecture.

PCs use x86/x64 PS3 uses cell. Need differenct instructions sent to each one; makes a little work for porting.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  ProfRed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/29/03
Posts: 3557

 
OP  9/14/10 1:20:52 AM#48
Originally posted by skeaser

You forgot architecture.

PCs use x86/x64 PS3 uses cell. Need differenct instructions sent to each one; makes a little work for porting.

Good point.  I think SE has spent a long time developing their crystal tools to make an API that optimizes using both of these, but it shouldn't be ignored either.  They have definitely had their troubles though in PC and Console games leading up to XIV especially noticeable in Last Remnant.

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